Step Daughter To Uk

[bangbuathongben]

Scouse, and whoever has good advice!

As you all know my wife had a fairly uncomplicated visa success a while ago. And we are all set to move back to England next week. I was wondering what does everyone know about getting my wife's daughter to the Uk? When she had her short interview I made sure she took her daughters birth certifacate which she never got asked to show. Although they did ask my wife if she would like to take her daughter, to which she replied "of course who wouldn't". The reason I did not apply for a visa for her straight away is complicated. Firstly the daughter lives with her father and I wanted to get settled into our own home before putting any stress on the kid. The daughter was due to go and stay with relatives in the States to further her education, but obviously would rather be with her mum in the Uk. The daughter is a really good kid and very mature for her age. I think she would have no problems settling into a local school.And of course we would both love to have her with us. So as soon as we are sorted in the Uk I will be looking into this. But what do I need to get sorted for a visa for her? And can I do it in the Uk or will I have to travel back to Bangkok to get this sorted?

Thanks in advance for any experiences or help....

Bang..........

[the scouser]

Ben,

First off, take a look at the immigration rules governing how children can join their parent(s) in the UK. Paragraph 301 is the one you're interested in.

Unfortunately, the child has no expectation of being able to automatically join a parent who has gone to live in the UK. As you will have read in the immigration rules, the parent seeking to take the child to the UK has to show that they have sole responsibility for the child's care and as your step-daughter is cared for by her father, she would be unlikely to fulfil this requirement.

Scouse.

[bangbuathongben]

Scouse,

Would this still apply if the father was willing to write a letter of consent allowing her to come live with her mother? He is a well payed lawyer in Bangkok and Kuala Lumpa, if this helps? As much as he doesnt want to see her go he would rather she had a education in the Uk....

Bang........

[the scouser]

Ben,

I can't advise you to break the rules. I would just ask you to concentrate on the sole responsibility issue and decide how that might be addressed. As things stand, it is unlikely that your step-daughter would currently qualify as your wife does not have sole responsibility for her care. The visa officer would ask why it's necessary for the child to go to the UK with her mother when it's her father who's been caring for her.

Scouse.

[bangbuathongben]

Well I dont think it would be a problem for her father to say that my wife had full responsibility for her. Will have to start getting the process rolling and see what happens...

Thanks

Bang..........

[the scouser]

Ben,

Sorry I was a bit sharp in my previous post, but my bloody niece has just discovered MSN messenger and is pestering me every 5 mins. She caught me just as I was about to write the previous response.

Anyway, there's a difference between the father giving consent for your step-daughter to travel and her being presented as having been cared for solely by your wife.

What you should bear in mind is, if your wife claims to have had sole responsibility for her daughter, the embassy will ask for evidence of this; a simple statement, generally, will not suffice.

The provisions of the immigration rules are there to allow for children not to be separated from the parent(s) who has/have cared for them in day-to-day terms. Unfortunately, the visa officer will not be swayed by the fact that it may be in your step-daughter's best interests to have an English education.

I have heard talk before of sole custody documents obtained from the amphur, but the hearsay suggests that some amphurs issue such documents and others don't.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[Richard W]

I have heard talk before of sole custody documents obtained from the amphur, but the hearsay suggests that some amphurs issue such documents and others don't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A court order transferring custody may also be insufficient. The clinching document would be your step-daughter's father's death certificate. This would be difficult to obtain in your circumstances.

The other alternative is to Surinder Singh it (unless this loophole has been blocked). If you go and work in another EU country, you can have your wife and her children with you, and after long enough together - with you exercising you Treaty of Rome rights for the free movement of labour - you will have the privileges of a Frenchman if you then return to the UK, i.e. your stepdaughter can join you. If the Scouser doesn't offer details, you can do some preliminary research by Googling for 'Singh' and 'Family reunion'. (The 'Surinder' part of the name tends not to be mentioned much nowadays.)

There has been talk of blocking this loophole - it's a directive rather than a plain Treaty of Rome right - and last I saw, some time ago now, immigration officers were under written instructions to disallow this right if deliberately acquired for the purpose of exercising it. I don't know if any such decision has yet been successfully appealed against.

You ought to have competent legal advice before Surinder Singhing it - I have no idea how one knows if one is getting it.

Richard.

