Will She Try To Take Our Baby

[jaidee1]

Hi guys & galls, me & my Thai wife have been together for 4.5 years. We had a beautifull baby girl together. When our daughter was 4 months old my wife decided that she wanted to leave. She was going to take our baby & because of the lack of parents/family was going to give our baby to a stranger to look after & pay them x amount of baht per month, enabling her to work. This was not a situation I was happy with so she agreed to let me take our baby to the UK. Soon our daughter will be 13 months old & all her immunisations will be complete. I plan on returning to Thailand to resume my life & so that daughter & mother can see each other again. However I have a very real concern that my wife will want her baby back & this is not something I would be happy with. What would my legal situation be & what options will I have.

After all this time I really dont want to be without my baby, but at the same time want to return to Thailand.

Help, very confused.

[leisurely]

Have you had any contact with your wife while you were away? has she given any indication that she would like her daughter back? does she have any family? are you still married? would you be happy for her to be left alone with your daughter? IMHO, these are some of the variables that will enable people to give you better advice.

Good luck.

[MikeWill]

Without hijacking this topic... maybe someone could recommend an English speaking and knowledgeable lawyer (preferably in Bkk) specializing in family/child's custody/guardianship related matters at farang-Thai couples.

[jaidee1]

Have you had any contact with your wife while you were away? has she given any indication that she would like her daughter back? does she have any family? are you still married? would you be happy for her to be left alone with your daughter? IMHO, these are some of the variables that will enable people to give you better advice.

Good luck.

Yes my wife phones every 3/4 days, normally when she is extremely drunk. Sometimes she gets very aggresive, asks stupid questions like do I think our baby is mine, tells me not to beat our baby etc. She has family but only brothers & sisters, & they are not in a situation to look after our baby. Yes we are still married. If I left her alone with our daughter my concern is that she would run away & I would never see either of them again.

Thanks for the advice.

[Boo]

Under what legal terms do you have custody. Was it agreed in court or just an agreement between you & your wife? The most important thing would be to legalise the custody issue (if not already) before returning to LOS. Then you can arrange suitable visitation with your wife once you move back, with both parties aware of the legal repercussions if one or both of you breach them.

Best of luck.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

This sounds like a real can of worms. Maybe going to live in LOS is not the best option.

[gburns57au]

Many Thai women leave their babies with rellies while they go away to work, even go to other countries and leave their kids in Thailand....Not always because of selfishness but because it is better for the child.

2 reasons she wont hassle you....

1...she knows that the child will have a better life outside of Thailand

2..she wont have to pay for the support of the child.

However....send her photos and encourage her to keep contact, so that she knows the child is being well treated and looked after. Like most mothers...she will react if she feels she is bring shut out.

Legally....well you have to prove she is an unfit mother or that it is in the childs best interest to stay with you....How you do that is your affair.

[scottie dog]

Have you had any contact with your wife while you were away? has she given any indication that she would like her daughter back? does she have any family? are you still married? would you be happy for her to be left alone with your daughter? IMHO, these are some of the variables that will enable people to give you better advice.

Good luck.

Yes my wife phones every 3/4 days, normally when she is extremely drunk. Sometimes she gets very aggresive, asks stupid questions like do I think our baby is mine, tells me not to beat our baby etc. She has family but only brothers & sisters, & they are not in a situation to look after our baby. Yes we are still married. If I left her alone with our daughter my concern is that she would run away & I would never see either of them again.

Thanks for the advice.

If she is so drunk and offensive during your/her calls, do you really want your child in contact with this woman. When you return to the LOS do you intend to stay with the "wife" or find alternative female arrangements?

[Sheryl]

I think you are quite right to be concerned.

Before you even think about going back to Thailand you should take steps to end the marriage (either divorce or, if you prefer for some reason, legal separation) and get formal custody of your daughter. You should do this even if you don't go back to Thailand.

If you have legal custody of your child and your child has UK citizenship then you have some legal grounds to seek the child's return if your wife takes her, but that doesn't mean that local law enforcement will necessarily prove helpful and effective.

Your wife sounds unstable to say the least. I would think twice about going back to Thailand, and DEFINITELY not go until legal custody has been assured.

[jaidee1]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies. I have no intention of returning to my wife but at the same time dont want to stop her seeing our baby. She is a very unstable woman, our whole relationship has been extremely rocky. She has stolen from me, smashed my apartment/me up, cheated on me many times, she runs away every month or so for a few days at a time. Not a good enviroment for our daughter to grow up in.

