Expats Posing As Us Residents For Banking/credit Purposes

[Jingthing]

As I have already established,

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...amp;hl=maintain

probably a majority of US expats are posing as US residents to their banks, brokerages, state motor vehicle departments, credit card companies, etc., to make thing easier to live abroad, or even possible.

This is clearly lying. This also clearly hurts nobody and is not theft.

How does this strike you, ethically speaking? Most of us were raised to believe that lying is always wrong. This seems to be a case where for many of us it almost necessary, so maybe not so wrong?

Hmmm ..............

Edited June 8, 2008 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

Only George Washington never told a lie. I think that little white lies - lies that don't hurt anyone - make life much easier for everyone.

[johna]

So what's wrong with lying to government or banks, they lie to us all the time.

"Sleep with a government servant they need the exercise"

[Ratsima]

Why would it be criminal or even simple lying to use a US mailing address for credit cards and banking as long as you don't claim that address as a residence address?

[grantbkk]

I do not see an issue here. I utilize an address in the US to facilitate my dealings with banks and the Department of Motor Vehicles. I have to pay US taxes on income even though I do not reside there. It is not unethical or unlawful to maintain the US address.

[PeaceBlondie]

I always thought that sleeping with a government employee was good exercise. Now, where were we?

Some of us were trained very well not to ever lie to anybody. The older we got (and the more the lies accumulated), we realized there were many shades of gray. There is more than one way to spell grey.

The credit card companies are not going to repossess our used stereos or refrigerators, whether we are in Columbus, Ohio or Colombo, Sri Lanka. They will assess interest and late penalties, cancel our credit card, give us a bad credit rating, etc., whether we are in Toledo, Ohio or Toledo, Spain. Very few of us have the kind of fiduciary relationship with the local bank that our old family physician did. Now it is mostly all electronic banking, with a few call centers in India, low-wage "bankers" who never get behind the counter of a real bank.

I do not need to lie to the US govt. My pensions, federal tax matters, VA dealings, insurance claims, etc. - all relate to living in Thailand.

Only when testifying in court do we have to tell all the truth.

Now, back to sleeing with govt. employees....

[Naam]

This is clearly lying. This also clearly hurts nobody and is not theft.

hel_l is waiting for you

[Prakanong]

This is clearly lying. This also clearly hurts nobody and is not theft.

hel_l is waiting for you

The Department of Homeland Security will get them and they will be renditioned - that will have jingthing in a really hissy fit

[Jingthing]

To be clear, I personally think us lying about this is totally reasonable and justifiable. However, on another thread, a user called this practice SLEAZY. So I thought a discussion about it might be germane. One possible wrinkle; I do think in some states when you renew your driver's license they make you sign a statement swearing the truth of your state residency. This implies there may possibly be serious legal consequences if found out as one of those dangerous escape from America characters (us). This is as good a time as any to ask if anyone here ever been caught up in this wrinkle ... and what happened.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Jingthing

[Naam]

This is clearly lying. This also clearly hurts nobody and is not theft.

hel_l is waiting for you

The Department of Homeland Security will get them and they will be renditioned - that will have jingthing in a really hissy fit

that means before héll Guantanamo is waiting

[Jingthing]

I suppose it was exceedingly silly of me to hope for a serious discussion on this topic.

[cluezo]

Only George Washington never told a lie. I think that little white lies - lies that don't hurt anyone - make life much easier for everyone.

And more fun!!

[Valjean]

My first thought on reading this was who gives a darn. I file my US taxes with my Thai address which seemed the important item to me. Otherwise I’m just trying to make my life simple. I did wonder if doing my banking overseas with a US residence address while wearing baggy shorts and having my maid bring me coffee was an especially heinous crime but there wasn’t anything in Wikipedia about this…

For the heck of it I went to Fidelity to read the fine print. Here is what they say on what is the difference between Legal and Mailing Address?

All accounts require a Legal Address of record at Fidelity as we are required by the USA PATRIOT Act to obtain this information in order to verify our customers. In some instances, a Mailing Address may also be added to the account that is different from the Legal Address. This situation occurs when a customer has separate mailing and residential addresses (for example, a P.O. box as mailing address).

Why can't I use a PO box for my legal/residential address?

For your protection, federal law requires that Fidelity verify every customer's identity by obtaining a legal address. Your legal address is your physical address, therefore PO boxes are not allowed. If you would like to have mail sent to a PO box, you can designate it as your mailing address.

It does make me wonder a little about a potential liability or risk. Especially elements of the Patriot Act. For instance now the IRS now has strict requirements to file Form TDF 90-22.1 on overseas bank accounts. The NYT has a recent article about this. As the various financial and government institutions get more and more interlinked, as things like the Patriot Act give the government more power to snoop into things it does perhaps open up some risk that what is a small white lie could come back to bite as we get lumped in with tax evaders and terrorist.

