I Can't Figure Out "gay Lifestyle"

[PeaceBlondie]

After being actively homosexual from age 42 to 63, I still don't get this "Gay Lifestyle" thing. I wear my thick hair long, and almost all the over-40 gay men I see are bald or nearly so. I cannot remember all the words to "I Will Survive" even though I have memorized countless other song lyrics that amaze older gay men. Like today, waiting for the train, I thought, "..sitting in the railway station, thinking of my destination, homeward bound." But I have only seen 2 or 3 gay movies, which is why I haven't posted on that thread.

I'm neither butch nor femme, and I don't know the correct phrases. Even "Are you a friend of Dorothy?" sounds like what members of AA ask one another. I don't speak soprano or falsetto, have never worn female clothing. And I have six children from a 230-year marriage. Oops, I mean 20-years.

Is there no hope for me? I also don't do much alcohol, no tobacco, no drugs. Is that all just barbaric? I can hardly even pronounce "...dahhhlinggg."

Or, are there countless others like me, who simply don't fit the stereotypes, most of which are absurd caricatures or simply false?

[Guest endure]

We're all over the place, dahhhling, but because we don't fit the stereotype no-one realises we're here

[Pie Boy]

After being actively homosexual from age 42 to 63, I still don't get this "Gay Lifestyle" thing.  I wear my thick hair long, and almost all the over-40 gay men I see are bald or nearly so.  I cannot remember all the words to "I Will Survive" even though I have memorized countless other song lyrics that amaze older gay men.  Like today, waiting for the train, I thought, "..sitting in the railway station, thinking of my destination, homeward bound."  But I have only seen 2 or 3 gay movies, which is why I haven't posted on that thread.

I'm neither butch nor femme, and I don't know the correct phrases.  Even "Are you a friend of Dorothy?" sounds like what members of AA ask one another.  I don't speak soprano or falsetto, have never worn female clothing.  And I have six children from a 230-year marriage.  Oops, I mean 20-years.

Is there no hope for me?  I also don't do much alcohol, no tobacco, no drugs.  Is that all just barbaric?  I can hardly even pronounce "...dahhhlinggg."

Or, are there countless others like me, who simply don't fit the stereotypes, most of which are absurd caricatures or simply false?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your description sounds just like my dad, do you think he's gay?

(sorry I know)

[mijan24]

After being actively homosexual from age 42 to 63, I still don't get this "Gay Lifestyle" thing.  I wear my thick hair long, and almost all the over-40 gay men I see are bald or nearly so.  I cannot remember all the words to "I Will Survive" even though I have memorized countless other song lyrics that amaze older gay men.  Like today, waiting for the train, I thought, "..sitting in the railway station, thinking of my destination, homeward bound."  But I have only seen 2 or 3 gay movies, which is why I haven't posted on that thread.

I'm neither butch nor femme, and I don't know the correct phrases.  Even "Are you a friend of Dorothy?" sounds like what members of AA ask one another.  I don't speak soprano or falsetto, have never worn female clothing.  And I have six children from a 230-year marriage.  Oops, I mean 20-years.

Is there no hope for me?  I also don't do much alcohol, no tobacco, no drugs.  Is that all just barbaric?  I can hardly even pronounce "...dahhhlinggg."

Or, are there countless others like me, who simply don't fit the stereotypes, most of which are absurd caricatures or simply false?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PeaceBlondie - I am not gay but do believe in everyone to their own - Your post is very soul bearing - unfortunately life was not meant to be easy - you have my respect for such an honest post. happy to have a beer or orange juice with you one day.

Regards

Mijan24

[Sansai Sam]

Funny....we all knew! (just kidding Peaceblondie)

I am from San Francisco and New York before that and I find the stereotypical gay image has been fading from view regularly over the years. Early on I think it was a form of defiance and protest but as gays become more and more accepted in society the extremes are disappearing as people move into the mainstream. I am actually a bit offended when people tell me "I didn't think you were gay". Being gay is a very small part of my life. It is certainly not the main focus just as being "straight" is not the main focus of others. Some people have nothing else in their life but their gayness, I have so very many more things as I think do you. The only difference between me and a straight man is who we sleep with....other than that I have no interest in stereotypical "gay lifestyle". I am very happy being a man and have absolutely no desire to be anything else. I have been through two traditional marriages and raised a daughter quite well if I may say so myself. As a result I feel I am very qualified and comfortable in my choice having given both sides a fair shot. Don't bemoan the fact that you don't have the hollywood gay factors. You have nothing to prove. Enjoy you life on your terms!!

