Britain cannot be blackmailed by EU over exit bill: minister

[aright]

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Actually, you find me in the French Pyrenees!

 

I have no plans to leave Thailand right now but I have acquired a place in Edinburgh and I have applied for Danish citizenship.

I know a great Danish joke

Ruotsalainen oli Suomessa eräässä kapakassa ja vakioasiakas ehdotti hänelle: -
Saat tonnin, jos saan iskeä kymmenen kaljapulloa päähäsi. Ruotsalainen mietti hieman ja lopulta suostui, osittain muun asiakaskunnan vaatimuksesta. Suomalainen iski ensimmäisen pullon ruotsalaisen päähän, sitten toisen ja niin edelleen, mutta lopetti iskettyään yhdeksän pulloa.
- No, milloinkas sinä isket sen viimeisen pullon? kysyi ruotsalainen.
- En minä mikään hölmö ole, suomalainen vastasi, silloinhan joutuisin antamaan sinulle sen tonnin.

 

Makes you laugh doesn't it!

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

The beeb leads another article with the EU pov. But read further down to get the lowdown from David Davis' incisive overview:

 

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41140564

 

Same story from Sky News:

 

http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-talks-david-davis-accuses-eu-of-playing-time-against-money-11018702

[Khun Han]

Another EU dreamer:

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/pay-until-2023-german-eu-200000102.html

[canopus1969]

11 hours ago, elliss said:

     Would that  include foreigners/aliens residing  in Thailand ?.  OMG .

Suggest you read the title  - nothing to do with Thailand 

 

Britain cannot be blackmailed by EU over exit bill: minister

[stag4]

9 hours ago, chang50 said:

Like the 1975 decision was respected?And why can't my personal interests coincide with the country's?Sounds like you're the one peddling BS.

I voted against continuing membership of the then common market but respected the result that remain had won.

I don't recall the losing side trying to undermine and overturn the result at every opportunity.

The public voted at that time to be part of a trading block and not a political union obsessed with Federalisation, Foreign policy and having its own army! Hence the call for a referendum to leave the European Union.

Once again this issue is much bigger than the temporary effect on your pension.

[pitrevie]

16 minutes ago, stag4 said:

I voted against continuing membership of the then common market but respected the result that remain had won.

I don't recall the losing side trying to undermine and overturn the result at every opportunity.

The public voted at that time to be part of a trading block and not a political union obsessed with Federalisation, Foreign policy and having its own army! Hence the call for a referendum to leave the European Union.

Once again this issue is much bigger than the temporary effect on your pension.

As Bill Cash a leading Brexiter acknowledged in the HoC had the result gone the other way he would have continued his campaign to get the UK out of the EU.

As Farage remarked before the Brexit vote, if the result was a narrow one in favour of remaining then he would continue with his campaign to get the UK out of the EU.

As David Davis remarked before the referendum vote, if a Nation cannot change its mind then it is not a democracy.

As for trying to undermine and overturn the result where have you been these past 40 years? Every Tory government has had its hard core of MPs determined to reverse the result.

[chang50]

4 hours ago, pitrevie said:

As Bill Cash a leading Brexiter acknowledged in the HoC had the result gone the other way he would have continued his campaign to get the UK out of the EU.

As Farage remarked before the Brexit vote, if the result was a narrow one in favour of remaining then he would continue with his campaign to get the UK out of the EU.

As David Davis remarked before the referendum vote, if a Nation cannot change its mind then it is not a democracy.

As for trying to undermine and overturn the result where have you been these past 40 years? Every Tory government has had its hard core of MPs determined to reverse the result.

Ain't that the truth.All we are hearing from the Brexiteers here is historical revisionism that would not have been out of place in the Soviet Union from mischaracterizing the 1975 referendum to the blatant lie that the result was accepted.Smh.

[Grouse]

10 hours ago, aright said:

I know a great Danish joke

Ruotsalainen oli Suomessa eräässä kapakassa ja vakioasiakas ehdotti hänelle: -
Saat tonnin, jos saan iskeä kymmenen kaljapulloa päähäsi. Ruotsalainen mietti hieman ja lopulta suostui, osittain muun asiakaskunnan vaatimuksesta. Suomalainen iski ensimmäisen pullon ruotsalaisen päähän, sitten toisen ja niin edelleen, mutta lopetti iskettyään yhdeksän pulloa.
- No, milloinkas sinä isket sen viimeisen pullon? kysyi ruotsalainen.
- En minä mikään hölmö ole, suomalainen vastasi, silloinhan joutuisin antamaan sinulle sen tonnin.

 

Makes you laugh doesn't it!