[the scouser]

There has been talk of blocking this loophole - it's a directive rather than a plain Treaty of Rome right - and last I saw, some time ago now, immigration officers were under written instructions to disallow this right if deliberately acquired for the purpose of exercising it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whereas that would make sense, I'm not aware of any such instruction to immigration officers. I'll make some enquiries and revert later.

Scouse.

[GU22]

I have heard talk before of sole custody documents obtained from the amphur, but the hearsay suggests that some amphurs issue such documents and others don't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A court order transferring custody may also be insufficient. The clinching document would be your step-daughter's father's death certificate.

Obviously, if the father were dead then the procedure would be very simple, but a sole custody order from court or Ampur will suffice.

Some Ampurs will issue a sole custody document provided both parents attend the Ampur to request it and the person who will get the sole custody is the person currently caring for the child. This is unlikely, in this case as the child is currently being cared for by the father. A discreet envelope may help, though.

A court issued sole custody document will be a lengthy and difficult process. For starters the court will need to be convinced that the child will be better off with the mother. In my wife's case it took nearly two years to get the court to issue sole custody, and this was in a situation where the father had completely abandoned his children and did not contribute to their support.

Sorry, Bang, but I think this will be a long and uphill struggle.

Edited September 10, 2005 by GU22

[bangbuathongben]

Thanks for all the imput, but I am still unsure even after reading the Embassy's website what supporting documents I would need to show. This is in order for my wife to show she had full responsibility for her daughter. The father of her child has never been given custody or anything like that as the child sort of floats between the two as they live very close to each other, each helping the other out. So what would I need to obtain? Also when my wife was having her short interview, they did ask whether she would like to take her child, and where the child would be staying in LOS, so has my wife shot herself in the foot by saying she will be living with her father? This sounds more difficult than getting the wifes visa!!!

Bang..........

[mrbojangles]

Ben, i have no idea about this subject but is Adopting your wifes child an option? If so, would this make your case stronger?

[Thomas_Merton]

..

There has been talk of blocking this loophole - it's a directive rather than a plain Treaty of Rome right - and last I saw, some time ago now, immigration officers were under written instructions to disallow this right if deliberately acquired for the purpose of exercising it.  I don't know if any such decision has yet been successfully appealed against.

...

Richard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A couple of comments on this quote from my own experience, from an immigration (family) visa in November 2003 and it's extension via the Home office in June 2004 (we lived and worked in Denmark for at least 2 years).

We applied for a visa for my wife at the Copenhagen embassy. The Embassy staff advised us to seek an EU (as they called it) visa as this was automatic and cost nothing. We received this and travelled to the UK.

We applied for a permanent visa when this visa ran out, expecting to pay the £150+ pounds quoted on the Home Office website, only to receive a "permanent" (5-year) visa using EU rules and again costing nothing.

[bangbuathongben]

Ben, i have no idea about this subject but is Adopting your wifes child an option? If so, would this make your case stronger?

Unfortunatly I dont think this is a option......

The father would never agree to this!!

Bang......

[GU22]

Thanks for all the imput, but I am still unsure even after reading the Embassy's website what supporting documents I would need to show. This is in order for my wife to show she had full responsibility for her daughter.

She will need either sole custody papers issued by a court or Ampur, or the father's death certificate. Nothing else will do. You will also need to show that you can support and accommodate the child without recourse to public funds.

they did ask whether she would like to take her child, and where the child would be staying in LOS, so has my wife shot herself in the foot by saying she will be living with her father?

She obviously had to show what arrangements had been made to look after the child as she was not included in the original application. The ECO may well wonder what has changed since then, but if she has a sole custody document they will find it very difficult to justify a refusal. Provided you can show that you can support and accommodate the child, of course.

Adoption would not really help. The procedure is lengthy and you would need, yep sole custody papers or the father's death certificate!

[bangbuathongben]

The ECO may well wonder what has changed since then, but if she has a sole custody document they will find it very difficult to justify a refusal. Provided you can show that you can support and accommodate the child, of course.

The reason I did not apply for a visa for the child originaly was because I wanted to sort out accomidation for us all in the Uk before I started the process. I think we will have to sit down with the father and have a good long vhat!!!

Bang...........

[GU22]

The reason I did not apply for a visa for the child originaly was because I wanted to sort out accomidation for us all in the Uk before I started the process. I think we will have to sit down with the father and have a good long vhat!!!

Did she say this at the original interview?