At Fidelity the only reason I did this is that there were issues getting an ATM card. I’m not sure if the mailing address had to be in the US to get the ATM card or the legal residence. Otherwise that one would work to have correct Legal/Residence address in Thailand and US Mailing address.

For my credit card the hassle I found was ordering online when my address was in Thailand. The address confirmation info on many sites is US-centric. I’d have to check to see if the Legal address or mailing address is used for confirmations.

There are the tricky issues of asking these questions without opening up a can of worms. But it has gotten me to think about this a little more seriously. Not the ethical issues (which to me are very, very small) but more about getting a letter from the IRS someday with a large fine imposed or a situation where I have an attorney or accountant costing a lot of money get me out of the fix.

If anyone has a competent legal or CPA opinion on this I’d be interested. I wouldn’t even mind sharing some expense to go get this if the info is generic. I hate to think about paying a lot for the legal opinion. A month ago I need some specialized review of some off-shore companies I’m setting up and the US attorney doing this was about $400 per hour. That ended up being $2000 to get a few questions cleared up – specifically to avoid any IRS issues. Now I’m not quite in the mood to top off his bank account so quick again.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Valjean

[Dustoff]

I suppose it was exceedingly silly of me to hope for a serious discussion on this topic.

Yeah, pretty much. (That's a lie. I lie about everything, even about lying)

I was raised to be totally honest and to withhold truth only when it can be detrimental to others (you know, the Bush doctrine) and I stand by that teaching to this day. Sometimes however, honesty can be tough to deal with, both for ourselves and others. I recall a wife of mine (long, long ago) asking, "Did you have sex with her?!" Sticking with my code of total honesty, I replied, "No, I did not." This of course was very disappointing for her as she seemed to need some excuse for being such a bitch.

I have lived here full-time for seven years but do maintain some US connections such as a bank account, VA and Social Security, a Hawaii drivers license, etc. but have never had to be dishonest in my dealings. My VA and SS is deposited in my American bank (the VA will not direct deposit to a bank in Thailand), the DMV in Hawaii mails my license renewals to my Thailand address, my bank mails my and my wife's debit cards to our Thailand address, the Internal Revenue Svc mails my forms to my Thailand address, the FAA mails anything related to my commercial license to my Thailand address, et al..

Admittedly Hawaii wants me back for every other driver's license renewal (10 years) but that is primarily to update the photograph (my current license has, in place of a picture, the statement, "Valid Without Photo")

Surely there are some ancient residency requirements for drivers licenses or, umm, something else but I would have a problem with having to establish residency in my own country other than for State-related issues; even then there is no way it would be 'sleazy' to dot some i's and cross some t's so that I can drive a car down to Florida to visit my own mother in my own country..

Honesty, for those employees stuck in the world of government rules and regulations, is an abstract concept which has nothing whatsoever to do with your character...

(Everything I just wrote, including this, is a lie...)

[Dustoff]

My first thought on reading this was who gives a darn.

Well, you certainly have no problem using obscene language, do you...?

And I find it disturbing that you know how to spell heinous.

And, speaking of opening a can of worms (as you did), you not only used the above 4-letter word and "heinuous crime" but "tax evaders" and "terrorist" - buzzwords which are sure to be picked up by the security scanners and..

Oh darn, I just made the same mistake...

Edited June 8, 2008 by Dustoff

[Huey]

I totally do. And its their fault. If they lobbied against those bastards on capitol hill who used "terrorists" as an excuse to enact the "patriot act" that makes banking internationally so much more difficult, they would have my money. As it stands I put just enough money in there that I need to buy tickets and other things online. They have the worst online banking that I have ever seen. No international wire transfers online. They want all kinds of BS documentation were is it from where is it going...F them, it's my money why am I a criminal until proven innocent?

Not like Emirates bank or BKME of Kuwait, I transfered a quarter mill in one shot out of the Emirates online in like 2 min with no questions asked. It took me 20 min to set up the account in their main office.

Try and do that in a American bank.

[rixalex]

So I thought a discussion about it might be germane.

Naam, you're Germane aren't you?

[Shotime]

I thought it was just being American. Always take advantage of the system. or, there's always an angle. I have a friend been dead 5 years, and he still gets a check every month. That's a joke. I really don't know anyone like that. I had a hard time with heinous, too. As far as moral, I haven't seen any discussion of karma thus far.

[Naam]

So I thought a discussion about it might be germane.