[The_Moog]

"I Will Survive"

At first I was afraid

I was petrified

Kept thinking I could never live

without you by my side

But then I spent so many nights

thinking how you did me wrong

And I grew strong

And I learned how to get along

and so you're back

from outer space

I just walked in to find you here

with that sad look upon your face

I should have changed that stupid lock

I should have made you leave your key

If I had known for just one second

you'd be back to bother me

Go on now go walk out the door

just turn around now

'cause you're not welcome anymore

weren't you the one who tried to hurt me with goodbye

Did you think I'd crumble

Did you think I'd lay down and die

Oh no, not I

I will survive

Oh as long as i know how to love

I know I will stay alive

I've got all my life to live

I've got all my love to give

and I'll survive

I will survive (hey-hey)

It took all the strength I had

not to fall apart

kept trying hard to mend

the pieces of my broken heart

and I spent oh so many nights

just feeling sorry for myself

I used to cry

But now I hold my head up high

and you see me

somebody new

I'm not that chained up little person

still in love with you

and so you felt like dropping in

and just expect me to be free

and now I'm saving all my loving

for someone who's loving me

Go on now go walk out the door

just turn around now

'cause you're not welcome anymore

weren't you the one who tried to hurt me with goodbye

Did you think I'd crumble

Did you think I'd lay down and die

Oh no, not I

I will survive

Oh as long as i know how to love

I know I will stay alive

I've got all my life to live

I've got all my love to give

and I'll survive

I will survive

[Pie Boy]

Peaceblondie, apologies for my smart arse post.I was simply trying to highlight that gay men and hetrosexual men come in all shape in sizes sometimes very different sometimes very similar, we have many variedneeds, likes and dislikes etc.Ultimatley our lives are not defined by how we fit in to the pre-conceived image society has created for us but how we live our lives - true to oneself and safe in the knowledge that we have tried to live every day being the best person we can.

Enjoy life - you will survive.

[The_Moog]

It's Raining Men

Hi - Hi! We're your Weather Girls - Ah-huh -

And have we got news for you - You better listen!

Get ready, all you lonely girls

and leave those umbrellas at home. - Alright! -

Humidity is rising - Barometer's getting low

According to all sources, the street's the place to go

Cause tonight for the first time

Just about half-past ten

For the first time in history

It's gonna start raining men.

It's Raining Men! Hallelujah! - It's Raining Men! Amen!

I'm gonna go out to run and let myself get

Absolutely soaking wet!

It's Raining Men! Hallelujah!

It's Raining Men! Every Specimen!

Tall, blonde, dark and lean

Rough and tough and strong and mean

God bless Mother Nature, she's a single woman too

She took off to heaven and she did what she had to do

She taught every angel to rearrange the sky

So that each and every woman could find her perfect guy

It's Raining Men! Hallelujah! - It's Raining Men! Amen!

It's Raining Men! Hallelujah!

It's Raining Men! Ame---------nnnn!

I feel stormy weather / Moving in about to begin

Hear the thunder / Don't you lose your head

Rip off the roof and stay in bed

God bless Mother Nature, she's a single woman too

She took off to heaven and she did what she had to do

She taught every angel to rearrange the sky

So that each and every woman could find her perfect guy

It's Raining Men! Yeah!

Humidity is rising - Barometer's getting low

According to all sources, the street's the place to go

Cause tonight for the first time

Just about half-past ten

For the first time in history

It's gonna start raining men.

It's Raining Men! Hallelujah! - It's Raining Men! Amen!

It's Raining Men! Hallelujah! - It's Raining Men!

[The_Moog]

Macho Man

Body...wanna feel my body?

Body...such a thrill my body

Body...wanna touch my body?

Body...it's too much my body

Check it out my body body.

Don't you doubt my body body.

talkin' bout my body body

check it out my body

Every man wants to be a macho macho man

to have the kind of body always in demand

Jogging in the mornings go man go

works out in the health spa muscles glow

You can best believe that he's a macho man

ready to get down with, anyone he can

Hey! Hey! Hey, hey, hey!