UK law is framed as such to prevent one parent fleeing with a child to the UK against the will of the other parent.

Some may say that a letter of consent from the father will suffice, but I've been doing some research on Thailand-UK, where this subject has come up many times, and found this post (along with 319 others!)

We are going for "sole custody" as the embassy said the letter of consent would not suffice. It would have been a lot easier but they want "confirmation of sole custody and responsibility from the Amphur (District Office) with certified English translation"

However, it may be worth e-mailing the embassy to ask, as cases do tend to vary on an individual case by case basis.

[the scouser]

Ben,

Even if the father consents to your wife being granted sole custody of their daughter, this might not be sufficient to get a visa. The immigration rules are quite specific. They state, inter alia, that your wife should have had sole responsibility for the child's upbringing; i.e. not only at the time of the application, but for the time preceding that, too. I do believe that if the visa officer perceived the switch of custody as a means of getting the visa, it would be refused.

Scouse.

[bangbuathongben]

So the best advice would be for me to just hand in the application form and just "wing it". Although this is a costly process, and if it gets refused I will be no further in sorting this mess out! Think I will ask the father to take a look at the process..

Maybe I could stow her away in my suitcase, these thais are only small!

Bang..........

[GU22]

So the best advice would be for me to just hand in the application form and just "wing it".

NO!

Speak to the father. Get a letter from him confirming the previous flexible custody arrangement, that he agreed to look after the child while her mother settled in the UK and sorted out accommodation, and that he has no objections to her mother having custody. Get a sole custody document from the Ampur, this should be a straightforward procedure if the father agrees. Then apply.

Good luck.

[the scouser]

The only way the requirement to have had sole responsibility can be obviated is if it's for the welfare of the child; e.g. if the parent who has had sole responsibility develops a condition which renders them incapable of effectively taking care of their offspring.

Scouse.

[GU22]

With respect, Scouse, I think you may be wandering a little of track here. From what Bang has said the father does not, and never has had, sole responsibility.

The father of her child has never been given custody or anything like that as the child sort of floats between the two as they live very close to each other, each helping the other out.

So, Bang, would an accurate description of the arrangement be that they shared custody/responsibility until she went to the UK when, for obvious reasons, the father looked after the child? Also, that the only reason your wife did not apply for settlement for the child at the same time as herself was that she needed to come to the UK first to make sure suitable accommodation etc. was in place?

I stand by my previous post,

if she has a sole custody document they will find it very difficult to justify a refusal. Provided you can show that you can support and accommodate the child, of course.

The only stumbling block that I can see is getting the father to agree to all this.

[bangbuathongben]

So, Bang, would an accurate description of the arrangement be that they shared custody/responsibility until she went to the UK when, for obvious reasons, the father looked after the child? Also, that the only reason your wife did not apply for settlement for the child at the same time as herself was that she needed to come to the UK first to make sure suitable accommodation etc. was in place?

GU22, this is exactly the situation I am in. Sorry if I didn't explain my situation clearly.

The only stumbling block that I can see is getting the father to agree to all this.

And as for this, he has already said that he would like her to go to the Uk to further her education. And is well prepared to write a letter stating the above paragraph is true i.e he was taking tempory care of her well we sort out our accomodation in the Uk. So back to a previous post, what documentation is needed? Is it the same as I provided for my wife, as it is a settlement visa I will be applying for?

Bang.............

[the scouser]

Apologies for the misinterpretation. Here's some details about what you'll need to support the application.

Definitely get a letter from the father confirming that his taking care of the daughter was a temporary measure and that, in day-to-day terms, it is your wife who has had sole responsibility for the child's upbringing. Some people say you need to get a sole custody paper from the amphur. Whether you do this or not is your call. Strictly speaking, it is not required and it is only the visa section in Bangkok that I know ask for such documents.

Additionally provide a copy of your wife's passport and one of your step-daughter's birth certificate, too. You will also need to show that you are in a position to support the child in the UK, so, again, submit your bank statements, wage slips, and proof of your accommodation. Your step-daughter would be expected to have, if not a bedroom of her own, one shared with a child of the same sex. Furthermore, if either you or your wife sends any money to the father for the upkeep of the child, append the money transfer receipts to the application, as they help establish sole responsibility. Under no circumstances tell the visa officer, unless directly asked, that a primary factor in seeking the visa is to secure an English education for your step-daughter.

