Visa For Italy, Uk/thai Nationals

[lordsux]

Hi All,

After 3 years in Thailand I have decided its time to leave for Italy, hopefully with my Thai girlfriend whom I have been with for 2 years.

I am a British passport holder but have had no affiliation with the country for 19 years, I lived and worked in Denmark for 15 years and then came to Thailand. Here I met my girlfriend and we started a small business together (non registered). After a series of unfortunate events we have decided to close shop.

My financial situation is not that good at the moment, but I have a familly member that will sponsor us until we get on our feet, the familly member is also a UK citizen but has permanent residency in Italy and owns his own property in Italy (where we eventually will be living). He works out of England so bank statements, payslips ect. will come from there.

What would the best way to get my girfriend to Italy, I have previously dealt with the Italian embassy in Bangkok...not very helpful at all. Would me marrying my girlfriend improve the chance of a visa? Which visa would the best to go for?

I have searched the forum but cant find anything relating directly to our circumstances.

Any help would be highly appreciated.

[GuestHouse]

Lordsux,

My Thai wife and I moved to Italy from the UK in July of this year from the UK.

The circumstances of our move are that I was moving to Italy on an assignment from my employers.

European law stipulates that no impediment shall be placed in the way of EU Citizens (and there dependents) moving around the EU for WORK. As an EU Citizen you are entitled to move to Italy for work and take your dependents with you.

I (not my employers) wrote a letter to the Italian Embassy explaining that I was moving to Italy for work and that I, respectfully ask the Italian Embassy to issue my wife with a Visa (exact wording below).

My wife was issued a FREE 1 year Schengen Visa and instructed to report to the Police for registration within 8 days of arrival in Italy.

We reported to the police station where both my wife and I registered for residence. My registration was simply sign here. Her registration was full finger/palm print and photograph. A slip of paper was stapled in our passports and three months later we received the permanent residence “PERMESSO DI SOGGIORNO PER L’INTERESSATTO”.

Important Points to Note:

Prior to registering with the police for our “Permisso Di Soggiorno” I obtained my ‘Codice Fiscali” - Tax Code. This number is far more than just a tax code, it is the key to everything, renting property, getting a mobile phone.. everything. It is better that you have your Codice Fiscali before you go register for your ‘Permisso Di Soggiorno’.

The “Permisso Di Soggiorno” is a prerequisite for your wife being able to apply for a work permit. You don’t need a work permit because you are an EU Citizen, but you do need a Permisso Di Soggiorno and a Codice Fiscali.

Very Very Important Point

Once your wife has her “Permisso Di Soggiorno” she can apply for visas to other countries from Italy. Without it she would have to return to Thailand!!

----------------

I’ve attached the format of the letter I wrote below, you would need to modify the text to cover the points – essentially that you are EU Citizen moving to Italy for work, that you want your non EU wife to join you and that you have made provision for her travel costs, living, medical expenses etc. Don’t forget to add a copy of your own passport.

Form of Letter.

Visa Clearance Officer

The Italian Embassy

………

Dear Sirs,

Re: Application for Visa (Name) – Thai Passport No.

I have recently been asked to take an assignment on behalf of my employers in Rome.

I respectfully request that your approval of a visa for my wife (Full Name), that she can join me on my assignment.

You will gather from the documentation supportive to her application that my employers have agreed to include my wife within my contract of assignment and that she is therefore provided with all transport, living and medical costs under the terms of my employment.

Yours Sincerely

(Your Full Name)

(Date)

(Your Full Name – UK Passport Number 12345678, Copy Attached)

[GuestHouse]

Oh and if your wife is a 'looker' be prepared for huge amounts of guys hitting on her.

[Crossy]

Guesthouse is spot on.

If you marry your lady, you can get a FREE "EU Family Permit" that will get her into ANY EU country (not just Schengen signatories) EXCEPT the UK (you being a Brit.).

Enjoy Italy, it's a great country and it's where I met my (Thai) wife.

DC

EDIT As an aside, once you've got your 'permesso' from the aptly named Questura you can apply for UK visitor visas in Rome, much less hassle, no interviews blah blah

Edited November 17, 2005 by Crossy

[the scouser]

Just to add to what Guesthouse and Crossy have written, should you and your wife subsequently wish to settle in the UK, having lived in Italy for however long, your wife may then qualify for a family permit for the UK. This is because once a Brit has established him/herself in another EU/EEA country, he/she then becomes an EEA national for the purposes of immigration law and can benefit from the less stringent rules when applying for spouses to live in the UK.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[lordsux]

Thanks for all the great info.

So to take my girfriend to Italy, I marry her first, then apply for the EU Familly permit here in Thailand?