Macho, macho man (macho man)

I've got to be, a macho man

Macho, macho man

I've got to be a macho! Ow....

Macho, macho man

I've got to be, a macho man

Macho, macho man (yeah, yeah)

I've got to be a macho!

Body, its so hot, my body,

Body, love to pop my body,

Body, love to please my body,

Body, don't you tease my body,

Body, you'll adore my body,

Body, come explore my body,

Body, made by God, my body,

Body, it's so good, my body

You can tell a macho, he has a funky walk

his western shirts and leather, always look so boss

Funky with his body, he's a king

call him Mister Eagle, dig his chains

You can best believe that, he's a macho man

likes to be the leader, he never dresses grand

Hey! Hey! Hey, hey, hey!

Macho, macho man

I've got to be, a macho man

Macho, macho man

I've got to be a macho! (all right)

Macho, macho man (yeah, yeah)

I've got to be, a macho man

Macho, macho man

I've got to be a macho! All Right!

Ugh! Macho..baby!

Body, body, body wanna feel my body,

Body, body, body gonna thrill my body,

Body, body, body don'tcha stop my body,

Body, body, body it's so hot my body,

Every man ought to be a macho macho man,

To live a life of freedom, machos make a stand,

Have their own life style and ideals,

Possess the strength and confidence, life's a steal,

You can best believe that he's a macho man

He's a special person in anybody's land.

Hey! Hey! Hey, hey, hey!

Macho, macho man (macho man)

I've got to be, a macho man

Macho, macho man

I've got to be a macho! (dig the hair on my chest)

Macho, macho man (see my big thick mustache)

I've got to be, a macho man

Macho, macho man

I've got to be a macho! (Dig broad shoulders)

Macho, macho man (dig my muscles!)

I've got to be, a macho man

Macho, macho man

I've got to be a macho!

Macho, macho man

I've got to be, a macho man

Macho, macho man

I've got to be a macho! HEY!

[Ijustwannateach]

I think that in the recent past (60s-90s) when this stereotypical queer identity was developing, gays and homosexuality itself were very repressed. An interest in certain things (disco, fashion, divas) was almost a secret sign to other gays that one personally was also gay, and so it was considered de rigeur for making connections and establishing identity. Now, with greater acceptance for our sexuality, there is more room for pluralism.

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

PeaceBlondie: You have given voice to one of my "pet peeves".

I don't know what a "gay lifstyle" is?

When I left my wife of ten years, having had one daughter, nothing changed in my life other than who I slept with. I remain, now 30 years later, the same person I was when I was married to a woman, but I am now essentially "married" to a man.

My next door neighbor is a straight man with a Thai wife and no one refers to his "straight lifestyle". The two men who are, to all intents and purposes, maried and living next door, live an identical "straight lifestyle" but because we are gay, the "gay lifestyle" reference was used by the neighbor. I guess I should be insulted, but I am not, as I do have a better eye for decor than they do!.

The "metro-sexual lifestyle" is much talked of. Is it a "gay lifestyle" lived by a straight man?. Does a "queer eye" have anything to do with it? I don't think anyone who has been in a gay truck driver's double wide mobile home with velevet wall hangings, as I have, would say so.

I like the post that says the sterotypical image of gays is disappearing and it is a good thing. One thing young gay people really need is positive role models. If the Thai katoy would fade and positive gay role models emerge, young gay Thais would be far better off and not feel compelled to "act gay", as there really isn't any such thing, except through caricatures of femininity.

Bravo for the post.

[The_Moog]

An interest in certain things (disco, fashion, divas) was almost a secret sign to other gay

I don't agree - something as flamboyant as that could hardly be described as a 'secret' sign.

eg: David Bowie dressing up as Ziggy Stardust and proclaiming his bisexuality.

My interpretation is that the 70s explosion in camp culture is related to the legalization of homosexuality (in UK at least) in the late 60s.

The mid-late sixties themselves were the 'summer-of-love' time for heterosexuals - .... gay culture had to make up for lost time, which it did in the seventies.

[PeaceBlondie]

To everybody who has responded, I say, "Thanks, y'all." I now realize, thanks to Moog posting the lyrics, that "I Will Survive" doesn't seem to have a gay theme. Apparently, just the title of the song became a rallying cry for the oppressed. And now, especially if we live in Thailand, we're not so much oppressed.

