May Thoo/may Han Aakaat

[Boon Mee]

Snowleopard, Richard etc.

What is a good rule to use when attempting to distinguish between May Thoo & May Han Aakaat? Some texts make it difficult and the only way I've learned thus far is to recognize the size of the loop?

Cheers,

Boon Mee

[snowleopard]

Snowleopard, Richard etc.

What is a good rule to use when attempting to distinguish between May Thoo & May Han Aakaat?  Some texts make it difficult and the only way I've learned thus far is to recognize the size of the loop?

Cheers,

Boon Mee

Hi there Boon Mee,

I'm so happy to see another old Thailand hand who's begun posting in the language forum.

I write a lot of Thai on the board during lessons and my Thai students used to complain some years ago that my "mai-toh" and "mai-hun-ahgaht" looked very similar; so I tried correcting it by first making the loop and then going south while turning a bit to the left before getting northbound while simultaneously turning slightly to the right!

The "mai-toh" that is!

I hope this description makes sense to you because I'm a bit tipsy right now!

Anyway,my students are happy nowadays and say I'm even better than their Thai teachers,which gives me a kick to hear!

Here's how they look on a Thai keyboard:

Mai-toh on ah-ahng:อ้อ้อ้อ้อ้อ้อ้อ้อ้อ้

mai-hun-ahgaht on ah-ahng:อัอัอัอัอัอั

They do look similar,don't they?

Get the magnifier glass on the screen and you'll see the difference!

I'll try to explain it better when I get sober again one of these days!

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[sabaijai]

Snowleopard, Richard etc.

What is a good rule to use when attempting to distinguish between May Thoo & May Han Aakaat?  Some texts make it difficult and the only way I've learned thus far is to recognize the size of the loop?

Cheers,

Boon Mee

Boonmee

There's no loop in a mai thoh. It's a stylised numeral '2'.

Compare

ต้น

and

ตัน

Granted, with some fonts - such as this one - they do look pretty similar at a quick glance, but most of the time they won't be used in the same environments (my examples are exceptions). With most fonts and certainly with cursive script they look very distinctive.

Also generally speaking the mai hanakat is placed more to the right, almost straddling the two consonants it links, while the mai thoh is placed more to the left (in some styles, directly over the first consonant).

When I worked as a Thai translator/interpreter in California years ago I translated a lot of hand-written legal docs - marriage & birth certificates for example - as well as hand-written letters from Thai prisoners in state prisons. It was a good way to learn all the different styles in which Thais typically write the language. After awhile you stop looking at the loops and simply recognise word shapes.

[snowleopard]

Snowleopard, Richard etc.

What is a good rule to use when attempting to distinguish between May Thoo & May Han Aakaat?  Some texts make it difficult and the only way I've learned thus far is to recognize the size of the loop?

Cheers,

Boon Mee

Boonmee

Also generally speaking the mai hanakat is placed more to the right, almost straddling the two consonants it links, while the mai thoh is placed more to the left (in some styles, directly over the first consonant).

Thank you very much for that particular insight Sabaijai!

It makes a lot of sense to me!

Please keep on posting things like that,will you?

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[Richard W]

Snowleopard, Richard etc.

What is a good rule to use when attempting to distinguish between May Thoo & May Han Aakaat?  Some texts make it difficult and the only way I've learned thus far is to recognize the size of the loop?

Cheers,

Boon Mee

Boonmee

There's no loop in a mai thoh. It's a stylised numeral '2'.

Compare

ต้น

and

ตัน

Granted, with some fonts - such as this one - they do look pretty similar at a quick glance, but most of the time they won't be used in the same environments (my examples are exceptions). With most fonts and certainly with cursive script they look very distinctive.

A strange thing about mai tho is that it looks a lot more like a European 2 than the corresponding Thai digit ๒ . Conversely, mai tri e.g. อ๊ does like more like the corresponding Thai digit ๓ than a European 3, though the difference between these two digits is chiefly a rotation. Reverting, mai chattawa looks a bit like a European 4 and nothing like the Thai digit ๔!

Historically, mai tho started out as a simple cross - presumably one groove for mai ek and two grooves for mai tho. (Mai tri and mai chattawa weren't yet needed.)

I've recently been trying to learn the Lanna script (tua mueang), which is also used, along with a reformed version, for Tai Lue, a Tai language chiefly spoken in China. In the proposal for inclusion in Unicode, mai tho 'sign of third tone' is given in box 92 (it's a vertical line and a diagonal line on its right almost joining at their base). Plain mai han aakaat is omitted(!), but when combined with mai tho, as in box 93, it's a parallel diagonal line. However, when I look at some Thai[http://www.pinpia.com/lannafont.htm]Lanna fonts[/url] - I think their provenance is given at http://se-ed.net/tua-mueng/, but I canot download from that site - the vertical line of mai tho is almost completely missing. At very large sizes (36 points and above) there is a tiny vertical projection at the base of the diagonal for mai tho, but otherwise mai tho and mai han-aakaat are indistinguishable!