How would I get legal custody of our child whilst living in the UK? surely she would have to be present. Although any legal arrangement wouldn't stop her taking our baby & disappearing. It would be very hard/impossible for me to find her if that was what she wanted.

It would be a shame not to return to the los as I would like our daughter to grow up speaking Thai & English + it is her country as well.

[chuchok]

Talk to a lawyer that is experienced in child custody and always think the worst of your wife and what she could do.

[phibunmike]

You know, I was just posting in the farming thread about my concerns about burning rice stubble.

Then as I backed out to the overall index, this thread caught my eye. It reminds me how easy it is to get caught up in something relatively un-important and "think too mut".

Good luck jaidee1, I will stop worrying about stubble burning now....

[maccaroni man]

i have seen it work like this; the child visits mother the mother tells father she is keeping the child and needs money to care for it, the father offers more money to child, mother takes money and returns child until next visit when it all repeats. if there is money in it she will probably use the child to get it.

[Etrigan]

I don't mean to be insensitive, but why come back here at all?

If everything you tell us is true about her, why on Earth would you let her anywhere near a baby? It defies common sense. Don't come back - not yet anyway.

[Sakeopete]

I have to ask how you got the child to the UK? Did she give you written permission? IMHO no matter what legal paperwork you obtain in Thailand, it is worthless because you are a Farang and I would bet no civil servant would be interested in helping you enforce it against a Thai (unless you give them a healthy donation to their mia noi fund). Please don't blast be for being cynical I've been here too long to have faith in Thai justice.

Good luck to you hope it works out.

[ding]

Pick one;

A child that needs a rational, reliable adult

Or a drunk wife that you don't trust with that child's welfare

If how you describe the situation is accurate, and you are even considering going back to a woman who is as you describe, then I'm worried for the child.

Don't go until you have the legal end locked up. Then don't leave the child out of you direct control for a moment. That or your wife ain't so bad, really.

Time to buck up and do the right thing. You have a helpless little life utterly dependent on you.

[pumpuiman]

How about seeking help for your wife, and allowing her to see her baby?

It's her child.

She loves it just as you do.

Help the poor woman, and give your child a healthy family to grow up in.

[Sheryl]

That sounds nice, Pumpui, but it will only work if she wants help. certainly, if she is at all amenable, the OP should try to get her into both counseling a psychiatrist's care.

Ding hit the nail on the head...the baby is helpless and mjust come first.

See a lawyer at once. Custody laws vary by country. Also will surely depend on whether or not your wife agrees or contests a request for sole custody. If you can get her to agree (perhaps in exchange for a financial settlement of some sort) then it will doubtless be easier...and she might not have to be there in country.

At the very least, get legal custody secured before coming back to Thailand and also take steps to ensure that any contact between your wife and the child is supervised. I tend to agree with other posters that it would be better not to return to Thailand at this point. I understand your wish for your child to grow up here, but I gather she's still an infant....there's time for that later.

People like your wife do not remain as is...over time they either worsen or get better. One way or another, it may be safe at some future point to bring the child back to Thailand but it does not sound like it is so now.

[Sheryl]

Addendum:

As it sounds like this woman is alcoholic....help (if she is accepting of it) should also include AA, which has branches in many parts of Thailand.

OP should contact Al-Anon, which has branches in both UK and Thailand, for help in dealing with this situation.

[helicoptor]

Speak to a lawyer in the UK first, then if or when you decide to come back to LOS consult a lawyer here.

An associate of mine is in a similar yet turnaround position, he is here with his son, the thai mother is in the UK, she calls every now and again (usually drunk) to speak to him, then asks for money.

If you like I can give you her number - you can look her up

Sorry - bad joke - seriously get a lawyer and Chok Dee

[Mahout Angrit]

My first time in this forum so a bit out of bounds but your sad situation is difficult to assess without knowing the character and moods of your wife. If you are in Thailand even if she is unlikely to do anything herself she could be sitting in bar with mates one night and they all persuade her that it would be great to go and kidnap your daughter, if they decided that as a group nothing would stop them.

Without knowing more about her life in Thailand I would suggest you stay in UK for a time, then maybe in a few years sneak back to Thailand in a different area if you really want to come back.

Also as has been suggested get the British passport and the custody sorted first.

You also dont say much about your personal circumstances, can you find work in Thailand? do you need to? if you are under 50 it has got very difficult to stay in Thailand not married to a Thai (a glance at the immigration to Thailand forum will show you that).

Good luck

[jaidee1]

Thanks for all the replies. The desire to return to Thailand is for a few reasons.

