To What Degree Is Thailand Xenophobic?

[cm-happy]

I expect the poll to start with 0 % meaning not xenophobic then 10% to 100% in 10% increments.

Please vote your opinion not just on gov't policy but everyday interactions in both the gov't and private sectors.

Mods if I'm successful posting this poll, my first time messing with polls,please close the other one i started about xenophobia in TH.

Edited December 25, 2007 by camerata
Poll fixed.

[PeaceBlondie]

It appears to work fine. I'll close the other thread and direct people here, unless another moderator beats me to it.

[camerata]

Let's not forget that xenophobic means "an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners." With that definition I'd say there is no real fear of foreigners in Thailand and no hatred influencing government policy. As for hatred among individuals, this seems to be mainly confined to those who come into regular contact with the worst kind of foreigners, i.e. sex workers, pimps, and some others in the service industry.

[A_Traveller]

{From other thread}

How about, "Thailand and most of its people have historically been isolated from events, and therefore sometimes tend to exhibit behavior similar to xenophobia."

Nice try but the old phrase walks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc. springs to mind. An example today, was an overheard conversation, {in Thai} where someone was discussing a TV programme about Amsterdam, and commented how clean it was, leading on to how dirty Bangkok was and how the main culprits were from Laos, to self evident agreement from the other chattering Thais there.

Regards

[camerata]

how the main culprits were from Laos, to self evident agreement from the other chattering Thais there.

That's racial stereotyping rather than xenophobia, IMO. Racial stereotyping is very common on ThaiVisa too.

[Naam]

An example today, was an overheard conversation, {in Thai} where someone was discussing a TV programme about Amsterdam, and commented how clean it was, leading on to how dirty Bangkok was and how the main culprits were from Laos, to self evident agreement from the other chattering Thais there.

that's a factual statement based on personal views and has nothing to do with xenophobia.

[pointofview]

Let's not forget that xenophobic means "an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners." With that definition I'd say there is no real fear of foreigners in Thailand and no hatred influencing government policy. As for hatred among individuals, this seems to be mainly confined to those who come into regular contact with the worst kind of foreigners, i.e. sex workers, pimps, and some others in the service industry.

I think you may just find that most of the sex workers, pimps and service workers are actually thai - not foreigners.

Are thailands property/land ownership laws not 1 million percent xenophobic!!

Edited December 25, 2007 by pointofview

[Jingthing]

I think the poll is asking for a boiled down synthesis of the xenophobia here. In my view, Thailand isn't the most xenophobic place, it isn't the least, it is more like above average in that wonderful trait.

[JetsetBkk]

Let's not forget that xenophobic means "an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners." With that definition I'd say there is no real fear of foreigners in Thailand and no hatred influencing government policy. As for hatred among individuals, this seems to be mainly confined to those who come into regular contact with the worst kind of foreigners, i.e. sex workers, pimps, and some others in the service industry.

I think you may just find that most of the sex workers, pimps and service workers are actually thai - not foreigners.

Are thailands property/land ownership laws not 1 million percent xenophobic!!

Try reading what camerata wrote again - you missed what he said by a mile.

[camerata]

Are thailands property/land ownership laws not 1 million percent xenophobic!!

Not in my opinion. I have the right to own a condo (which I didn't when I first arrived here) and that's all I want. It seems reasonable to me that the government of a relatively poor country wouldn't want rich countries buying up all its land. This couldn't really happen in a wealthy developed country. Sure the Arabs bought a bit of London and the Japanese got a bit of the US and Australia's Gold Coast but it was never going to amount to much overall. But here it really could happen. In fact in the 50s there was concern that Chinese and Vietnamese male immigrants moving into NE Thailand - where inheritance of land was mostly matrilineal - and marrying Thais were getting control of Thai land and could become a communist "5th column" in the kingdom. AFAIK this was the origin of Thailand's strict land laws. Fear of foreigners, yes, "unreasonable fear," no.

As recently as the mid-1990s I recall Taiwanese companies were engaged in massive land speculation in Thailand. If I were running Thailand I'm sure I'd want it to be Thais who profit from speculating on Thai land, not foreigners.