Do I have to go to Italy and obtain my Permisso Di Soggiorno and Codice Fiscali first or is that something that can be done on our arrival to Italy?

What documentation will be required at the embassy from the both of us. What amount do I have to show that we will be able to support ourselves. I can obtain a letter from a future employer stating that I will have work soon after arrival in Italy.

I have many questions so if someone has a link to a site that explains the requirements for the EU Familly permit in full it would be appreciated.

[the scouser]

Yes, you would need to be married before applying for the family permit at the Italian embassy in Bangkok. Once in Italy, then you and your wife would register with the Italian authorities.

Here's a link to the family permit rules, but please note that these relate to the UK, not Italy. The rules are the same, but interpretation might slightly differ.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[lordsux]

Got married on the 7th

My wife has taken my surname so we have to sort out a new passport which we will do tomorrow. Then the fun bit starts with the Italian embassy.

Called them today to make an appointment, was told that I have to call again tomorrow as the receptionist didnt know what an EU Family Permit was and which documentation I will need to take along with me.

Getting a bit nervous now thinking about what the hel_l we can do if she gets a refusal for the visa.

Will keep you updated with how things go.

Edited December 12, 2005 by lordsux

[lordsux]

Well, after calling the Italian Embassy information line to make an appointment which is now obligatory(9.-min+vat) and talking to 4 different people I have been informed that my wife will need medical insurance covering the duration of her stay which will be 1 year.

The embassy was helpful by giving me 7 company names and telephone numbers over the phone, but none of these offer policies for more than 6 months.

They are now emailing me the full list of (17) insurance companies that the embassy accepts, hopefuly one of these issues 1 year policies.

Has anyone been in a similar situation with the Italian embassy?

I also need to show flight reservations, they dont have to be fully paid up bookings just reservations. Anyone know of an airline where I can make a reservation without having to pay anything up front. It would be crazy to pay money for a ticket, even a deposit and then the visa application gets refused for some reason.

Starting to think that staying in Thailand would be a lot less hassle :/

Also, what happens when after 1 year when the EU Family permit runs out, does it have to be renewed in Thailand or can it be extended in Italy?

Edited December 13, 2005 by lordsux

[lordsux]

Here is the list of insurance companies accepted by the Italian embassy.

1.Allianz C.P.General Insurance tel.0-2638-9000

2.Bupa Health Insurance tel.0-2234-7755,0-2234-7680-87

3.Bangkok Insurance Public Company Ltd.,tel.0-2677- 3777,0-2285-8888

4.Mondial Assistance(thailand) tel.0-2305-8512

5.The New hampshire Insurance tel.0-2649-1035-6

7.Royal and Sun Alliance Insurance(thailand) tel.0-2207-0266-85

8.Aviva Insurance tel.0-2318-8318,0-2319-1199

9.ACE Insurance tel.0-2611-4040

10.CHUBB Insurance tel.0-2231-2640,0-2231-2652

11.Thai Health Insurance tel.0-2642-3100

12.Navakij Insurance tel.0-2636-7900

13.Patra Insurance tel.0-2290-3333

14.Chaopraya Insurance tel.0-2661-3355

15.LMG Pacific Health tel.0-2631-1582

16.Thipaya Insurance tel.0-2239-2230

After spending the whole day on the net/phone and getting to the point of giving up CHUBB Insurance came through with a 1 year policy with 3 different options 11'700.-, 12'000.- and 15'700.- baht. See the attached file for details.

I hope this can be a help to someone so they dont have to go through what I have today. Now all I need is the flight reservation, a few beers and a mia noi

[lordsux]

Visa rejected!!!!

Even though I stated when making the appointment that both my wife and I would like to speak to someone at the embassy I was not allowed in with her which didnt exactly make things easier!

After an hour of back and forth she was eventually told that becuase I am not yet an Italian resident that she could only get a tourist visa for no more than 90 days duration, not exactly the news we wanted to hear.

We are a bit miffed by all this, I was under the impression that we had good chances of getting the visa, I did my homework and read the rules (British website) and cannot recall reading anything stating that one has to have residency in the country for which the application is being made beforehand.

Is this just another case of the Italian Embassy being awkward?

Im thinking of flying to Italy to process my residency then coming back to Thailand to re-apply, but something tells me that then there will be another problem obtaining the permit.

Before doing this I would like to know if anyone knows whether I could take my wife to Italy on the tourist visa, obtain my/our residency and then apply in Italy for the EU Familly Permit? Or does this have to be done in Thailand?

Any input or suggestions would be appreciated.

[the scouser]

It does seem that the Italians have their own interpretation of the rules, although when Guesthouse applied, he wasn't yet resident in Italy. Perhaps your relative in Italy can enquire locally if your wife can enter Italy on a visit visa and then both of you secure your residency once there.