I dont want to deprive my wife her child

I dont want to deprive my child Thailand

I dont want to deprive myself of Thailand

It just seems that returning to Thailand will possibly cause so many more problems, mainly for my daughter who is just a child & deserves more from her parent/s.

I feel that my wifes situation will worsen if she is denied her daughter. When she is with her daughter she is a very good mother, she dotes on her. At the same time she sees no wrong in screaming, shouting & throwing things at me with our daughter in her arms.

I have no custody arrangement with my wife, our daughter has a UK passport.

Edited February 7, 2007 by jaidee1

[November Rain]

At the same time she sees no wrong in screaming, shouting & throwing things at me with our daughter in her arms.

Whether you can see it or not, I think you've just answered your own question about what's best for your child.

My (Thai) boyfriend was an alcoholic. He & his son lived with me. When he went on a bender, his whole personality would change from the sweetest, most loving, caring guy who adored his son & I, to a psychopathic monster.

He would physically hit me in front of "our" son & (God forgive me) being the person I am, I would fight back.

He died almost a year ago. Even now, our son talks about the fights. That is one of his enduring memories of his father's & my relationship. He doesn't seem to remember the love & the laughter, the caring we shared, just the fights. I have to try to explain to him that we did love each other, that Daddy was sick from the beer & the whisky and he should remember the good times.

Do you really want my son's memories to be your daughter's? Do you really want to have to keep explaining away your wife's behaviour or her feelings for you & yours for her?

Don't do that to her. Stability & love from one parent is far preferable to that sort of trauma.

[thaiprivateeye]

jaidee 1,

Your original question was “Will She Try To Take Our Baby, advice needed”

If you have known her all these years and you can’t answer that question then nobody here can answer it either. Only your wife knows the answer…

I have dealt with quite a few heartbreaking cases whereby the (Thai) mother has just up and disappeared with the children. When that happens you (husband) are stuffed mate…

• Forget about expecting help from the family…

• Forget about expecting help from your/her circle of (Thai) friends…

• Above all forget about expecting any help from the Thai authorities…

You state three basic reasons to come to LOS…

1) “I don’t want to deprive my wife her child.”

• Arrange for a short vacation together either where you are now, or another country…
  
• You keep hold of the child’s passport documents…
  
• Secure them in a hotel safe! Don’t leave it in the room or carry it with you, etc.
  
• If she is determined she will get you drunk or maybe worse and then she is off!
  
• That way you and have complete control over the situation.
  

2) “I don’t want to deprive my child Thailand.”

• The baby is only 13months old you could take her to Moscow and she would not know!

3) “I don’t want to deprive myself of Thailand“… There you go mate!

• Then come to LOS and don’t tell a soul… Not even your own friends/family! Don’t bring the child.
  
• If the mother even she gets a hint that you are out of the country (she call’s every 3/4 days,
  normally when she is extremely drunk) she will suspect something…
  
• You wrote: ”Sometimes she gets very aggresive, asks stupid questions like do I think our baby
  is mine, tells me not to beat our baby etc.”
  
• The key words here are TELLS ME NOT TO BEAT OUR BABY!
  
• She may call up police (when she is drunk) to have immigration flag your name for child abuse!
  
• After all she will have witnesses (family/friends) available to confirm her story that has asked
  (NO! TOLD YOU) many times before not to beat HERbaby!!! Then what?
  
• Then the immigration will have to take action especially with all this commotion about preventing
  child molesters from visiting Thailand.
  
• They may even take temporary custody of the child when you arrive in Thailand.
  At least until it can be sorted. Who could blame them?
  
• She may bring charges against you for child endangerment she may not! But the fact that it’s
  her Thai child and that you are in her Thailand that will be against you.
  
• You may even have to spend some time in a cell till its sorted… TIT!
  
• Eventually she will get custody back of the child and dissapear, then you are stuffed mate!
  
• It seems to me that you are dealing with a typical irrational Thai woman here and, the fact that
  your child is a girl means that (in themothers mind) not only have you taken her child, you have
  taken her financial security for the future… Her social security pension…
  
• The mother (and her family) will be well aware that if the child is brought up and educated
  outside of Thailand then there is very little or no chance that she will work bar to meet a nice
  (maybe not so nice... just guillable) Rich Falang and finish building the family house…
  

Ok I know it is all supposition on my part as I don’t know the situation.

And some people may think I am over exaggerating the possibilities.

But believe me when I say that I have seen things like this happen before that will turn the Land of Smiles into a Land of Sorrow.