Finnish; finish!

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, chang50 said:

Ain't that the truth.All we are hearing from the Brexiteers here is historical revisionism that would not have been out of place in the Soviet Union from mischaracterizing the 1975 referendum to the blatant lie that the result was accepted.Smh.

 

You remainers are just hilarious. A few Tory MPs and a few political outsiders is equivalent to the onslaught seen from Project Fear's agents?

 

And the claim that a vote to confirm membership of a trading group was ridden roughshod by a later vote which acknowledged the loss of sovereignty that was kept secret in the first vote? Political revisionism indeed.

[Laughing Gravy]

On ‎02‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 6:34 PM, dick dasterdly said:

Better still if the EU would address some of the issues that resulted in the brexit vote - especially as it's not only the UK electorate that are unhappy.

So very true. It didn't and won't. It is and always was about the federalization of Europe and we have chosen not to be apart of that.

 

If the EU is such a wonderful organization bringing nations together for the better, why don't they allow all EU countries a referendum. I know it would never happen, as most countries would be giving two fingers to its dictatorship, as Barnier and others in the EU want to punish the UK for saying goodbye.

[Grouse]

27 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

So very true. It didn't and won't. It is and always was about the federalization of Europe and we have chosen not to be apart of that.

 

If the EU is such a wonderful organization bringing nations together for the better, why don't they allow all EU countries a referendum. I know it would never happen, as most countries would be giving two fingers to its dictatorship, as Barnier and others in the EU want to punish the UK for saying goodbye.

Au contraire, we have indeed voted to be apart (sic) from that.

 

I feel that a majority of Europeans are still suffering trauma from WW2 (and Spanish civil war). It is clear from my personal experiences that a majority favour the benefits of an imperfect EU over the horrors of nationalism.

Incidently, people I talk to in the bars and cafes feel sorry for us British. There is no anger, just sadness and bewilderment at our silliness!

 

You think the EU is a dictatorship? Ask the people of Barcelona about Franco or the people of Lyon about Klaus Barbie

Edited September 4, 2017 by Grouse

[aright]

47 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Au contraire, we have indeed voted to be apart (sic) from that.

 

I feel that a majority of Europeans are still suffering trauma from WW2 (and Spanish civil war).

Complete tripe

 

48 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 It is clear from my personal experiences that a majority favour the benefits of an imperfect EU over the horrors of nationalism.

 

Are you having a tin bath? 64% of Dutch voters rejected a Ukraine/EU deal on closer political ties. This was regarded as a rebuke to the Dutch Government and the European Union. The referendum was not binding however and the Treaty went through. Ignoring the will of the people in the UK and the EU is obviously something many people find palatable if the democratic result doesn't accord with there own. On the doorstep Dutch voters said they opposed the Treaty and European policy making from the migrant crisis to their economic outlooks. You are an intelligent man I am sure you know the answer to the question "Why aren't there more referendums in the EU" 

 

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

Incidently, people I talk to in the bars and cafes feel sorry for us British. There is no anger, just sadness and bewilderment at our silliness!

In April/May of this year I spent a month driving from the  East Riding to the South of France. I stopped  at many bars

hotels on the way. I had rented an apartment in Marseille and arrived there I think it was the first week in May on election day. The lady(mid 30's) who had rented me the flat was at the property to hand over the keys, along with five of her childhood friends. After the transfer of keys they were driving to Lyon where they were registered to vote. They offered me coffee and in the 45mins they spent with me it was obvious they were going to vote for Macron not because they liked his policies but to keep Marine Le Pen out. The sage in the group said he thought Macron would win this election but he felt if Macron fails us, Marine will win the next one as will Geert Wilders in Netherlands. How is Macrons approval rating by the way.

As far as sadness, bewilderment and silliness are concerned  I would comment "Sometimes misery loves company"

 

As for Franco and Klaus Barbie I couldn't possibly comment. I don't talk to people that old and as for dictatorships they can sometimes exist in a very quiet way. I'm off for a swim

[pitrevie]

I think this sums up the British position fairly well.

 

 

[chang50]

10 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

I think this sums up the British position fairly well.

 

 

Hilarious..would laugh louder if it wasn't desperately sad as well.

[aright]

Greenland joined the EU in 1973 and voted to leave in 1982. It took them 3 years before they finally got out and they only have one industry.....fishing......We have many so don't hold your breath!