The other option is to go the legal route, arguing in court that you are being denied the ability to exercise your treaty rights, but that's an expensive way to go.

Scouse.

[vinny]

Perhaps the person conducting your wife's interview at the Italian Embassy was not familiar with EEA family permit rules. EEA family permits are not very commonly asked for. For example, in 2004-2005, the British Embassy in Bangkok received 43,511 visa applications. Of these, only 61 were for EEA family permits. See UKvisas Global Statistics 2004-05.

I would get in touch with someone senior at the Italian Embassy, such as Mr. Gianluca Greco, Counsellor, or Ms. Sabina Santarossa, First Secretary, to see if they can review your case.

[vinny]

Italian Embassy Diplomatic personnel can be found at: Directory and Office Hours

[lordsux]

Thanks for the advice, im currently in the process of finding out whether my wife can obtain residency whilst in Italy on the tourist visa.

If I obtain my residency within the 3 months we are there together, then I would imagine that an application could be made at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Italy. This is me just guessing and wishful thinking. I have emailed them but am yet to recieve a reply.

[vinny]

Schengen visas may be useful for you. In particular, Right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States

Rereading Guesthouse's comments, his wife was first given a Schengen visa:

My wife was issued a FREE 1 year Schengen Visa and instructed to report to the Police for registration within 8 days of arrival in Italy.

We reported to the police station where both my wife and I registered for residence. My registration was simply sign here. Her registration was full finger/palm print and photograph. A slip of paper was stapled in our passports and three months later we received the permanent residence “PERMESSO DI SOGGIORNO PER L’INTERESSATTO”.

Edited December 20, 2005 by vinny

[the scouser]

Schengen visas may be useful for you. In particular, Right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States

Rereading Guesthouse's comments, his wife was first given a Schengen visa:

My wife was issued a FREE 1 year Schengen Visa and instructed to report to the Police for registration within 8 days of arrival in Italy.

We reported to the police station where both my wife and I registered for residence. My registration was simply sign here. Her registration was full finger/palm print and photograph. A slip of paper was stapled in our passports and three months later we received the permanent residence “PERMESSO DI SOGGIORNO PER L’INTERESSATTO”.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe that that's what Lordsux's wife applied for, yet was refused.

Scouse.

[vinny]

After an hour of back and forth she was eventually told that becuase I am not yet an Italian resident that she could only get a tourist visa for no more than 90 days duration, not exactly the news we wanted to hear.

Isn't a Schengen visa equivalent to a tourist visa? Guesthouse's wife got a 1 year Schengen visa while Lordsux's wife was offered a 90 days tourist visa.

[the scouser]

If I recall correctly from Guesthouse's relevant post, his wife applied for and received free the Italian (Schengen) equivalent of a family permit, based on him being British and about to start work in Italy. His wife was entitled to stay in Italy for one year during which time she should register with the Italian local authorities which, as I understood it, is a formality. She would then be able to remain in Italy for as long as Guesthouse is there and remains her husband.

Lordsux's missus, on the other hand, appears to have been offered, at best, a visit visa of 90 days' validity for which I presume she has to pay, and at the end of which she would have to leave. Unless, of course, she is able, once in Italy, to convert the visit visa into a family permit-type authority to remain.

Don't quote me on this one, but I think all entry clearances for Schengen countries are endorsed "Schengen" irrespective of the purpose for which they're issued.

Scouse.

[vinny]

Thanks scouser.

You are quite right. Entry clearances for Schengen countries are endorsed "Schengen" irrespective of the purpose for which they're issued. Looking at the Schengen visa application form, there are indeed many types of visa:

Airport transit; Transit; Short stay; Long stay; Individual; Collective.

There are also many purposes:

Tourism; Business; Visit to Family or Friends; Cultural/Sports; Official; Medical reasons; Other (please specify).

Perhaps Guesthouse can enlighten us as to what type and purpose his wife's Italian (Schengen) visa had.

[lordsux]

Thanks for the links, the second one is especially good.

(Quote)

Right of residence for more than six months

The right of residence for more than six months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:

* either be engaged in economic activity (on an employed or self-employed basis);

* or have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. The Member States may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;

* or be following vocational training as a student;

* or be a family member of a Union citizen who falls into one of the above categories.

(End quote)

My wife falls into point 2 and 4.

After another 30 minutes on the Italian Embassys *cough* information hotline I managed to get a phone number to someone actually in the embassy as the hotline assistant admitted that she did not know anything about the rules and regulations for a EEA/EU Family Permit.

