Numbered Days For The Grandfather Rule?

[Maestro]

...if I had been able to show a Baht 1.200.000 balance in my bank account then I wiuldn't have even needed the embassy letter.

If you are over 50 years old the Immigration officer probably meant 800k, ie extension for retirement.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

...found at ... http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1304034

Thank you, Razor, for digging that up. If one could give out brownie points on ThaiVisa I would give you a handful. (Oh, I see one can, in your profile. Just did.)

Sunny Valentine then seems to be click2delete. Anyway, let me try to analyse this, but not without adding the disclaimer, for the benefit of Sunny Valentine, that I am not a professor of English language.

I understand Sunny Valentine’s earlier post in this topic to mean that Sunbelt allegedly told him something to the following effect (regarding the so-called “marriage” extension):

-- last extension before 1 OCT 2006: based on 400k in the bank

-- extension this year: based on income

-- extension during any year in the future: possible to get again based on 400k

Sunbelt’s post you have found, and which I take to be the one that Sunny Valentine refers to, I understand to mean the following:

-- last extension before 1 OCT 2006: based on 400k in the bank

-- extension this year: based on 400k

-- extension next year and in subsequent years: possible to get based on 400k

All reports I have seen so far from members who asked an Immigration official for clarification on this point have been that when a “grandfathered” married man changes his basis for extension to income then he cannot later revert to extension based on 400k in the bank. The latest such report was here. Whether this is indeed the official interpretation of the Immigration Bureau and how Immigration offices will handle it when the time comes, ie after 1 OCT 2007, only time will tell, I guess.

--

Maestro

[jellykookabanj]

...if I had been able to show a Baht 1.200.000 balance in my bank account then I wiuldn't have even needed the embassy letter.

If you are over 50 years old the Immigration officer probably meant 800k, ie extension for retirement.

--

Maestro

Me too. But I was amazed at the rude and ignorant way that he stated that he would decide the level of funding required for extension/renewal. I did ask where he got the figure from but my wife assured me it would be best to stop making him angry and more prudent to leave and let it go. I was on a loser anyway as I had not prepared properly by obtaining the correct paperwork.

I try not to be rude to people here but I really had to bite my tongue after the abuse he was shouting. Obviously he felt good to show off in front of his colleagues.

But it does frustrate me that even strictly worded rules are interpreted in different ways in different areas.

[Sunny Valentine]

...found at ... http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1304034

Thank you, Razor, for digging that up. If one could give out brownie points on ThaiVisa I would give you a handful. (Oh, I see one can, in your profile. Just did.)

Sunny Valentine then seems to be click2delete. Anyway, let me try to analyse this, but not without adding the disclaimer, for the benefit of Sunny Valentine, that I am not a professor of English language.

I understand Sunny Valentine’s earlier post in this topic to mean that Sunbelt allegedly told him something to the following effect (regarding the so-called “marriage” extension):

-- last extension before 1 OCT 2006: based on 400k in the bank

-- extension this year: based on income

-- extension during any year in the future: possible to get again based on 400k

Sunbelt’s post you have found, and which I take to be the one that Sunny Valentine refers to, I understand to mean the following:

-- last extension before 1 OCT 2006: based on 400k in the bank

-- extension this year: based on 400k

-- extension next year and in subsequent years: possible to get based on 400k

All reports I have seen so far from members who asked an Immigration official for clarification on this point have been that when a “grandfathered” married man changes his basis for extension to income then he cannot later revert to extension based on 400k in the bank. The latest such report was here. Whether this is indeed the official interpretation of the Immigration Bureau and how Immigration offices will handle it when the time comes, ie after 1 OCT 2007, only time will tell, I guess.

--

Maestro

Ok, maestro, here is the link to my question about shifting from 400 k to income and back, and Sunbelts answer:

Thai Visa thread

As I assume Sunbelt knows Visa and WP regulations better than any Immigration or Labor Department Officer, I can only assume that he knows what he wrote (and I seem to remember reading a statement pointing to the same result ast least twice later on in other posts that covered this topic, but can't find them now), and the comments you referred to from Immigration Officers are wrong interpretations of the rules. Happens here all the time. No need to worry. An Immigration Officer doesn't have to know the rules. He has to make them up on the spot.