I don't know if it's a coincidence, but in the handwriting of my wife, who comes from Chiangdao in Chaingmai province, mai tho and mai han aakaat are indistinguishable. It's not like some difficult letter pairs, where I can often identify a letter immediately.

[Boon Mee]

Thanks fellas for all the good help. I'm sure to be back w/more questions as time goes on. Who needs thai-language.com when you guys are here!

Cheers,

Boon Mee

[sabaijai]

Snowleopard, Richard etc.

What is a good rule to use when attempting to distinguish between May Thoo & May Han Aakaat?  Some texts make it difficult and the only way I've learned thus far is to recognize the size of the loop?

Cheers,

Boon Mee

Boonmee

There's no loop in a mai thoh. It's a stylised numeral '2'.

Compare

ต้น

and

ตัน

Granted, with some fonts - such as this one - they do look pretty similar at a quick glance, but most of the time they won't be used in the same environments (my examples are exceptions). With most fonts and certainly with cursive script they look very distinctive.

A strange thing about mai tho is that it looks a lot more like a European 2 than the corresponding Thai digit ๒ . Conversely, mai tri e.g. อ๊ does like more like the corresponding Thai digit ๓ than a European 3, though the difference between these two digits is chiefly a rotation. Reverting, mai chattawa looks a bit like a European 4 and nothing like the Thai digit ๔!

Historically, mai tho started out as a simple cross - presumably one groove for mai ek and two grooves for mai tho. (Mai tri and mai chattawa weren't yet needed.)

I've recently been trying to learn the Lanna script (tua mueang), which is also used, along with a reformed version, for Tai Lue, a Tai language chiefly spoken in China. In the proposal for inclusion in Unicode, mai tho 'sign of third tone' is given in box 92 (it's a vertical line and a diagonal line on its right almost joining at their base). Plain mai han aakaat is omitted(!), but when combined with mai tho, as in box 93, it's a parallel diagonal line. However, when I look at some Thai[http://www.pinpia.com/lannafont.htm]Lanna fonts[/url] - I think their provenance is given at http://se-ed.net/tua-mueng/, but I canot download from that site - the vertical line of mai tho is almost completely missing. At very large sizes (36 points and above) there is a tiny vertical projection at the base of the diagonal for mai tho, but otherwise mai tho and mai han-aakaat are indistinguishable!

I don't know if it's a coincidence, but in the handwriting of my wife, who comes from Chiangdao in Chaingmai province, mai tho and mai han aakaat are indistinguishable. It's not like some difficult letter pairs, where I can often identify a letter immediately.

I assume-- though I've never read anything to support the idea, it's just an educated guess--that the Thai tonemarks are based on Arabic, rather than Thai, numerals.

The names for the first three tonemarks derive directly from Pali/Sanskrit

(mai) ehk = eka = one

(mai) thoh = dvi (dvau in nomative case; do in Hindi) = two

(mai) tree = tri = three

(mai) jatawaa = catúr (catvaarah in nom.) = four

*note: the /j/ I use above, for jaw jaan, is pronounced the same as the /c/ in Sanskrit. It's also often transcribed as /ch/.

Lao uses only the first two tonemarks, ehk and thoh, for the vast majority of words.I assume Lanna does the same?

The Lanna script seems to be fairly close to Burmese. After I finished studying the Burmese alphabet a few years ago, I found I could read most of the Lanna temple signs in Chiang Mai. Some letters seemed more 'Thai', others more 'Burmese'.

[meadish_sweetball]

When you practice Thai handwriting, you may simplify between the two by making the mai thoo look like a slightly tilted arabic "2" in normal Western style with the upper curve open.

My Thai teacher did this to make it clearer for us students, and I find it makes much more sense than trying to emulate the "loopish" mai thoo suggested for example in the AUA textbooks.

[Richard W]

Lao uses only the first two tonemarks, ehk and thoh, for the vast majority of words.I assume Lanna does the same?

The Lanna script seems to be fairly close to Burmese. After I finished studying the Burmese alphabet a few years ago, I found I could read most of the Lanna temple signs in Chiang Mai. Some letters seemed more 'Thai', others more 'Burmese'.

It seems that all the Northern scripts with old tone marks make do with only two tone marks. (I've checked Lanna, New Tai Lue and Viet Thai(sp?) (used for Tai Dam amongst others). For live syllables, they should need three extra tone marks, but they only need them for initial /b/, /d/ and /?/ (glottal stop). New Tai Lue (which is a reform of the Lanna script) and Viet Thai have created new low consonants corresponding to these consonants, which are high consonants in these languages - these languages don't have any middle consonants. (Alternatively, you could say there's no difference between high and middle consonants.) (Confusingly, Viet Thai terminology is the opposite way round to Thai terminology). Thus Indic <p> has given rise to high <p>, high <b> and low <b> in New Tai Lue.