[Grouse]

52 minutes ago, aright said:

Complete tripe

 

 

Are you having a tin bath? 64% of Dutch voters rejected a Ukraine/EU deal on closer political ties. This was regarded as a rebuke to the Dutch Government and the European Union. The referendum was not binding however and the Treaty went through. Ignoring the will of the people in the UK and the EU is obviously something many people find palatable if the democratic result doesn't accord with there own. On the doorstep Dutch voters said they opposed the Treaty and European policy making from the migrant crisis to their economic outlooks. You are an intelligent man I am sure you know the answer to the question "Why aren't there more referendums in the EU" 

 

In April/May of this year I spent a month driving from the  East Riding to the South of France. I stopped  at many bars

hotels on the way. I had rented an apartment in Marseille and arrived there I think it was the first week in May on election day. The lady(mid 30's) who had rented me the flat was at the property to hand over the keys, along with five of her childhood friends. After the transfer of keys they were driving to Lyon where they were registered to vote. They offered me coffee and in the 45mins they spent with me it was obvious they were going to vote for Macron not because they liked his policies but to keep Marine Le Pen out. The sage in the group said he thought Macron would win this election but he felt if Macron fails us, Marine will win the next one as will Geert Wilders in Netherlands. How is Macrons approval rating by the way.

As far as sadness, bewilderment and silliness are concerned  I would comment "Sometimes misery loves company"

 

As for Franco and Klaus Barbie I couldn't possibly comment. I don't talk to people that old and as for dictatorships they can sometimes exist in a very quiet way. I'm off for a swim

I agree to the Ukraine being a. Buffer zone between the EU and Russia

 

I don't think one needs to have experienced the conflicts of the 20th century to understand the trauma still suffered and/or remembered on the continent. Worth reading some more modern history.

[aright]

Yes the trauma inflicted on people by the likes of Franco, Klaus Barbie, Pol Pot et al. can cause psychological, social, sexual and physical problems for the people who were the victims of the atrocities but I don't think it has a traumatic effect on later generations. I feel sad and uncomfortable when I read about people being killed on a bridge in London or an arena in Manchester or a beheading by ISIL  but it doesn't give me trauma. Modern day Europeans I know don't suffer from trauma. By the way all history is modern history.    

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, aright said:

Yes the trauma inflicted on people by the likes of Franco, Klaus Barbie, Pol Pot et al. can cause psychological, social, sexual and physical problems for the people who were the victims of the atrocities but I don't think it has a traumatic effect on later generations. I feel sad and uncomfortable when I read about people being killed on a bridge in London or an arena in Manchester or a beheading by ISIL  but it doesn't give me trauma. Modern day Europeans I know don't suffer from trauma. By the way all history is modern history.    

Sorry for my lack of precision. I should have referred to contemporary history and the late modern period

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_history

 

We do not wish to re-invent the wheel and we should learn from our mistakes; to coin two cliches.

( French girls have a cute accent but there is no acute accent on this iPhone!)

 

This thread concerns EU countries so let's concentrate on that.

 

My point is that British late modern history is all Spitfires, Dunkirk, Dambusters, Bletchley and ultimate victory.

 

Other EU countries have much darker histories of real dictatorships, unbridled nationalisms, holocausts, defeat and shame.

 

A major reason why the EU will hold together much more strongly than most Brits can understand is that they value the absence of serious European wars for over 70 years. If you don't understand that fact you will never understand the psyche of EU countries (and Russia for that matter)

 

The Russians suffered about 100 times UK fatalities in WW2. Knowing that fact alone suggests that leaving Ukraine as a buffer across the North European plain would demonstrate wisdom.

 

I don't mean to be pompous but try reading AJP Taylor, Alan Furst and Paul Preston. You will enjoy them ?

Edited September 4, 2017 by Grouse

[Thongkorn]

59 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry for my lack of precision. I should have referred to contemporary history and the late modern period

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_history

 

We do not wish to re-invent the wheel and we should learn from our mistakes; to coin two cliches.

( French girls have a cute accent but there is no acute accent on this iPhone!)

 

This thread concerns EU countries so let's concentrate on that.

 

My point is that British late modern history is all Spitfires, Dunkirk, Dambusters, Bletchley and ultimate victory.

 

Other EU countries have much darker histories of real dictatorships, unbridled nationalisms, holocausts, defeat and shame.

 

A major reason why the EU will hold together much more strongly than most Brits can understand is that they value the absence of serious European wars for over 70 years. If you don't understand that fact you will never understand the psyche of EU countries (and Russia for that matter)

 

The Russians suffered about 100 times UK fatalities in WW2. Knowing that fact alone suggests that leaving Ukraine as a buffer across the North European plain would demonstrate wisdom.

 

I don't mean to be pompous but try reading AJP Taylor, Alan Furst and Paul Preston. You will enjoy them ?