How old is your step-daughter? Generally speaking, a visa officer cannot rely upon the word of a child under the age of 14 and will wish to interview a parent. The visa officer may ask your step-daughter the odd question, but nothing substantive. Neither you nor your wife needs necessarily to be present, but your wife's ex would then have to accompany his daughter to the embassy.

That's about it.

Scouse.

[Richard W]

Ben, i have no idea about this subject but is Adopting your wifes child an option? If so, would this make your case stronger?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An adoption is to be ignored if it is believed to have been done for the purpose of getting round immigration law. Besides which, I believe private adoption is quite complicated and fraught with risks of being criminal, and the last I heard Thai adoptions were not recognised in the UK. I did explore this avenue myself, but it seemed to be a slow, complex process with little chance of achieving the ultimate aim.

Ben,

Even if the father consents to your wife being granted sole custody of their daughter, this might not be sufficient to get a visa. The immigration rules are quite specific. They state, inter alia, that your wife should have had sole responsibility for the child's upbringing; i.e. not only at the time of the application, but for the time preceding that, too. I do believe that if the visa officer perceived the switch of custody as a means of getting the visa, it would be refused.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where does this interpretation come from? Whereas it was my original, untrained interpretation, I have received the paid legal advice - from a part-time appeals adjudicator! - "No-one knows what 'has had sole responsibility' means."

A bit more on Surinder Singhing:

There has been talk of blocking this loophole - it's a directive rather than a plain Treaty of Rome right - and last I saw, some time ago now, immigration officers were under written instructions to disallow this right if deliberately acquired for the purpose of exercising it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whereas that would make sense, I'm not aware of any such instruction to immigration officers. I'll make some enquiries and revert later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The instruction has now been withdrawn. The relevant text is:

Following the ECJ case of Akrich, (ECJ Case C-109/01), it is not possible to look at the reasons why the EEA national and his family member left the UK. We cannot therefore refuse an application on the ground that someone had deliberately moved to another Member State in order to obtain the benefits of EC law on their return to the UK.

I found this at Surinder Singh Cases - Chapter 5 of the European Directorate Instructions. (Despite their name, they're issued by the UK Government.) Yes, there's a whole chapter (14pp) on the case law flowing from this judgement.

Edited September 11, 2005 by Richard W

[bangbuathongben]

How old is your step-daughter? Generally speaking, a visa officer cannot rely upon the word of a child under the age of 14 and will wish to interview a parent. The visa officer may ask your step-daughter the odd question, but nothing substantive. Neither you nor your wife needs necessarily to be present, but your wife's ex would then have to accompany his daughter to the embassy.

Thanks Scouse, GU22 and everyone else who have posted,

My step-daughter will be 13 by the time we apply for the visa, and have a sufficient living enviroment for her to come and stay with us comfortably. As for her father going to the interview, I think I will make the trip myself, as the missus has recently been through the process. So hopefully this shouldn't be too difficult to get sorted. Thanks for all the advice I hope it works!!!

Bang.........

Edited September 12, 2005 by bangbuathongben

[the scouser]

Where does this interpretation come from?  Whereas it was my original, untrained interpretation, I have received the paid legal advice - from a part-time appeals adjudicator! - "No-one knows what 'has had sole responsibility' means."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Richard,

Exactly my point. In the absence of any test case, the interpretation of that particular rule will depend upon the judgment of the individual visa officer. As it is phrased in the past tense, the implication is that the responsible parent should have been so not only now, but for some time. Depending upon the circumstances of the individual application, the visa officer may refuse the visa.

Here's the Home Office's guidance on what constitutes sole responsibility:-

....usually for a substantial period of time, been the chief person exercising parental responsibility. For such an assertion to be accepted, it must be shown that he has had, and still has, the ultimate responsibility for the major decisions relating to the child's upbringing, and provides the child with the majority of the financial and emotional support he requires. It must also be shown that he has had and continues to have care and control of the child.

Scouse.

[GU22]

Some people say you need to get a sole custody paper from the amphur. Whether you do this or not is your call. Strictly speaking, it is not required and it is only the visa section in Bangkok that I know ask for such documents.

As I quoted before, from someone who has actually done this,

We are going for "sole custody" as the embassy said the letter of consent would not suffice. It would have been a lot easier but they want "confirmation of sole custody and responsibility from the Amphur (District Office) with certified English translation"