When it comes to what are the rules I stick to Sunbelt. When it comes to what happens at Immigration when I apply for a Visa, I stick to praying.

Sunny

[Tony Clifton]

I've gone from a Non-0 with year extensions to now a non-O multiple entry. I'll have to leave the country in a month, again. I still can't get the year extension even though the 400 000 has now been in the bank for 6 months. I don't work and my wife has just quit her 10 year job to work full time on our own business, so no income papers yet regarding taxes and income.

We were told quietly to use my wife's ex-employer's references even though she doesn't work there anymore but I have refused to take that alley.

We will have our company's papers, income taxes, in order for next year.

In the meantime, regarding the year extension, WE HAVE HAD IT. We have decided to stop running around according to what they ask and demand, wasting our time when something else is asked the next time or some law has apparently changed or is being misinterpreted or reinterpreted.

We'll go shopping every 3 months in Singapore and spend and visit neighbouring countries until we can come up with proof of income instead of dealing with this nonsense. Money we would be glad to spend here instead. How much money do foreigners spend outside the country because of this mess?

Edited June 24, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[ratcatcher]

How much money do foreigners spend outside the country because of this mess?

That last sentence is a question that has always intrigued me.

If Thai Immigration charged a reasonable amount of money for a visa renewal instead of making thousands of expats do border runs, they would make millions of baht a year for the Thai government . I do not have to do border runs but sympathize with those that do because of the inconvenience. I do not know what the average border run costs, but lets say 5-10,000 baht?, then if the Thais charged 2/3 of that, I'm sure most would be glad to pay.

Instead those people forced to leave the country spend thousands of baht down in Malaysia, Singapore, Cambodia and even Laos. Is there a logical answer?

Edited June 24, 2007 by Maestro
Loudly screaming font size 5, and in red, in the quoted text reset to the formatting used by the poster of that text. Quoted text reduced to what was previously highlighted in super-large size and red.

[Maestro]

..here is the link to my question about shifting from 400 k to income and back, and Sunbelts answer:

Thai Visa thread

Thank you for that link, Sunny Valentine. This puts your earlier post in perspective and brings me back to the assessment I made based on that post:

If Sunbelt said that – and I have no reason to doubt you – and knowing that Sunbelt is a stickler for facts, I am confident that he based it on information received from a senior Immigration official, probably at the Suan Phlu office in Bangkok. Frankly, I also believe that this should be the correct interpretation and for anyone directly affected by it after 1 October 2007 I sincerely hope that the immigration officer dealing with his application will also see it this way.

Sunbelt’s answer is clear and to the point. From other posts I know that they have been able to get their point across to an Immigration official on other occasions when the official misinterpreted a rule.

--

Maestro

[robint]

Can anyone sugest an authoritative source that indicates how many flangs over 50 are living here on one or other visas ie marriage /retirement?

I would exclude those on work permits, separate issues altogether

It would be useful to put some figures to all this.

anyone hazard a guess 100,000?

OK this thread my be a canard, but its just part of a long stream of uneasiness for those of us who thought we could legitimately stay here with our families and children

If it gets any worse, I for one shall have to leave and go and live in Malaysia, where you are made most welcome btw

and eventually will have to bring my children down to stay

never thought Id end up a refugee

[Cyberstar]

All reports I have seen so far from members who asked an Immigration official for clarification on this point have been that when a “grandfathered” married man changes his basis for extension to income then he cannot later revert to extension based on 400k in the bank. The latest such report was here. Whether this is indeed the official interpretation of the Immigration Bureau and how Immigration offices will handle it when the time comes, ie after 1 OCT 2007, only time will tell, I guess.

--

Maestro

Maestro - for your own, and everybody else's, sake - you got to do much better than that. That link is not to a report of actual events, but to a statement - which for all we can possibly know - could be nothing but a repeat of what some esteemed super moderator of Thai Visa's esteemed visa forum has repeatedly posted the last many months.

I remember a similar thread (about 3 months ago) where you posted the same (so far) unsupported statement. Someone (this poster, actually) asked you on what grounds you made that statement - you didn't reply more in that thread (no offense taken).

The only "grandfathering" requirement, explicitly mentioned in the (English translation) of the rules, is that you must have extended a non-imm visa (nothing about even brand, flavor nor reasons). I have followed this forum for years - and haven't seen anything nor seen anyone (included Sunbelt) ever posting anything (including you) that gave the slightest substance to the claim, that no reverse was possible.