[nidge]

I voted 0% because until i found ThaiVisa i never heard the word Xenophobic and Thai in the same sentence. I can only go on personal experience and where i live the main 2 differences between me and a Thai are maybe i pay a little bit more than a Thai for something and people are more tolerant of my cultural screw ups than they would be of a local. I own a house, land and a car. It's in my wife's name not mine but i couldn't care less. I am living in the present and i am very happy. I don't need more than that.

It would be interesting to see the geographical spread of voters in this poll. I am sure there will be a trend.

Edited December 25, 2007 by nidge

[pointofview]

Are thailands property/land ownership laws not 1 million percent xenophobic!!

Not in my opinion. I have the right to own a condo (which I didn't when I first arrived here) and that's all I want. It seems reasonable to me that the government of a relatively poor country wouldn't want rich countries buying up all its land. This couldn't really happen in a wealthy developed country. Sure the Arabs bought a bit of London and the Japanese got a bit of the US and Australia's Gold Coast but it was never going to amount to much overall. But here it really could happen. In fact in the 50s there was concern that Chinese and Vietnamese male immigrants moving into NE Thailand - where inheritance of land was mostly matrilineal - and marrying Thais were getting control of Thai land and could become a communist "5th column" in the kingdom. AFAIK this was the origin of Thailand's strict land laws. Fear of foreigners, yes, "unreasonable fear," no.

As recently as the mid-1990s I recall Taiwanese companies were engaged in massive land speculation in Thailand. If I were running Thailand I'm sure I'd want it to be Thais who profit from speculating on Thai land, not foreigners.

Complete rubbish I - being married to a thai and being responsible for the welfare and living of my wife and kids (and education) in thailand - have no right to own my own house - unless through a company formation which is illegal or at best dubious. I need to show the income of an army general to even obtain my marrage visa. If not then i am out on my ear whilst my wife and kids remain (against genevia convention rules). Thailand has little to fear from the small investor or the small guy taking care of his family - they should fear the multi nationals who are changing the face of thailand. Your view is nationalist and dangerous and most of all ignorant!

Edited December 25, 2007 by pointofview

[Heng]

"Xenophobic" on most expat webforums seems to = "I have sour grapes about not being able to live in Thailand (either at all or the way I want to live), so I'm going to stick with name calling."

Thailand is about as xenophobic towards foreigners as Americans are towards Native Americans or Aussies are towards aboriginees. They are groups that often get the sh*t end of the stick, not because of malice or fear, but because that's what happens when broadsweeping laws and ways of life are more prevalent/dominant over years and years and generations.... a lot of folks get swept aside. There is not hate or fear of the dust that is swept aside.

Edited December 25, 2007 by Heng

[nidge]

"Xenophobic" on most expat webforums seems to = "I have sour grapes about not being able to live in Thailand (either at all or the way I want to live), so I'm going to stick with name calling."

i agree

[pointofview]

"Xenophobic" on most expat webforums seems to = "I have sour grapes about not being able to live in Thailand (either at all or the way I want to live), so I'm going to stick with name calling."

There are hordes of xenophocis in the UK - even complete racists - but that doesnt detract from the question in hand.

When things seem unfair it is right and proper to speak up - it is not name calling. Seems to me that many defenders on this forum think because their personal situation is ok then <deleted> everone else. They are the worst kind of pond life!

[zorro1]

I voted 0% because until i found ThaiVisa i never heard the word Xenophobic and Thai in the same sentence. I can only go on personal experience and where i live the main 2 differences between me and a Thai are maybe i pay a little bit more than a Thai for something and people are more tolerant of my cultural screw ups than they would be of a local. I own a house, land and a car. It's in my wife's name not mine but i couldn't care less. I am living in the present and i am very happy. I don't need more than that.

dam_n you beat me to it

Edited December 25, 2007 by zorro1

[ignoramus]

Just for fun: My 1964 Oxford Concise Dictionary defines xenophobia as a 'morbid dislike of foreigners'.

The Macquarie (1982): 'fear or hatred of foreigners'. Meanings 'evolve' it seems. Modern times.

