Schengen Visa For Two Weeks In Spain

[ldma]

I've read a few bits and pieces on here about this and have already downloaded the forms and am now thoroughly confused.

My wife and 1 year old daughter with be travelling on separate Thai passports. We will be staying at my mum's house in Spain, but we are financially independant, so therefore not considering her as a host as defined in the blurb at

http://www.embesp.or.th/consular/CONSULAR/HTML/sch_v.html

so given the lack of hotel reservation will my mother need to provide any supporting documentation?

Also is this correct that we'll need to book flights first?

Any thoughts on this predicament prior to calling them on the number I just found on another thread would be most helpful.

[vinny]

Your mother will be your host in terms of accommodation. Any supporting evidence regarding the accommodation from your mother would be helpful. The webpage does suggest producing a round trip ticket, but a confirmed booking should be sufficient.

By the way, what nationality are you? It may be easier if you are an EU citizen. See also II. Requirements to apply for a visa to join a family member who is Spanish, a national of the European Union, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway.

[samran]

And if you are spanish, you should be able to get your daughter a spanish passport too, negating the need for you to get a visa for her too.

[ldma]

I'm British...I've considered the British passport option but my wife is unsure how the whole stamp out on a Thai passport stamp in on a brit passport stampback into Thailand on the Thai passport works or whether there will be any problems with it, so for expediency will be using her Thai passport for now.

Also my mum isn't exactly minted would that count against the applicatiuon?

[GU22]

my mum isn't exactly minted would that count against the applicatiuon?

No, she is merely accommodating you. As long as the accommodation is ok, her financial status is irrelevant because you are paying the costs of the trip.

Also, tell your wife not to worry about dual nationality. Both the UK and Thailand allow their citizens to hold dual nationality. The

whole stamp out on a Thai passport stamp in on a brit passport stampback into Thailand on the Thai passport

process is very simple, and certainly a lot easier than having to apply for a Schengen visa every time you want to visit your mum in Spain, or visit any other European country.

Also, if she doesn't take up British citizenship when qualified then when her current Thai passport expires she will either have to always carry her new passport and the old one with the ILR stamp in it whenever she leaves and re-enters the UK or pay £150 to transfer the stamp to her new Thai passport. If she has a British passport as well this will be unnecessary.

[vinny]

If your wife and child has dual UK/Thai nationalities, they should get both UK/Thai passports. With a UK passport, there is no need to apply for Schengen visas. Instead, they can:

1. Present the Thai passport at Thai Immigration when entering and leaving Thailand.

2. Present the UK passport at Spanish Immigration when entering and leaving Spain.

3. If required, present both Thai/UK passports when checking in at the airline counter.

If they do not hold British passports, then as family members of a British citizen, they can take advantage of the European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC. Obtaining Schengen visas for them should be simple and free. They don't need to fill in the questions marked with a "*". See also Directive on the right to reside freely in the EU.

[samran]

I'm British...I've considered the British passport option but my wife is unsure how the whole stamp out on a Thai passport stamp in on a brit passport stampback into Thailand on the Thai passport works or whether there will be any problems with it, so for expediency will be using her Thai passport for now.

I do the passport swapsy thing all the time, exactly how Vinny explains it. Been doing it for years and I've never run into a problem. Many, many members of this site have dual national children, so what your wife is unsure of is actually well worn and totally safe ground.

Many Thai's still think that dual nationality is a problem. In fact, Thailand hasn't had an issue with it since the early 90's, but word hasn't really spread for some reason.

I personally have Thai & Australian nationailty.

My Daughter has Thai, Australian & Kiwi nationaity

And I have cousins with with Thai, Australian & UK nationality

For your daughter at least, getting thr Brit passport for the EU portion of her trip will actually be the most expidient thing.

[ldma]

Many thanks for your replies so far. I'm certainly going to apply for a British passport for my daughter, as reccommended.

So, if I understand this Schengen visa thing correctly, most of the supporting documents are unneccessary if the applicant is related (by marriage or otherwise) to an EU citizen. It seems that even most of the application form does not require filling in if it's as my wife. So, I'm guessing that all I'll need is our marriage cert and other proof of ID.

Will I still need evidence of flight bookings and so forth as the application for states that I need not even state when we intend arriving or departing?

Edited July 3, 2006 by ldma

[the scouser]

So, if I understand this Schengen visa thing correctly, most of the supporting documents are unneccessary if the applicant is related (by marriage or otherwise) to an EU citizen. It seems that even most of the application form does not require filling in if it's as my wife. So, I'm guessing that all I'll need is our marriage cert and other proof of ID.

