Thai Domestic Electrical Work.

[elkangorito]

The questions are self explanatory. If possible, please give reasons for your choices. Please cite 'real' cases & not 'stories'.

Edited March 30, 2007 by elkangorito

[ilyushin]

No, No, Yes!

Just like me old teenage girl friend.

[Crossy]

Good poll sir

I reckon that the stuff done on industrial / office projects is pretty OK, professional, trained chaps. Still get the odd blooper though.

It's at domestic level when Somchai and the other guys with a roll of tape and a pair of scissors get involved as 'electricians' where the problems are (and where most of us will worry about it).

EDIT Dare removed, someone will, just for the h3ll of it!

Edited March 30, 2007 by Crossy

[elkangorito]

Good poll sir

I reckon that the stuff done on industrial / office projects is pretty OK, professional, trained chaps. Still get the odd blooper though.

It's at domestic level when Somchai and the other guys with a roll of tape and a pair of scissors get involved as 'electricians' where the problems are (and where most of us will worry about it).

EDIT Dare removed, someone will, just for the h3ll of it!

You're exactly right Crossy. I should've made certain that the poll is directed at domestic installations in the title.

[Crossy]

You're exactly right Crossy. I should've made certain that the poll is directed at domestic installations in the title.

PM a Mod, they can edit for you

[chownah]

Lump all of the electrical installations in Thailand into one bundle and then make a good/bad determination....ridiculous!!!

[GuestHouse]

Well it's a loaded poll isn't it.

I mean if the choice all safe or all not safe.

My professional experience and observation is that there is a range of excellent to abysmal, just like there is a range of excellent to abysmal in the west.

On this particular subject, as with many similar subjects (obtaining good quality service in Thailand) I personally would prefer less encouragement of the view that employing a foreigner as the option and more information on two fronts:

A) Those members with experience sharing it with all members so that each of us can help ourselves in deciding how to choose good local Thai help/service.

Those members who have had good or bad experience with Thai electricians (or any other service provider) passing on their cautions and or recommendations.

There is nothing intrinsically difficult about domestic electrical installation, many many Thais do a great job (let's hear who they are) and more over, with the right guidance non electrician members of TV can easily learn enough to help them choose and recognize good electrical installation.

How about that as an aim for the board, rather than promoting dependence on 'Foreign Experts'?!

And as I imply above, the same goes for any service in Thailand.

Edited March 30, 2007 by GuestHouse

[Tywais]

You're exactly right Crossy. I should've made certain that the poll is directed at domestic installations in the title.

PM a Mod, they can edit for you

Done, but if you want it changed again - just let me know.

[gcad]

There is definitely room for improvement in Thai domestic wiring practices.

I wouldn't trust a Thai electrician with my house unless I supervised the entire installation. In contrast to GuestHouse I believe domestic electrical installations are intrinsically difficult because the electrician takes on the responsibility of the electrical safety for all who set foot in that house from the day it is wired to the day it is demolished. Although I do agree that is not hard to wire a house so that the electrical system is functional, anybody can do that.

My criticisms

-A general lack of an earthing system and consequently residual current devices.

-Ability to insert plugs upside down, ie. No care for polarity.

-No switches on power points.

-Exposed wiring on walls.

-Every hotel I have been to has had bed lamps wired in figure 8 (speaker cable).

-"Spaghetti" wiring out in the streets makes the country look third world, someone needs to invent the cable tie.

-Often only single insulated wiring is used. I've seen this at Suvarnabhumi airport in the cable trays and also in ceiling spaces.

My praise

-Exposed wiring, although exposed, has been clipped straight and looks neat (inside buildings anyway).

-Steel conduit work at Suvarnabhumi airport is top notch.

[Gary A]

I have to judge the workmanship as being quite good. Nice neat bends and wires run straight and neat. The two wire system with no ground (earth) is not safe. The common wire frequently has voltage passing through it. My florescent ceiling lights flicker all the time when turned off. Reversing the wires does no good. Some of the cheaper hot water heaters don't even have ELB's and that could be an accident waiting to happen. Most switches, outlets and light fixtures are simply cheap junk.