Even though the Lanna script is more closely related to Mon and Thai to Khmer, the tone marks seem to have been borrowed by one from the other. (I've seen a suggestion that the Sukhothai script borrowed them from an early Lanna script!)

When were mai tri and mai chattawa added to the Thai script?

[Richard W]

When were mai tri and mai chattawa added to the Thai script?

Should anyone be interested, I've got an answer to this question at Thai Tone Marks.

[Boon Mee]

When you practice Thai handwriting, you may simplify between the two by making the mai thoo look like a slightly tilted arabic "2" in normal Western style with the upper curve open.

My Thai teacher did this to make it clearer for us students, and I find it makes much more sense than trying to emulate the "loopish" mai thoo suggested for example in the AUA textbooks.

As a simple rule for newbies - is it safe to say that May Han Aakaat is "larger" than May Thoo? I'm working with AUA workbooks on my own.

Imagine over time I'll recognize/differentiate between them faster but 'am not at that stage where I know the different "environments" they naturally occur.

Cheers,

Boon Mee

p.s. good information on tone marks, Richard. This forum is terrific!

[Richard W]

As a simple rule for newbies - is it safe to say that May Han Aakaat is "larger" than May Thoo?  I'm working with AUA workbooks on my own.

No. It depends on the font / typeface. For example, mai tho is larger in Tahoma, but they are the same size in Arial. On the other hand, with small type, they are easier to tell apart in Arial than in Tahoma, for the shapes are more distinctive.

I don't know of any examples of mai han-aakaat being noticeable larger in print, but it is slightly longer in my handwriting.

Imagine over time I'll recognize/differentiate between them faster but 'am not at that stage where I know the different "environments" they naturally occur.

One environmental cue you will soon be able to use is that only mai han aakaat can occur with another vowel; less useful is that only mai han-aakaat can occur with a tone mark. Once you've identified one as mai tho, the other similar shape is mai han-aakaat. Two very common words that can be used to find mai tho in a piece of text are ให้ and ได้; ใหั and ไดั are impossible. (In fact, they're so impossible, I wasn't allowed to type them in directly!)

[sabaijai]

When were mai tri and mai chattawa added to the Thai script?

Should anyone be interested, I've got an answer to this question at Thai Tone Marks.

Interesting article. Following the citation, pleasantly surprised to see the article was written by Nanthana Danvivatana, who was a student at the Univ of Hawaii linguistics dept the same time I was, and who helped me with my research paper on the Thai passive voice. I'd like to know what happened to her, whether she's still in the US or back in Thailand.

[Richard W]

Following the citation, pleasantly surprised to see the article was written by Nanthana Danvivatana, who was a student at the Univ of Hawaii linguistics dept the same time I was, and who helped me with my research paper on the Thai passive voice. I'd like to know what happened to her, whether she's still in the US or back in Thailand.

Might she now be Nantana Ronakiat? It may be a coincidence - this Nantana doesn't mention Hawaii, but nor did you.

[sabaijai]

Following the citation, pleasantly surprised to see the article was written by Nanthana Danvivatana, who was a student at the Univ of Hawaii linguistics dept the same time I was, and who helped me with my research paper on the Thai passive voice. I'd like to know what happened to her, whether she's still in the US or back in Thailand.

Might she now be Nantana Ronakiat? It may be a coincidence - this Nantana doesn't mention Hawaii, but nor did you.

It's possible she changed her last name, but as I recall she was completing her linguistics PhD at Hawaii, under an East-West Center grant, so I doubt she would leave that out of her CV. I completely lost track of her around '85-86.

I didn't mention my studies in applied linguistics at UH in my Thai learning summary because I didn't study Thai formally there at all (although I lived & socialised with Thais in H'lulu so in fact did get plenty of continued exposure). My paper on the Thai passive voice was a foolish attempt to try to predict Thai errors in learning English passive voice. I fell into the classic CH (contrastive hypothesis -- a much-maligned hypothesis that is almost completely unpredictive of language acquisition orders) trap.

[sirima]

Snowleopard, Richard etc.

What is a good rule to use when attempting to distinguish between May Thoo & May Han Aakaat? Some texts make it difficult and the only way I've learned thus far is to recognize the size of the loop?

Cheers,

Boon Mee

[sirima]

Nantana Danwiwatana is currently Assoc.Prof.Nantana Ronakiat, a lecturer of Linguistics Department of Thammasat University, Bangkok, Thailand. She is my thesis advisor. She graduated from University of Edinburgh, PhD. in Linguistics.

[Johpa]

Rest assured that Thai tone marks are indeed Arabic numerals, shifted about ninety degrees, and that the Thai names for those numerals have what should be very recognizable Indo-European roots to even the most obtuse native English speakers.