Besides, I can't dance.

[Guest endure]

I like the post that says the sterotypical image of gays is disappearing and it is a good thing.  One thing young gay people really need is positive role models.  If the Thai katoy would fade and positive gay role models emerge, young gay Thais would be far better off and not feel compelled to "act gay", as there really isn't any such thing, except through caricatures of femininity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're falling into your own trap here by stereotyping katoeys as some sort of lifestyle choice. Any man who feels compelled to take drugs to grow breasts and have his bits sliced off is no more doing it through 'choice' than you are 'choosing' to be gay.

[Guest endure]

I like the post that says the sterotypical image of gays is disappearing and it is a good thing.  One thing young gay people really need is positive role models.  If the Thai katoy would fade and positive gay role models emerge, young gay Thais would be far better off and not feel compelled to "act gay", as there really isn't any such thing, except through caricatures of femininity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Second thought:

Are you not trying to overlay your western ideas of how 'gaydom' (for want of a better word) ought to operate on the Thais? It seems to me they have a much better handle on it than the west does. Nobody has ever been put in prison for being gay in Thailand.

[ProThaiExpat]

Endure: My use of the word Katoy was in the context of effimancy, not gender alteration. I don't watch much Thai television, so if there are "out" gay men there who are not effeminate, then I have learned something.

Yes, my point of view is western and includes gays who are into sports, masculinity and "normal acting", not gay men who act like females.

[Guest endure]

But katoeys (by and large) aren't gay men who act like females. They're men who belive that they ought to be women. From what I've read (although I'm no expert) most katoeys actually want gender reassignment rather than just acting effeminate for the sake of it. It's a position that seems to be more common in the Far East than in the west. I've seen them in Singapore and in Malaysia.

There was a TV programme here in the UK a few years ago about two guys from Chiang Mai who went to work in Pattaya to save up to have the op. There were interviews with katoeys from Alcazar and Simons who were at all stages of the transition from male to female and most of them had had a very rough time of it from friends and family but they were all determined to go through with it.

As far as the Thai perspective on men who act like females - I was at a party with a straight Thai friend of mine a couple of years ago when some farang gays turned up, dressed in drag and camping it up. When I sniggered at them my friend got quite angry with me, telling me that they were having sanuk and it was no business of mine to belittle the way they chose to enjoy themselves. Another reason to love Thailand

[Ijustwannateach]

^Agree with above that most kathoeys are not really the same group that "gay men" usually put themselves in. Adding to your list, most of them don't particularly want to date gay men- they want STRAIGHT men- and many of them find 'em.

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

Thanks Moog for all the Lyrics to my FAVORITE songs!!

Now I know what I've been singing wrong all this time...!

ProThaiExpat - The mental image of the gay truck driver's mobile home with the Velvet wall-hangings... well, I don't know what to say!

ChrisP

Mod

PS The other FAVE is "Jump" - Pointer Sisters.

(Sorry, always been a Disco Queen...!)

[ProThaiExpat]

endure: I have done my homework, and with the help of my Thai, checked the dicttionary definition of katoey; it defines the word as the English equivalent of hermaphrodite.

The dictionary lists many Thai words for the variations in he-she identity, including effiminancy and transvestites.

I sit corrected and will henceforth use the English word "nelly" to express effeminancy in men, since I don't speak Thai.

[ChrisP]

^

My friend in San Diego.. (who's not exactly butch) decribes his little queeny outbursts as "having a nelly break".....

ChrisP

[PeaceBlondie]

endure:  I have done my homework, and with the help of my Thai, checked the dicttionary definition of katoey; it defines the word as the English equivalent of hermaphrodite.

The dictionary lists many Thai words for the variations in he-she identity, including effiminancy and transvestites.

I sit corrected and will henceforth use the English word "nelly" to express effeminancy in men, since I don't speak Thai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But is that dictionary correctly understanding the standard English definition of hermaphrodite? That is a person born with BOTH a penis and a vagina, as in the Greek god and goddess, Hermes and Aphrodite. The man who wants a transgender operation has his penis removed, and a vagina created. A true hermaphrodite already has both.

Does the Thai dictionary you are using translate hermaphrodite from English to Thai? Please check two good English-English dictionaries.