It does not give me pleasure to tell a client that he can't legally force his wife to hand over the child/children even if they are living in a mud hut and that he should forget about her/him them... It's heartbreaking to see a grown man cry!!!

At least in this case (jaidee 1) has the upper hand at the moment because the child is in his custody in the UK...

Even so, it is better to be aware of what could happen..

Remember this is Thailand...

Forewarned is forearmed...

In my opinion it is just too risky to bring the baby to Thailand. Forget it…

PARENTS SHOULD READ THIS!

PARENTAL KIDNAPPING IS NOT A CRIME IN THAILAND!!!

GENERAL INFORMATION: Parental Kidnapping is not a crime in Thailand and Thai authorities will not issue a warrant or become involved should one parent take a child without the other parent's authorization. The Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction cannot be invoked if a child is taken from the United States to Thailand, or vice versa, by one parent against the wishes of the other parent or in violation of a U.S. custody order.

http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction/c...ountry_528.html

JMHO.

TPE II

[jts-khorat]

My understanding of the legal situation here in Thaokand is: as long as you do not have formal sole custody of the child, the mother has all the rihgt to simply take the child and leave; you would then fight for custody in court what might take a while, in which timespan you have no legal rihgt to the child.

Was on the receiving end of such a thing (it resolved amicably after a short while) but police and lawyers told me that there would be nothing I could do.

If your wife is that unstable, DO NOT let her near the child until you have full legal rights; and keep this documentation on hand for a worst case scenario.

Sorry, for this scenario there are no godd news.

[Thai-Spy]

Despite a few generalizations in thaiprivateeye's post with which we would not concur, there's a large measure of wisdom there. Read it twice, read it thrice, and make sure it sinks in. The central message is that in any conflict between the mother's wishes for the child and the OP's wishes for the child, if that conflict takes place in Thailand, there's a probability above 95% that the OP is, to put it plainly, screwed.

The OP's goal, if you don't mind, should be to assure that the child has a stable and loving home, a good upbringing, and a chance for a healthy and successful life. All other factors such as location and personnel are secondary considerations.

[JacknDanny]

Despite a few generalizations in thaiprivateeye's post with which we would not concur, there's a large measure of wisdom there. Read it twice, read it thrice, and make sure it sinks in. The central message is that in any conflict between the mother's wishes for the child and the OP's wishes for the child, if that conflict takes place in Thailand, there's a probability above 95% that the OP is, to put it plainly, screwed.

The OP's goal, if you don't mind, should be to assure that the child has a stable and loving home, a good upbringing, and a chance for a healthy and successful life. All other factors such as location and personnel are secondary considerations.

I disagree with the above.

If you want to live in Thailand, get yourself a lawyer over here in Thailand. From the information the OP has stated here, then there is a 99% chance he will succeed in getting sole custody of the child.

I did it a couple of years ago, found an extremely competent lawyer (Khun Perasit, partner at Pensit & Laws)

Not cheap but 100k got me total peace of mind and I am now sole custodian of my child. But it is imperative that you allow the lawyers to sort it out

[NedKelly]

As Sakeopete says...she is Thai and you'd be hard presssed to get the authroities to act against her......remember ......remind yourself.....TIT !!

She sounds like a real tosser and for sure your daughter is better off without her in her life.

[jaidee1]

Hi guys, just a quick update & another question. Still in the UK at the moment but thinking of returning to the LOS in about 1 month. Is it true that with the mothers consent we can go to the local amphur & complete paerwork of some sort that gives me custody of our child.

My thinking behind this is, if she is willing to do this I would feel a lot more comfortable allowing her a bit more freedom with our child.

The situation as it now stands. She still phones regularly, but she is not drunk. She has sent our daughter clothes & toys. She also says that if I return to Thailand she wants Sakari to live with me as she will have a better life, all she wants is to be able to see her on a regular basis.

I now feel more comfortable returning to Thailand. The custody side of it would be the clincher.

Thanks for all your help.

Paul.

[lost_in_space]

I have to agree with Sakeopete, based on my very limited experience with this kind of stuff in Thailand. A farang friend of mine was advised by his own lawyer to "get out of Dodge before sundown", lest he get in more trouble than just losing custody of his daughter. Now he's back in the states, and his child is here.

These situations are unpredictable, don't roll the dice!

As a father of a baby girl myself, I couldn't imagine gambling with losing her.

I can understand you wanting to come back to Thailand. Just do it right, don't be a fool, don't be an exceptionalist. Be a hard-nosed realist, they end up happier.