I can't read much Thai but in my role as someone, who'd just love to be able to switch back and forth between extending my wifey-visa on grounds of 'Thai work income and/or money in the bank and/or or a combination of both' - I do have spend quite some effort on researching the subject .... So, Maestro - either provide reference to substantial source, or delete that phrase from your personal notes!

[Maestro]

All reports I have seen so far from members who asked an Immigration official for clarification on this point have been that

... That link is not to a report of actual events, but to a statement

I agree with you – but isn’t that exactly what I wrote?

With “reports” I meant posts made on this forum giving information, and I went on to say that I referred to information that members said they received from Immigration officials. I did not imply, nor mean to imply, official government reports or anything of the kind.

This is what this forum on ThaiVisa is all about: members should report/post/share their actual experiences and what they are told by officials regarding visas and extensions, for the benefit of other members.

My apologies to Cyberstar and any other reader of ThaiVisa to whom my apparently ill-advised use of the word “reports” has caused any confusion.

--

Maestro

[Cyberstar]

All reports I have seen so far from members who asked an Immigration official for clarification on this point have been that

... That link is not to a report of actual events, but to a statement

I agree with you – but isn’t that exactly what I wrote?

With “reports” I meant posts made on this forum giving information, and I went on to say that I referred to information that members said they received from Immigration officials. I did not imply, nor mean to imply, official government reports or anything of the kind.

This is what this forum on ThaiVisa is all about: members should report/post/share their actual experiences and what they are told by officials regarding visas and extensions, for the benefit of other members.

My apologies to Cyberstar and any other reader of ThaiVisa to whom my apparently ill-advised use of the word “reports” has caused any confusion.

--

Maestro

No need to apology --- however, since you still don't stand up to essentials - you're no longer on my list of guys in the know (you're the one who's confused).

[Maestro]

...stand up to essentials...

The only essentials are, as I see it:

-- Police Order 606/2549 (and I will continue linking to it)

-- Reports/posts from members about how their applications were dealt with, for what type of extension, by which Immigration office – always remembering that, as one Sunbelt lawyer told me in January of this year: “sometimes, the Immigration office implements a rule one way in the morning and a different way in the afternoon”

This is how we all shall be in the know.

--

Maestro

[Cyberstar]

I sort of gather that maestro has some sort of academic background and is sort of promoting himself as such --- however, as long as he hasn't provided a proper reference to his postulates --- put his statements at level with whatever you meet on the rest of the Internet.

... and I do know that police order down to the last sentence and I sort of believe I can repeat each and every relevant syllable in what ever sequence some might want me to repeat it in ... NEVERTHELESS --- If Maestro can't understand he got mislead some time around sep/october last year...please don't ask him to recheck.

I'll join hand with Sunny - he and I are the guys who know the real world and has some experience with the local office (and a local office is actually what we all will have to deal with) ...

Edited June 24, 2007 by Cyberstar

[dman]

I sort of gather that maestro has some sort of academic background and is sort of promoting himself as such --- however, as long as he hasn't provided a proper reference to his postulates --- put his statements at level with whatever you meet on the rest of the Internet.

... and I do know that police order down to the last sentence and I sort of believe I can repeat each and every relevant syllable in what ever sequence some might want me to repeat it in ... NEVERTHELESS --- If Maestro can't understand he got mislead some time around sep/october last year...please don't ask him to recheck.

I'll join hand with Sunny - he and I are the guys who know the real world and has some experience with the local office (and a local office is actually what we all will have to deal with) ...

How about someone like myself who had 3 years marriage extension with 400K and then switched to retirement 800K for two years. BTW. The switch was recommended by Mai Sai Immigration because they could process it same day with out sending paperwork to BKK. Can I switch back to marriage 400K next December ?

What are the rules for showing income. I am legally based in Shanghai and monthly salary is direct deposited in ICBC Bank in Shanghai. Can I just show my ICBC bankbook?

Thanks

[ray23]

Well if you read all those wonderful sections then you must have read that is up to the individual officers descretion, Hence different rules different offices with change in the wind all the time.

I can tell you one thing if you go to Nong Khia you better have yout T's crosses and I's dotted.