 Yes  exactly Britain Supported and paid for NATO , since 1947 thats what kept the peace, Britain fought for Democracy, the thing the EU is bent on destroying, the EU is a dictatorship , Something Britons will never stand for,  19 unelected men that cannot be removed or reprimanded, they go in a room in secret, lock the doors , then make decisions for 500 million people, you think thats ok .

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, Thongkorn said:

 Yes  exactly Britain Supported and paid for NATO , since 1947 thats what kept the peace, Britain fought for Democracy, the thing the EU is bent on destroying, the EU is a dictatorship , Something Britons will never stand for,  19 unelected men that cannot be removed or reprimanded, they go in a room in secret, lock the doors , then make decisions for 500 million people, you think thats ok .

I rather think that you should take my advice and read a little more before you make a fool of yourself ?

[Thakkar]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

7 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

 Yes  exactly Britain Supported and paid for NATO , since 1947 thats what kept the peace, Britain fought for Democracy, the thing the EU is bent on destroying, the EU is a dictatorship , Something Britons will never stand for,  19 unelected men that cannot be removed or reprimanded, they go in a room in secret, lock the doors , then make decisions for 500 million people, you think thats ok .

I rather think that you should take my advice and read a little more before you make a fool of yourself ?

 

Too late!

[Laughing Gravy]

20 hours ago, Grouse said:

You think the EU is a dictatorship?

I know its a dictatorship and most sensible people either side of the Brexit people would agree. Whilst the eastern block who have joined the EU and maybe even Spain have memories of communism/dictatorship, so the EU must seem different to them. the EU does the dictating in a less invasive way and from behind. Still some very similar outcomes.

 

Either way the EU is about federalization and it is determined to ensure everyone has the same currency, laws and generally eroding any national cultures and identity, on the way. The sad thing is that Spain and its economy is knackered and they won't have a culture left before they know it. Same with the Italians, French and Greeks. I am happy that the British people had the foresight to see this. When it all goes t**s up you will see many people wishing they had stood up and been counted earlier.

[Thakkar]

31 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

the EU does the dictating in a less invasive way and from behind. Still some very similar outcomes.

I can't help thinking you might be confusing "dictatorship" with "doggy style" 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

58 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

I can't help thinking you might be confusing "dictatorship" with "doggy style" 

 

I can see your pun which was funny. but I know exactly what I mean. Maybe behind the scenes or in the 'back door' might have been better. But I had a chuckle thanks.

[Thakkar]

31 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I can see your pun which was funny. but I know exactly what I mean. Maybe behind the scenes or in the 'back door' might have been better. But I had a chuckle thanks.

Perhaps a Freudian slip? Perhaps a glimpse into what you are thinking about when imagining the dynamic between Britain and the EU?

 

In business, there is an awful term: "frenemies" which describes  a business relationship that is sometimes cooperative and sometimes competitive. When it comes to relationships between countries, or between a country and a bloc of countries, this is invariably the dynamic. All this fighting talk in the press is often for public consumption because officials—rightly or wrongly—think the public too feeble for anything other than simple "us vs them" narratives.

 

Trade negotiates are though and heated, often more so than arms negotiations, if only because a huge number of local business and consumer interests need to be balanced and accounted for. But along with the tough talk, there is a lot of horse trading because, for the most part, all sides want a deal. The negotiators then have to go home and sell the deal to their constituents.

 

If we, the constituents, want our politicians to be straight with us and tone down the theatrics and just get on with their jobs, then we have to stop thinking of international relations as zero sum games, stop bickering amongst ourselves as to who is screwing whom and how (doggy style?).

 

Brexit was a mistake, but it's done and there's no going back.

 

Britain and EU are neighbors, major trading partners and defense allies. This dynamic should be front and center as they trash out the nitty gritties of the future.

 

Brexiters have gotten what they wanted. They should stop trying to export the idea in the hope of a EU breakup as a way to justify their brexit position. As for Remainers, well, I don't know. Maybe we should lie back and think of England? I am too depressed to be optimistic.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I know its a dictatorship and most sensible people either side of the Brexit people would agree. Whilst the eastern block who have joined the EU and maybe even Spain have memories of communism/dictatorship, so the EU must seem different to them. the EU does the dictating in a less invasive way and from behind. Still some very similar outcomes.

 

Either way the EU is about federalization and it is determined to ensure everyone has the same currency, laws and generally eroding any national cultures and identity, on the way. The sad thing is that Spain and its economy is knackered and they won't have a culture left before they know it. Same with the Italians, French and Greeks. I am happy that the British people had the foresight to see this. When it all goes t**s up you will see many people wishing they had stood up and been counted earlier.