The Websters (1913): The word doesn't appear, even in the Department of New Words! Modern phenomonen it seems (after all, who was travelling, and meeting 'foreigners', in 1913)?

Camerata states that there exists a hatred for foreign sex workers, inter alia. This is fascinating. Used persons are hated? Interesting. If true, it's hypocritical to a quite remarkable degree, and more than a little unkind. I understood that 'sex-work' was an almost-honoured tradition in the LOS, and that there was less than little hypocrisy about it. Perhaps I was sadly misinformed.

Not for fun:

To my extreme chagrin (and shame), back in the early '90's I was 'introduced' by an 'obliging' taxi-driver to an obviously under-duress, and probably kidnapped, foreign worker, a young girl of about 16, from Burma I imagine. My decampment was post haste. You dig?

I can only imagine that she would have been seen as a prize by the local and/or foreign creeps, and being obviously a hostage, hardly an object of hate....morbid indeed, if true.

I never met, nor saw, a foreign pimp.

I am so in need of education. Then again, perhaps I'll pass.

[Heng]

"Xenophobic" on most expat webforums seems to = "I have sour grapes about not being able to live in Thailand (either at all or the way I want to live), so I'm going to stick with name calling."

There are hordes of xenophocis in the UK - even complete racists - but that doesnt detract from the question in hand.

When things seem unfair it is right and proper to speak up - it is not name calling. Seems to me that many defenders on this forum think because their personal situation is ok then <deleted> everone else. They are the worst kind of pond life!

Nothing wrong with speaking up, but in this particular case a lot of folks are using a term that doesn't apply to the situation at hand, probably an attempt to make themselves feel better. "They won't let me in, so they must fear/hate me." The reality is 'that they might not be letting you in, but they are likely not even thinking about you.'

A dislike, or preference to avoid or exclude, both often practiced here and in many places in the world is not xenophobia either, but often incorrectly labeled as such.

Edited December 25, 2007 by Heng

[eljeque]

One of the better yet lesser known books in Thailand is

National Identity and Its Defenders

It would provide valuable information to anyone interested in this topic

[pointofview]

"Xenophobic" on most expat webforums seems to = "I have sour grapes about not being able to live in Thailand (either at all or the way I want to live), so I'm going to stick with name calling."

There are hordes of xenophocis in the UK - even complete racists - but that doesnt detract from the question in hand.

When things seem unfair it is right and proper to speak up - it is not name calling. Seems to me that many defenders on this forum think because their personal situation is ok then <deleted> everone else. They are the worst kind of pond life!

Nothing wrong with speaking up, but in this particular case a lot of folks are using a term that doesn't apply to the situation at hand, probably an attempt to make themselves feel better. "They won't let me in, so they must fear/hate me." The reality is 'that they might not be letting you in, but they are likely not even thinking about you.'

A dislike, or preference to avoid or exclude, both often practiced here and in many places in the world is not xenophobia either, but often incorrectly labeled as such.

I agree to the point that hate is too strong a term - but fear certainly plays a major role

[A_Traveller]

Xenophobia, whilst it can be defined as a morbid dread, say as in the fear of spiders {arachnophobia }, was defined as a term less than a 100 years ago. However, in most cases today it is used to highlight a dislike or a propensity to be dismissive of others, {zeno: from the Greek meaning foreigner or stranger}, simply because they are, by manner, and or appearance different. That usage is recognised by dictionaries today.

In Thailand since this is where we are discussing, one can see this trait down to a regional level. How many here, who have discussions in the vernacular, find references to specific areas as being predominately criminal, for example? Culturally, this concern about 'those who are different' has been part of life here for generations, with part of this only beginning to break down as the populous moves increasingly into an urban environment, thereby being exposed to the reality that people are people, irrespective of their antecedents.

But policy makers still play to this concern, often using a nationalist card. Surly no one can honestly say they do not see that here, {FBA anyone?}, refugee actions, or lack of them. Though they've changed the Royal Anthem imagery recently in some of the Cinemas, the underlying message {they may be different but they are Thai} was very clear.