[chownah]

I have to judge the workmanship as being quite good. Nice neat bends and wires run straight and neat. The two wire system with no ground (earth) is not safe. The common wire frequently has voltage passing through it. My florescent ceiling lights flicker all the time when turned off. Reversing the wires does no good. Some of the cheaper hot water heaters don't even have ELB's and that could be an accident waiting to happen. Most switches, outlets and light fixtures are simply cheap junk.

Hey, Gary A, I used to have fluorescent flickers that kept me awake at night!!! I installed a large capacitor across the supply wires at the offending light and it solved the problem...I don't remember what the ratings were for the one I used....maybe the sparkies here can advise on this.

Chownah

[Naam]

Most switches, outlets and light fixtures are simply cheap junk.

but that is up to the selection of those who are building the home. if one selects junk and is not prepared to pay for adequate quality one gets junk. i have no problems with the aforementioned items (imported from Italy and Germany) and i wish all subcontractors had worked on my home like the electrician.

in spite of communication problems he worked to my full satisfaction although my technical demands were skyhigh above general standard.

[elkangorito]

There is definitely room for improvement in Thai domestic wiring practices.

I wouldn't trust a Thai electrician with my house unless I supervised the entire installation. In contrast to GuestHouse I believe domestic electrical installations are intrinsically difficult because the electrician takes on the responsibility of the electrical safety for all who set foot in that house from the day it is wired to the day it is demolished. Although I do agree that is not hard to wire a house so that the electrical system is functional, anybody can do that.

My criticisms

-A general lack of an earthing system and consequently residual current devices.

-Ability to insert plugs upside down, ie. No care for polarity.

-No switches on power points.

-Exposed wiring on walls.

-Every hotel I have been to has had bed lamps wired in figure 8 (speaker cable).

-"Spaghetti" wiring out in the streets makes the country look third world, someone needs to invent the cable tie.

-Often only single insulated wiring is used. I've seen this at Suvarnabhumi airport in the cable trays and also in ceiling spaces.

My praise

-Exposed wiring, although exposed, has been clipped straight and looks neat (inside buildings anyway).

-Steel conduit work at Suvarnabhumi airport is top notch.

gcad A good post I've bolded a part, which I think is very relevant...far too many people 'think' that they can do electrical work just because they know a little of the technical aspect. Unfortunately, as you & I know, it goes a lot deeper than this.

I have to judge the workmanship as being quite good. Nice neat bends and wires run straight and neat. The two wire system with no ground (earth) is not safe. The common wire frequently has voltage passing through it. My florescent ceiling lights flicker all the time when turned off. Reversing the wires does no good. Some of the cheaper hot water heaters don't even have ELB's and that could be an accident waiting to happen. Most switches, outlets and light fixtures are simply cheap junk.

Hey, Gary A, I used to have fluorescent flickers that kept me awake at night!!! I installed a large capacitor across the supply wires at the offending light and it solved the problem...I don't remember what the ratings were for the one I used....maybe the sparkies here can advise on this.

Chownah

Chownah, even though my wish is to not turn this thread into another technical discussion, I would NOT recommend putting capacitors across the supply wires of any device where an inductor is incorporated. In your case, I think that you have luckily 'guessed' an appropriate size for the capacitor involved. Should you have chosen an inappropriate size, resonance may have resulted (in this case, SERIES resonance), which would then induce very high voltages (possibly in the thousands of volts). Such high voltages would have destroyed the device. Even if resonance is not achieved, as resonance is approached the voltage will increase on a hyperbolic scale. Also, voltages that exceed the rating of the cable insulation will eventually destroy the insulation, resulting in an electrical fault.

GuestHouse, I'm sorry the poll choices are not to your liking but as you said, "My professional experience and observation is that there is a range of excellent to abysmal..." Just compare the number of abysmal to excellent & pick the highest number. Surely this will help you to arrive at a simple 'yes/no' answer?

Also, this poll is not about encouraging foreigners to replace Thai workers. I suggest that this is your view. On the other hand, it would not be a stupid idea to employ foreigners simply as teachers of the 'trade', which I believe to be a good idea. Once the people here have understood how to do the work properly, foreigners would then be superfluous.