No less then two people and at times three have went through my paperwork the last few years.

This is the only aspect about Thailand I don't like. There is no true retirement visas, what we have is annual extension, that can be denied after investing huge sums of money in the country over the years.

When you go for that annual letter from the bank they want to give you a letter saying what your balance is. Immigration in Nong Khia wants every deposit for the year recorded. They have asked for that letter showing monthy income even when I have more the the minimum deposit in the bank Just how they do things. Yuo still have to copy the bank book for them as well. I ran onto a problem this years with the bank I had used for four years. They wanted to do it thier way no matter the immigration's demands. Put me in a bad situtation, but I finally got a letter close to what immigration in Nong Khai wants. I got the extension and a new bank the following day.

Some people here in the area have gotten so frustrated with Nong Khia immigration, that they went to Bangkok. Things went much easier for them. However they were required to sign a statement saying the wouild only renew thier visas in Bangkok, from then on.

I to have heard rumors as well of changes coming but that seems to be a normal thing in the course of events here.

The reality it is Thailands law and Thai's can change it.

These ar interesting times a new government is in power at the moment, to be changed to another soon. Who will enact laws a they see fit. We as farrangs may or may not be welcome in Thailand.

I don't see that long time farrang residents are particularly welcome in the first place.

The requirements went from 200K to 400K overnight since I have been here. They had no problem changing that law and they won't have one changing it again.

Nothing says they have to be reasonable. We are guests here and I don't see that changing.

[astral]

The (retirement?) requirements went from 200K to 400K overnight since I have been here. They had no problem changing that law and they won't have one changing it again.

That change was definitely grandfathered...........

[meadish_sweetball]

Where in the rules you cited does it say 1 Year?

This question is about evidence of income for an application of extension of stay to live with Thai wife.

If you are looking for “1 year” in the English translation of the text under rule 7.17(6) of Police Order 606/2549, you are quite right that it is not there. The Thai original has this text:

(๖) กรณีสมรสกับหญิงไทย ฝ่ายใดฝ่าย

หนึ่ง หรือทั้งสองฝ่ายรวมกันต้องมีรายได้

เฉลี่ยทั้งปี ไม่น้อยกว่าเดือนละ ๔๐,๐๐๐

บาท เว้นแต่คนต่างด้าวนั้น ได้เดินทาง

เข้ามาในราชอาณาจักรก่อนที่คำสั่งนี้

มีผลใช้บังคับ และได้รับอนุญาตให้อยู่ใน

ราชอาณาจักรกรณีสมรสกับหญิงไทย

ต่อเนื่องตลอดมา หากไม่มีรายได้ตามที่

กำหนดข้างต้น ก็ต้องมีเงินฝากธนาคาร

ในประเทศไทย ในนามคนหนึ่งคนใดหรือ

ทั้งสองคน ไม่น้อยกว่า ๔๐๐,๐๐๐ บาท

โดยแสดงบัญชีเงินฝากย้อนหลัง ๓ เดือน

There are two English translations of the relevant part:

Sunbelt’s translation:

“In case of the applicant who is married to a Thai wife, one of them or both of them need to have the total annual income that is averaged out not less than 40,000 Baht per month.”

Immigration’s translation:

“In the case of an alien married to a Thai woman, any party or both must have a total income of not less than Baht 40,000 per month”

I do not know which of the two translations is more accurate, nor does it really matter: only the Thai original is relevant. Personally, I am inclined to believe that Sunbelt’s translation is the more accurate one.

Maestro

I believe I can help with the translation from Thai. Here is how I would put it:

In case of marriage with a Thai woman: either of the parties, or both of them together, has to have an average income of at least 40.000 baht per month, the average calculated on a per-year basis.

This means that the income can be either the wife's, the husband's, or their combined income. The average monthly income is calculated over one year.

As in Sunbelt's example, the word 'average' is clearly used.

รายได้เฉลี่ยทั้งปี means 'average income throughout the entire year', and เฉลี่ย specifically means 'average'.

It should be noted though, that there is no mention of when the yearly period starts. I would presume it is based on the date of application being the last day, and 365 days prior to that is the first day, but that is just my own presumption and may be incorrect, and unfortunately the lack of info in this regard may leave room for varying interpretation by individual Immigration Officers.