Most sensible people would agree that whereas the EU is far from ideal, it does provide far better societies than those under Hitler, Franco or Mussolini!

 

Most countries have their wealthier and poorer areas. Catalonia seems to be doing fine as is Northern Italy, Southern Germany and SE England 

 

In all the places Ive been to recently, people seems to be reasonably happy and healthy. What more can one ask in this world?

 

Finally, if the UK wants to leave then leave. Right now.

 

Why run down our European friends? Leave them alone, they're fine. 

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Thakkar said:

Perhaps a Freudian slip? Perhaps a glimpse into what you are thinking about when imagining the dynamic between Britain and the EU?

 

In business, there is an awful term: "frenemies" which describes  a business relationship that is sometimes cooperative and sometimes competitive. When it comes to relationships between countries, or between a country and a bloc of countries, this is invariably the dynamic. All this fighting talk in the press is often for public consumption because officials—rightly or wrongly—think the public too feeble for anything other than simple "us vs them" narratives.

 

Trade negotiates are though and heated, often more so than arms negotiations, if only because a huge number of local business and consumer interests need to be balanced and accounted for. But along with the tough talk, there is a lot of horse trading because, for the most part, all sides want a deal. The negotiators then have to go home and sell the deal to their constituents.

 

If we, the constituents, want our politicians to be straight with us and tone down the theatrics and just get on with their jobs, then we have to stop thinking of international relations as zero sum games, stop bickering amongst ourselves as to who is screwing whom and how (doggy style?).

 

Brexit was a mistake, but it's done and there's no going back.

 

Britain and EU are neighbors, major trading partners and defense allies. This dynamic should be front and center as they trash out the nitty gritties of the future.

 

Brexiters have gotten what they wanted. They should stop trying to export the idea in the hope of a EU breakup as a way to justify their brexit position. As for Remainers, well, I don't know. Maybe we should lie back and think of England? I am too depressed to be optimistic.

 

Brexit is only a mistakr if you take the extremely negative view (as most remainers do) that the UK is a 'has been' which needs to hang onto Germany's coat tails in order to move forward.

[Thakkar]

25 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Brexit is only a mistakr if you take the extremely negative view (as most remainers do) that the UK is a 'has been' which needs to hang onto Germany's coat tails in order to move forward.

See, this is the kind of addleness politicians feel they have to play to. Or, for those so inclined, exploit.

[Khun Han]

14 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

See, this is the kind of addleness politicians feel they have to play to. Or, for those so inclined, exploit.

 

Nothing addled about stating the bleedin' obvious, as espoused regularly by remainers on this forum.

[Thakkar]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Nothing addled about stating the bleedin' obvious, as espoused regularly by remainers on this forum.

I haven't followed many brexit threads, but on this thread, I don't recall anyone saying or implying Britain will become "a has been that needs to hang on to Germany's coat tails"

 

Perhaps you could point them out. Using emotional terms (because of the European history of 'war(s) to end all war(s)') like 'German coat tails' is already a way to shut out rational debate and completely unhelpful.

 

Brexit is a momentous and never before attempted event and, as such, carries many uncertainties. Uncertainties are anathema to financial and other businesses. Pointing out the inevitable potential detriments of multi year uncertainties is not the same as crying doom and gloom, although granted, it may look that way.

 

Britain is home to the world's second largest financial market. A lot of FDI into Britain was predicated on Britain's membership in the EU. Millions of personal decisions on where to work, study and retire, raise a family were predicated on Britain's continued membership in the EU. A lot of things are going to be up-ended nobody knows yet to what extent, if at all, or completely. Such multi year uncertainties aren't good for economies or personal lives.

 

The benefits of brexit are equally as yet uncertain and again make business and personal decisions harder. Pretending otherwise is classic head in the sand behavior.

 

It is right to be worried and concerned and even critical, because, for the next few years at least, many individuals, families and businesses on both sides of The Channel have to live with these uncertainties and put many decisions on hold until there is some clarity.

 

Shouting xenophobic slogans may placate some inner beast in some people, but it isn't helpful on the whole. In an inter dependent world, in or out of any bloc, no country is totally "sovereign." Many of the big issues are global in nature. We share the same, ever-shrinking planet and have no choice but to accommodate or synchronize to each other's rules and regulations. One way or another, homogeneity in regulations (such as, for example, no lead in gasoline or children's toys) is inevitable.

 

Denying our interdependence is foolish. Acknowledging our interdependence means letting go of our xenophobia and toning down our unhelpful nationalism.