Gents, thanks for the feedback...keep it coming. But I would prefer if this topic/thread did not turn into technical debates. I think those debates are best had elsewhere on TV.

I think stories of both bad & good electrical installations would be a good thing for all to see.

[Pink Mist]

Does any one realise that a capacitor represents a short circuit to AC?

[Pink Mist]

Does anyone realise why capacitors are used in fluros?

[Pink Mist]

How many of you experts are actually QUALIFIED ELECTRICALLY

[elkangorito]

Does any one realise that a capacitor represents a short circuit to AC?

No it doesn't.

Connect a 16 microfarad cap across a 240v, 50Hz supply;

Xc = 198.9 Ohms

Current in the capacitor = V divided by Xc

= 1.2 Amps.

Does anyone realise why capacitors are used in fluros?

Power Factor correction.

As previously mentioned, I would prefer if technical debates were reserved for other existing topics.

Edited March 31, 2007 by elkangorito

[chownah]

Does any one realise that a capacitor represents a short circuit to AC?

No it doesn't.

Connect a 16 microfarad cap across a 240v, 50Hz supply;

Xc = 198.9 Ohms

Current in the capacitor = V divided by Xc

= 1.2 Amps.

Does anyone realise why capacitors are used in fluros?

Power Factor correction.

As previously mentioned, I would prefer if technical debates were reserved for other existing topics.

If you prefer technical debates be made elsewhere then you should not take part in technical debates here. So am I not to be allowed to enter into this technical discussion because after the OP takes part in a technical debate he now wants to cut the debate off? Is this how it works?

And by the way the capacitor works fine and draws almost no current....a lucky guess? What makes anyone think I guessed at the capacitor size. OK, can you guess how much current will flow across a 16,000 microfarad capacitor at 50Hz 220V?

Chownah

chownah

Edited March 31, 2007 by chownah

[Crossy]

How many of you experts are actually QUALIFIED ELECTRICALLY

Well, I'm pretty sure you are, I know I am, and I'm 99% certain that Elkangorito is. As to some of the others, the jury is still out

[chownah]

How many of you experts are actually QUALIFIED ELECTRICALLY

Well, I'm pretty sure you are, I know I am, and I'm 99% certain that Elkangorito is. As to some of the others, the jury is still out

I'm not qualified for anything...and I'm no expert and that's why my fluorescents don't flicker and Gary A's do even after posting many times here trying to get them fixed by the qualified people.

You don't have to be qualified to have a brain and to be willing to use it. In fact it is my experience in life that qualified people (not talking about anyone here though) quite often rely too much on their qualifications and too little on their brains.

Poncho Ville, "We don't need no stinking qualifications".

Edited March 31, 2007 by chownah

[Tywais]

Come on guys, let's try to keep it a little less tense. I'm a professional EE also but don't usually post in these topics because they are usually handled well and clearly, but too many professional egos seem to be getting bruised easily.

[Gary A]

I'm CERTAINLY not a qualified electrician but it appears that there are a lot of NON qualified electricians here in the Kingdom. I only know that you are NOT supposed to get a shock from appliances. Pulling the plug when not using that appliance is not a cure but that's how it is done here. I'm just amazed that more people don't get electrocuted.

I do understand that my method of eliminating shocks is probably not the correct way and does not suit the sparkies, BUT, connecting the chassis of these appliances to an earth rod works.

[Crossy]

You don't have to be qualified to have a brain and to be willing to use it. In fact it is my experience in life that qualified people (not talking about anyone here though) quite often rely too much on their qualifications and too little on their brains.

Abso-bloody-lutely!!

Find it a lot with new graduates, the know everything "do it like this" types. Then the whole lot comes crashing down around their ears, because they designed the system to 'work' they did not design it to fail gracefully which is essential in my business (rail systems).

I admit that I was like that too until I had the corners knocked off by the old fogies who actually knew! Now I'm one of the old fogies, hey I'm not 50 yet (getting close though).

[mikethevigoman]

The questions are self explanatory. If possible, please give reasons for your choices. Please cite 'real' cases & not 'stories'.

no, no, yes, at the right /fair price !