[ray23]

The (retirement?) requirements went from 200K to 400K overnight since I have been here. They had no problem changing that law and they won't have one changing it again.

That change was definitely grandfathered...........

I realize, want to show me where it is a retirement visa? cause I have never seen that. My belief is it is an annual visa renewable if you qaulify again the next year.

To my knolwedge Thailand does not have a retirement visa, wish they did.

[lopburi3]

No it is not a visa. It is an extension of your previous non immigrant visa entry (extension of stay).

[Robbie Dye]

Singapore currently will issue a multi with proof of 400k in a bank account somewhere and normal marriage paperwork. There is one report that Penang is also adopting this procedure but no first person reports of that. KL has been known to provide even without any financial evidence.

I organise Penang trips, and my Malaysian Visa Agent in Penang called me last week to say that Penang IS now issuing one year Non Immig B and O, subject to correct paperwork. I am trying to get a list of that stuff so I can advise my clients. Will post when I get it isan

[RalphUK]

To my knolwedge Thailand does not have a retirement visa, wish they did.

Oh dear that old chestnut.

Yes, strictly you are correct. But embassy sites (London for example) issue what they describe as a retirement visa. We pedants know it is an O visa issued for long stay purposes.

Thai immigration refer to extending a visa. We pedants know we are extending our permission to stay.

I know that this forum has taken it upon itself to educate people into using correct terminology but it does become a bore.

[Maestro]

...Thai immigration refer to extending a visa... educate people into using correct terminology but it does become a bore.

I share your amusement abut Immigration’s incorrect use of terminology in at least one part of its web site. They give you a link named “Visa extensions” but the form they give you to fill in is correctly called “Application for temporary extension of stay in the Kingdom”.

Being constantly reminded of the correct terms can indeed become a bore if you are already perfectly familiar with them, but it is also a fact that a poster can get the desired information faster if he uses the correct terms. Quite often, a poster asks about a “visa run” and it is not clear which of the three more or less equally popular uses of this term he means and people trying to help him take some time to guess what he means, or they reply extensively with “if...then...otherwise if...then...otherwise...”. Sometimes, they get no answer at all.

Another example is “visa renewal” with two vastly different popular uses. If the poster is in Thailand, and sometimes he doesn’t even say so, does he mean going to a Thai consulate, ie outside Thailand, and get a new visa, or does he mean annual extension of stay, ie within Thailand? Another but less frequent use of “visa renewal” is one of the popular uses of “visa run”, ie leave Thailand and immediately re-enter for the purpose of activating another entry of a tourist visa valid for more than one entry, or obtaining a new 90-day permission to stay based on a multiple-entry non-O visa.

There are other possible pitfalls. Just today, for example, some posters fell into the VOA trap when replying to somebody about inquiring about the real VOA (visa on arrival)

On the whole, I should say that it is worthwhile for a poster asking a question to make the effort to use the correct terminology, to the best of his knowledge. It makes your life easier when you reply to a query, and it makes it easier for everybody else to understand what is being talked about.

--

Maestro

[astral]

I am sorry I cannot find the link, but Sunbelt has queried this with the Head of Immigration

and the "grandfathering" will continue for those in the system before Oct 2006.

We cannot get closer to the horses mouth than that.

[ray23]

To my knolwedge Thailand does not have a retirement visa, wish they did.

Oh dear that old chestnut.

Yes, strictly you are correct. But embassy sites (London for example) issue what they describe as a retirement visa. We pedants know it is an O visa issued for long stay purposes.

Thai immigration refer to extending a visa. We pedants know we are extending our permission to stay.

I know that this forum has taken it upon itself to educate people into using correct terminology but it does become a bore.

Sorry guys not a terminology issue, I would like to see a retirement visa not an annual. I assure you it is not boring at all when you sit in front of that immigration official with the denied stamp handy.. Especially after you have invested years in building a life here. I doubt that will ever happen.

[Maestro]

Sorry guys not a terminology issue, I would like to see a retirement visa not an annual...

Define “retirement visa” as used by you in the context of your post.

I am pretty sure you mean one stamp giving you permission to stay in Thailand for the rest of your life without the need for annual applications of extension of stay.