Do I believe I should be somehow magically exempt for the rules of the country by being a foreign guest here, no, though I would hope for fair and honourable treatment, just the same. Compared to other locales I've lived in, Thailand may not be the worst, but it does have a strong anti-foreigner/stranger component, both culturally and structurally.

To say otherwise by endeavouring to stratify elements seems to me to be unproductive.

Regards

Edited December 25, 2007 by A_Traveller

[endure]

Camerata states that there exists a hatred for foreign sex workers, inter alia. This is fascinating. Used persons are hated? Interesting. If true, it's hypocritical to a quite remarkable degree, and more than a little unkind. I understood that 'sex-work' was an almost-honoured tradition in the LOS, and that there was less than little hypocrisy about it. Perhaps I was sadly misinformed.

I think you'll find that Camerata was saying that that there is a hatred amongst Thai sex workers for the worst kind of foreigners.

[Heng]

I agree to the point that hate is too strong a term - but fear certainly plays a major role

It all depends on one's point of view, I suppose. I feel that it's more 'preferences' than any kind of feelings like hate, love, or fear.

[ignoramus]

Haven't had any experience of of the application immigration rules, and wouldn't be in a position to say whether or not there is any 'hatred' - policy-wise - of foreigners (though I'd doubt it exists), but a fairly extensive reading of TV seems to suggest that, at the very least, there exists an extreme and puzzling ambivalence on the part of authorities towards foreigners wishing to call the LOS home.

[pointofview]

I agree to the point that hate is too strong a term - but fear certainly plays a major role

It all depends on one's point of view, I suppose. I feel that it's more 'preferences' than any kind of feelings like hate, love, or fear.

All feelings stem from the two main emotions - love or fear (of course there are many derivatives of these emotions - but it is a metaphisical fact)

Edited December 25, 2007 by pointofview

[ignoramus]

Quite right endure. The wording following 'i.e.' was misplaced. It's 2am here. I am tired.

[ade100]

I am voting zero percent as I have just had a wonderful Christmas meal with Thai people. I cooked Mediterranean food for them and made cocktails.

I don’t find Thai people hateful I just don’t think they know that much about the world outside Thailand. My GF’s best friend (who is a university graduate) had never left the country until I invited her (and my GF) to stay in my condo in Singapore. Her mother has never once left the country. A holiday in Europe or the US is out of the question for most Thais and from what I have seen of Thai TV, it is not a melting pot of multi-cultural celebration.

They are good people but have not been exposed that much to other cultures. I hope that as Thailand becomes more multicultural, their tolerance and interest in other cultures continues.

[Jingthing]

I think people who vote 0 percent don't really understand the meaning of the word.

A certain amount of xenophobia is part of the human condition, in everyone's genes. So you are saying Thais aren't human when you absurdly claim there is no xenophobia here.

As silly as the Iranian buffoon who says there are no homosexuals in Iran.

Some people are so black and white, it amazes me.

Edited December 25, 2007 by Jingthing

[abdulrahman]

Not in my opinion. I have the right to own a condo (which I didn't when I first arrived here) and that's all I want. It seems reasonable to me that the government of a relatively poor country wouldn't want rich countries buying up all its land. This couldn't really happen in a wealthy developed country. Sure the Arabs bought a bit of London and the Japanese got a bit of the US and Australia's Gold Coast but it was never going to amount to much overall. But here it really could happen. In fact in the 50s there was concern that Chinese and Vietnamese male immigrants moving into NE Thailand - where inheritance of land was mostly matrilineal - and marrying Thais were getting control of Thai land and could become a communist "5th column" in the kingdom. AFAIK this was the origin of Thailand's strict land laws. Fear of foreigners, yes, "unreasonable fear," no.

The new converts are always more extremist as the old faithfuls.

[ade100]

I think people who vote 0 percent don't really understand the meaning of the word.

Meanings of words are always debatable and without reducing this discussion to one of semantics, I am going with the definition that implies fear and hatred of the other (I believe the origins are from a Greek a word that literally means “fear of the market place”). Some folk may have encountered this fear and loathing but as I have not, I am sticking with my zero percent vote at the risk of appearing obtuse or uneducated.