[technocracy]

You don't have to be qualified to have a brain and to be willing to use it. In fact it is my experience in life that qualified people (not talking about anyone here though) quite often rely too much on their qualifications and too little on their brains.

Abso-bloody-lutely!!

Find it a lot with new graduates, the know everything "do it like this" types. Then the whole lot comes crashing down around their ears, because they designed the system to 'work' they did not design it to fail gracefully which is essential in my business (rail systems).

I admit that I was like that too until I had the corners knocked off by the old fogies who actually knew! Now I'm one of the old fogies, hey I'm not 50 yet (getting close though).

I have to say I can't agree with this more! Being 'fully' qualified in many walks of life in reality a lot of the time means absolutely squat! Using your brain and using common sense is far more important than any piece of paper stating your 'qualified' will ever be.

Same in electrics because lets face it actually wiring a house out isn't rocket science! The 'how to do' documents all over the internet show it's a pretty simple affair - HOWEVER - having the intelligence to digest the information and ensure it's put into practise correctly is the difficult bit. Here I think is where the Thai and Lao electrical housing installations falldown.

The quality level of work performed/expected over here is way below what you would expect in the west. I have seen this all to often in my house that is currently being built, this is why I insisted on installing the electrics.

Lao electricians first of love 32amp breakers, love using the minimal amount of wire possible and don't seems to understand the need for separate ciruits i.e. All outlets, lights sockets, fans, air con, showers are stuck on a single 'radial'. Then they like to jumper in the back of the off the back of outlets to switches . .. .

I have seen new installations performed like this - which confounded me! I though other places were just botched afterwards!

Not to mention full switch panels and outlets in bathrooms (complete with hairdryers next to the sink!!!!!!!)

[Pink Mist]

Does any one realise that a capacitor represents a short circuit to AC?

No it doesn't.

Connect a 16 microfarad cap across a 240v, 50Hz supply;

Xc = 198.9 Ohms

Current in the capacitor = V divided by Xc

= 1.2 Amps.

Power Factor correction.

that's why they are used to couple amplifiers???

As previously mentioned, I would prefer if technical debates were reserved for other existing topics.

that's why they are used to couple amplifiers, that's why when ac is used on a relay that has a capacitor across a set of contacts, you have to cut the capacitor out.

I will agre it's not a short circuit exactly, but in practical situations it must be considered.

[mosquitoman]

Some failings I notice include,

The lack of mechanical connectors, alot of the time wires have been twisted and then taped.

Cable way under size, the use of 1.0mm cable where I would have expected to see 2.5mm cable.

No fuseboard or segmenting of circuits, quite often everything gets lumped onto a single 30amp fuse which then acts as protection for lighting, sockets water heasters etc

Location of sockets and switches in wet areas such as barthrooms and kitchens.

As a previous poster pointed out very little attention to earthing, or earth bonding ie protecting metal items in contact with water.

Use of pooor quality switches, plugs etc

Mish mash of sockets, some that accept round pin, some that accept only square pin etc

MM

[taxexile]

below are some photos of wiring (for lighting and air-con units) installed in the space above the false ceiling of our condo , and under the water outlet of the sink in the kitchen.

this was done by an expensive european run company , we eventually called in a local thai electrician and an air-con company to sort out the mess (wires joined without connectors , and taped with non insulating scotch tape , messy spaghetti wiring , paper and other inflammable stuff littering the space up there , live wires left hanging and untaped etc.etc.

also included is a picture of how a sanitary towel and sellotape may be used to stop a leaking water pipe (for illustrative purposes only)

pm me if you are in hua hin and want to know who not to use.

the thais sorted it all out after the european company would not pay attention to our complaints , and left it neater and safer.

18 months on , no fires , water leaks , or blown fuses.......... but our fingers are still crossed.

[mosquitoman]

this was done by an expensive european run company , we eventually called in a local thai electrician and an air-con company to sort out the mess

My experience too, I have met alot of europeans and antipodeans here who claim to be builders etc, but are complete cowboys.

MM

[taxexile]

there is no shortage of very capable and knowledgable local electricians , the problems arise when they get too much work , and they subcontract or call their cousins away from the hammock to come and help , and the work doesnt get checked or supervised.