[The_Moog]

Hey pop-pickers, here's a Wall-of-Sound anthem that could out-spector Phil Spector himself.

GO WEST

Together, we will go our way, together we will leave some day.

Together, your hand in my hand, together we will make the plans.

Together, we will fly so high, together tell our friends goodbye.

Together, we will start life new, together this is what well do.

Go west, life is peaceful there.

Go west, lots of open air.

Go west to begin life new.

Go west, this is what well do.

Go west, sun in winter time.

Go west, we will do just fine.

Go west, where the skies are blue .

Go west, this and more well do.

Together, we will love the beach, together we will learn and teach.

Together, change our pace of life, together we will work and strive.

I love you, I know you love me; I want you happy and carefree.

So thats why I have no protest when you say you want to go west.

Go west, life is peaceful there.

Go west, lots of open air.

Go west to begin life new.

Go west, this is what well do .

Go west, sun in winter time .

Go west, we will do just fine.

Go west, where the skies are blue.

Go west, this and more well do.

I know that there are many ways to live there in the sun or shade.

Together we will find a place to settle down and live with the space

without the busy pace back east, the hustling, rustling of the feet,

I know Im ready to leave too, so this is what were going to do,

Go west, life is peaceful there.

Go west, lots of open air.

Go west, to begin life new.

Go west, this is what well do.

Go west, sun in winter time.

Go west, we will do just fine.

Go west where the skies are blue.

Go west, this and more well do .

Go west...(repeat & fade)

- Jacques Morali, Henri Belolo & Victor Willis

[toptuan]

Phooey on your Khatoey attempt to peg this "gender". If you try to explain the Thai concepts of masculinity to femininity (or "straightness" to "gayness") within the male sector of our species, using normal English terminology, it's a losing battle. Easier just to use the Thai terms, and then define the characteristics. Added to this mix are the 6-7 levels of friendships defined by Thai, which can all be part of male 2 male sexual/non-sexual relationships. Now starting to get the confusing picture?

Anyway, this is the conclusion I came to after reading one of the best anthropological studies of Thai concepts of sex: "The Meanings of Sex: University Students in Northeast Thailand," by Pamela DaGrossa

DaGrossa's doctor's dissertation of 2003 (University of Hawaii) is a scholarly and entertaining dissertation which delves into these murky waters. After reading it, I stopped trying to use western terminology to define these concepts--it's just too inaccurate and presumptious to do so. She adopts the Thai words throughout her thesis, and it all seems to make much more sense.

Her opening paragraph on a key section:

"SEXUAL IDENTITY

"In Thailand, sexual behavior is almost irrelevant to a discussion of sexual identity.A "homosexual" (identity) is distinguished from a "heterosexual" (identity) in Thailand not by specific sexual behaviors, but by sex role, sexual preference, and lifestyle. Heterosexual men (phuchaay theดe, literally, "real men") may engage in same-sex behavior and remain straight. This is facilitated by a certain amount of ambiguity in physical and emotional affection demonstrated in same-sex friendship. Same-sex friendships sometimes include a physical element and even infatuation."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DeGrossa's dissertation used to be on-line at

http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/aboutus/dagrossa/W...on/default.html although at this moment the link appears broken (I hope only temporarily). Try it later. If that doesn't work, DaGrossa might be willing to email you a copy ([email protected]). As a last resort, I copied some of the key chapters to use in one of my university classes, and would be happy to email a copy to you, if you'd like. Email me at [email protected] if you'd like some of these key excerpts.

It will help sort out a lot of these issues in this thread while at the same time giving you an appreciation of how complicated Thai concepts of "sexuality" and "gayness" are, compared to the simplistic Western view.

[alaina]

Or, are there countless others like me, who simply don't fit the stereotypes, most of which are absurd caricatures or simply false?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think there are many people, not just gay who feel pressured to fit into a stereotype. Identity politics are rampant in almost any minority group.

While some people genuinely do fit the stereotypes naturally, it's unfair to tell every gay person they must have the same identifiable characteristics in the name of, "visibility" or whatever agenda is popular that week. It's usually someone else's insecurity about being different that puts upon those less easily identified.

Plus, if you meet someone who doesn't know and turns out to have anti-gay biases, you can wait through any hateful comments and give them enough rope to hang themselves. Quite fun to watch people squirm when they realize.