I am sure that you are not the only one wishing that such indefinite permission to stay would come to exist for retired persons. There is Permanent Residency, but it is not at all what you are dreaming about, not for a person who lived and worked outside Thailand for all his life and then chooses to retire in Thailand. There is the Elite Card, a program rumoured to be terminated soon, and I am not even sure if it allows the holder to stay indefinitely, without renewals. I believe I have seen posts about a five-year validity, but don’t take my word for it.

Never say never, but for the moment it looks too much to hope for.

--

Maestro

[bobbyphon]

The Immigration Offices continue to inform those who are renewing their marriage visas that from next year the grandfather rule:

- Either 40k monthly income

- Or 400k continuously laying in the Bank for 3 months before to apply for a renewal

- Or a combination of the two possibilities

will be dropped

the last news I heard was:

- 40k income

- AND 100K continuously laying in the Bank for 3 months before to apply for a renewal

What will be the fate of the retirement visa presently at 800k in Bank or 65k monthly income or a combination of the two options?

Many peoples can with sacrifice and effort meet the deposit in Bank rule but cant show a monthly income.

Regards

Hi there.. Bobby here, in the USA, question? In all the comments regarding money.. I see 40K, 400K, 4000,000K.. To me that means "thousands" in US dollars.. For example, I can't believe the Thai government would require a retiree to have 400,000.00 thousand dollars (12,910,000. Baht) in an account.. Someone please define your use of "k" Thanks... a landowner in concert with my Thai wife... of houses and farm land in Thailand... The Udonthania type...

[beechguy]

The Immigration Offices continue to inform those who are renewing their marriage visas that from next year the grandfather rule:

- Either 40k monthly income

- Or 400k continuously laying in the Bank for 3 months before to apply for a renewal

- Or a combination of the two possibilities

will be dropped

the last news I heard was:

- 40k income

- AND 100K continuously laying in the Bank for 3 months before to apply for a renewal

What will be the fate of the retirement visa presently at 800k in Bank or 65k monthly income or a combination of the two options?

Many peoples can with sacrifice and effort meet the deposit in Bank rule but cant show a monthly income.

Regards

Hi there.. Bobby here, in the USA, question? In all the comments regarding money.. I see 40K, 400K, 4000,000K.. To me that means "thousands" in US dollars.. For example, I can't believe the Thai government would require a retiree to have 400,000.00 thousand dollars (12,910,000. Baht) in an account.. Someone please define your use of "k" Thanks... a landowner in concert with my Thai wife... of houses and farm land in Thailand... The Udonthania type...

Fortunately, those amounts are in Thai Baht, not dollars.

[ray23]

Sorry guys not a terminology issue, I would like to see a retirement visa not an annual...

Define “retirement visa” as used by you in the context of your post.

I am pretty sure you mean one stamp giving you permission to stay in Thailand for the rest of your life without the need for annual applications of extension of stay.

I am sure that you are not the only one wishing that such indefinite permission to stay would come to exist for retired persons. There is Permanent Residency, but it is not at all what you are dreaming about, not for a person who lived and worked outside Thailand for all his life and then chooses to retire in Thailand. There is the Elite Card, a program rumoured to be terminated soon, and I am not even sure if it allows the holder to stay indefinitely, without renewals. I believe I have seen posts about a five-year validity, but don’t take my word for it.

Never say never, but for the moment it looks too much to hope for.

--

Maestro

Yes you hit the nail on the head.

[wolfmanjack]

I am sorry I cannot find the link, but Sunbelt has queried this with the Head of Immigration

and the "grandfathering" will continue for those in the system before Oct 2006.

We cannot get closer to the horses mouth than that.

Every one has to agree that was the official policy at that time. Every also has to agree that the official policy could change at any minute. All it takes is for one of these guys to go to a fortune teller and be told that falangs will be the downfall of thailand if we are not removed. That would be a joke if this wasn't thailand.

[geronimo]

You heard this where, when, from who, at what immigration office(s)? This is the first report I have seen with this information so I wonder why others have not been reporting this: but you have, it seems, heard this from many people?

I just renewed my one year extension (coming off a WP onto a marriage visa and showed 650k (500k deposited only two days before). It went fine, except that they asked me for photos and a map of my house. I was told by TV members that I wouldn't get the grandfather option. This was at Suan Plu and my friend went the next day and had to sign a statemment saying he would have the money in the account 3 months before applying next year. Consistently inconsistent I think.