I call the number and try explaining politely the situation once again, but the woman I spoke to doesnt really want to listen and instead after every sentence I speak tells me to call the information line, despite the fact that I told her from the off that the staff at the hotline were unable to help me. She then starts muttering that she has many calls waiting and hangs up. Very frustrating indeed!!!

We have a new appointment for Tuesday, if noone wants to listen about the EU/EEA Family Permit as before then we have to take the 90 day tourist visa and see what we can do once we are in Italy.

The other option would be to apply for visa for Denmark where I do have residency, then travel to Italy, which as far as I can gather is possible but would mean that we would have to travel to Denmark every 90 days.

The last option would be for me to get a job in Thailand and we stay here, but thats not really a credible option as I know full well how difficult it is to find decent paying employment here.

Edited December 21, 2005 by lordsux

[the scouser]

If you have no joy with the Italians, then it may be worth your wife's while applying for a family permit for Denmark from where, as you suggest, you can travel to Italy. Once in Italy, you can then try to convert the Danish family permit in to an Italian one. I would suggest that they would have a difficult time refusing it when the Danes had already seen fit to issue an identical entry clearance.

Scouse.

[vinny]

Good advice from Scouse regarding Denmark.

Good luck on Tuesday.

As Souse pointed out, the "purpose of travel" should be "ACCOMPANYING FAMILY MEMBER of a EU or European Economic Area citizen family member" and not "tourism". The reason for visit falls under "FAMILY: accompanying family member" on the Italian Minsistry of Foreign Affairs' own webpage: Do you need a visa?

[lordsux]

Thanks Vinny,

I did try to explain to the embassy what was written on their own website but they wouldnt budge an inch, still saying that I need Italian residency before I can apply for the EEA/EU Family Permit.

I will let you know how I get on tomorrow.

[lordsux]

Just back from the embassy, granted a free 3 month tourist visa no problems.

Now I must find out what we can do about getting the EEA Permit whilst in Italy. I have never before experienced such rude and unhelpful people employed in a public office before.

I will keep you informed how things work out.

[giruz]

Just back from the embassy, granted a free 3 month tourist visa no problems.

Now I must find out what we can do about getting the EEA Permit whilst in Italy. I have never before experienced such rude and unhelpful people employed in a public office before.

I will keep you informed how things work out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello,

I'm Italian and my gf is thai. We currently live in Australia and I don't have much experience with the visa offices in Italy.

Anyway,

I can tell you that:

1) Thailand is not considered as friend for Italy (Don't ask me why, I don't know. Moreover the embassy can refuse a VISA without any reason (new rules against terrorism!).

2) I followed a visa hassle for a Ukranian friend, and I can confirm that obtaining a visa is a real pain. You have to pass thru million of inefficient idiot bureaucrats. Don’t expect to obtain the visa in few weeks and as I know you can apply for a family visa in the country of residence (i.e. Thailand but I hope for you that I’m wrong).

Good luck

Ps: I really envy the Brits, Dutch and the other developed countries…I cannot bring my gf as fiancée/partner in Italy because we don’t have a fiancé/partner visa (only wife)..and we are just 25 and 24 …so the weeding for us weeding is a synonymous of nightmare!

[GuestHouse]

Sorry I've not been joining this converstation these last days, I've been up noth house building.

I am surprised that Lordsux's wife has been given a 'tourist visa' and not a 'family permit', though I suspect the reason may be he does not yet have work in Italy - When my wife applied we were resident in the UK but my employment in Italy was confirmed.

The point at issue is 'the reason for going to Italy is to WORK' this automatically gives the spouse of an EU member the right to a family permit.

What you need to be careful of is ensuring your wife does not have to return to Thailand to convert the visa once you have secured your work. If she is going to have to return to Thailand then it may be worth delaying her journey until you find work and then getting her to apply for the full family permit.

I would be inclined to write to the Italian Embassy and get a written answer to why she can't have a family permit and what happens when you find work - is she going have to reaply back in Thailand.

It seems to me that someone at the Italian embassy doesn't know the rules.

----

To reitterate. My wife received a one year schengen visa and a family permit.

Both my wife's and my own permissio di sergiono and codice fiscale where issued in Italy when we arrived.

[lordsux]

Picked up the visa yesterday and have a quick question to ask.

The visa states that it is valid from the 26.02.06 - 24.08.06 and is multi entry. It also states that it is a 90 day visa for tourism.

So, as it is multi entry does this mean that just before the first 90 days are used it would be possible to leave Italy for example to France and then return to Italy and get a further 90 days?

[the scouser]

Unfortunately not. Your wife will be expected to leave Italy on or before 24 August. However, by that time you will hopefully have sorted out her family permit and she won't have to leave.

Scouse.

[vinny]

Scouse, does this mean if she initially enters on 23 August, then she can only stay one day?