Naam, you're Germane aren't you?

that's correct. i am German, maintain two U.S. bank accounts (which i use frequently), hold a few U.S. credit cards (which i don't use) and never told those financial institutions (except the IRS) that i'm not living any more in the Greatest Nation on Earth™. alas, since Jingthing's posting i can't sleep in the night and worry 25 hours a day (25 hrs because i skip lunch break) that bad karma might catch up with me and that homeland security might send the marines to Thailand to take me to Guantanamo.

did i mention that these worries also cause erection problems and that my libido is rather low? how do i explain that to my wife when she returns from abroad end of this week?

[Naam]

As far as moral, I haven't seen any discussion of karma thus far.

see above! by the way... are you real?

[rixalex]

So I thought a discussion about it might be germane.

Naam, you're Germane aren't you?

that's correct. i am German

Could you be a germane German? Or perhaps a germane Jackson?

(don't worry - the doctors have already been sent for! )

[thaigene2]

Interesting question - put ethics aside for a second though. I keep not one, but two drivers' licences from my home country (different jurisdictions).

The reason I do this, like many others, is that it will make life so much easier if/when returning there to live. In most jurisdictions, you are supposed to either surender the licence upon leaving (moving to another state or wherever) or exchange it in another jurisdiction where you do have a (new) residence. The problem with that is that many foreign countries don't have reciprocal agreements to facilitiate this kind of exchange. To simply give up the 'old' licence can often mean that you would be required to take the driving test all over again if you ever returned.

HOWEVER - as I have since learned, if you try to use that Amerinca, Canadian, British licence etc when you are back in your country on holiday (e.g. renting a car and using that licence) your insurance could be nullified in an accident as the licence was not deemed to be valid.

Many people, including me, kept a US Dollar AMEX card too becuase it offered CDW when renting a car - a significant savings. However, AMEX changed the rules on US Dollars card holders who live outside of the USA. A recent change - we're no longer covered. I learned about this after a minor incident (vandalism to the rental car). Didn't cost much to fix so I had to pay out of pocket. I then cancelled my US Dollar card.

[NanLaew]

The US Patriot Act made me jump through more and more hoops when I was in the twilight years of my US 'residence'. That and the fingerprinting and photographing at arrival immigration every time, etc.. In the end I thought sod it, move back to Thailand. However, my main frustration was with banks, DL and tax agencies, etc., that I had been happily dealing with while legally employed and resident in the US in the 90's, when they started having problems with my non-resident and not-employed in the US status that followed. They always seem to suspect that I had acquired these accounts and licenses incorrectly if not illegally regardless of my showing proof that I acquired all these facilities including cars and property when I was under a different, totally legal visa status. Some seemed to think that these should have been repossessed, closed and/or relinquished since I was now just passing through and no longer living there (I still do business there).

I note with interest that HSBC's latest international advertising says that through using their services, you can transfer your credit rating in your old country to your chosen new homeland and avoid the hassles of having no credit history when you start a new life elsewhere on the planet.

I wonder how many expatriates do NOT want to avail themselves of that facility?

[Naam]

So I thought a discussion about it might be germane.

Naam, you're Germane aren't you?

that's correct. i am German

Could you be a germane German? Or perhaps a germane Jackson?

(don't worry - the doctors have already been sent for! )

i'm a german German. by the way, in my mother tongue the word "Germane" does exist. it denotes our ancestors in ancient "Germania".

tell the doctors not to treat you too rough!

[Naam]

The US Patriot Act made...

made us leave although we liked living in the U.S. very much.

[Naam]

I thought it was just being American. Always take advantage of the system. or, there's always an angle. I have a friend been dead 5 years, and he still gets a check every month. That's a joke. I really don't know anyone like that. I had a hard time with heinous, too. As far as moral, I haven't seen any discussion of karma thus far.

would you please be kind enough and explain that in a language we understand?

[Gary A]

Having a bogus US address would make life easier for me, BUT, I think it's wrong so I don't do it. Why should I allow banks and/or credit card companies make a liar out of me?

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

probably a majority of US expats are posing as US residents to their banks, brokerages, state motor vehicle departments, credit card companies, etc., to make thing easier to live abroad, or even possible.

This is clearly lying.

Your post reveals that you have no clue as to the legal standard for residency in the U.S. In the future, I sugest you exercise due diligence and research this before you accuse people of lying. An ex-pat is someone working abroad who intends to return to his home country. If you intend to have residence in the U.S. in the future, you are still a resident of the U.S., regardless of whether you are currently living abroad.

[PeaceBlondie]

I am surprised nobody has asked Naam if he has a huge, heinous, German heinie. My sisters taught me a naughty song from 1945, but I shall not repeat it. The USA Patriot Act signalled the obvious arrival of 1984 double-speak.

We do not have to tell the truth to the government, except that they have these sneaky laws.

[Naam]

I am surprised nobody has asked Naam if he has a huge, heinous, German heinie.

i confess that my heinie is of average size PB. please keep it a secret!