Spot on, although be prepared for a potential barney with the Spanish embassy who might try to insist that you pay for your wife's visa. Make sure that you have an English translation of your marriage certificate notarised by the Thai MFA and you might also require proof of medical insurance for your trip. You will need to demonstrate that you are able to financially support your wife whilst in Spain. However, you don't need to provide evidence of pre-booked travel.

Scouse.

[ldma]

re: the barney with the Spanish Embassy.

Will this be due to merely trying it on for some extra cash or do they have a right to insist on the visa being paid for....is there some EU directive I can wave in their face, and if so is there another EU directive they might wave back in mine?

So purchase insurence (upto 30k Euros) and bring some bank statements and translations of marriage certs along. Sorted!

Thanks Scouser.

[vinny]

It's in Article 5(2) of the EU Directive 2004/38/EC.

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

Scouse, ILRs may be obtained after 5 years' residence in the UK under Article 16. What is the general status of family members of EU, in particular, UK, citizens holding an ILR? Are they also exempted from the visa requirement?

Edited July 4, 2006 by vinny

[the scouser]

Vinny,

The relevant issue, irrespective of the status of the individual, is their passport. If that particular nationality requires a visa to visit another EU country, then, even if an individual is married to a Brit and holds ILR, a visa should still be sought.

I say "should" because, in theory, the individual cannot be denied their rights as derived from their EU spouse. Therefore, if they were to materialise in another EU country without a visa, they should not be refused entry for that reason alone. However, I wouldn't like to try it!

The Schengen countries might have an arrangement which accords foreign residents the same status in all member countries, but I'll have to look that one up.

Scouse.

[vinny]

Scouse, in Article 5(2) that I quoted above,

For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

However, the residence card may be superseded by the ILR. If family members of EU citizens cannot continue to use their ILR in place of the residence card for the visa exemption then it would imply that the ILR confer less rights than the residence card in relation to the visa exemption! Moreover, if they can continue to use the ILR in place of the residence card then this should imply that family members of EU citizens, including family members of UK citizens, with ILR are also exempted from the visa requirements.

[the scouser]

Vinny,

The non-EU spouse of an EU national doesn't need a visa to enter another EU country providing that the EU principal is exercising one of the prescribed treaty rights in the other country. However, someone in such a situation, who is otherwise a visa national, does require what the British government chooses to call a family permit. This is a form of entry clearance, but is not legally classed as a visa and the terms of the directive are therefore met.

Where the couple intends a visit to another EU country, the non-EU party (if a visa national) does require a visa because a visit does not constitute one of the treaty rights. However, there is recognition that the EU principal could elect to avail his/herself of their rights at any time during the visit and the spouse's "visit visa" is therefore issued free and, certainly in the UK, could be converted to residence status in-country at no charge.

So, to use my ILR-holding wife as an example, if we were to decide to go and work in Germany, she would not require a visa, but she would need to apply for their equivalent of the family permit prior to arrival. Should we visit Germany, I would not be exercising any treaty rights, so my wife would need a visa which happens to be issued free of charge because of her marriage to an EU national and in recognition that I might change my mind and, for example, work there.

As an aside, the only benefits which I can see of seeking ILR when the spouse of an EU national are:-

1. To assist in qualification for naturalisation as a Brit. cit;

2. To protect against having to leave the UK if the EU principal leaves;

3. For any offspring to be automatically British.

Scouse.

[the scouser]

re: the barney with the Spanish Embassy.

Will this be due to merely trying it on for some extra cash or do they have a right to insist on the visa being paid for....is there some EU directive I can wave in their face, and if so is there another EU directive they might wave back in mine?

In my experience, difficulties have arisen by the, for example, Spanish authorities interpreting the legislation literally. They place bureaucratic hurdles in the way of your wife getting a free visa just because they don't like the idea of free visas.

Scouse.

[vinny]

So, to use my ILR-holding wife as an example, if we were to decide to go and work in Germany, she would not require a visa, but she would need to apply for their equivalent of the family permit prior to arrival. Should we visit Germany, I would not be exercising any treaty rights, so my wife would need a visa which happens to be issued free of charge because of her marriage to an EU national and in recognition that I might change my mind and, for example, work there.

Scouse, in the Directive on the right to reside freely in the EU, they gave the following example:

6. Examples of added value of directive 2004/38/ec facilitating daily life of EU citizens and their family members

DIrective 2004/38/EC makes travelling easier for family members who previously had to have an entry visa

No more visas for visits to the United Kingdom or any other Member State that does not yet participate in Schengen when the family members who do not hold nationality of a Member State have a residence card.

Angelo (24), an Italian studying biophysics in the Czech Republic, and his Russian wife Svetlana (23) are planning to visit their friends in Glasgow for two weeks in summer. When they called the UK embassy in Prague to arrange for a visa, they were surprised to learn that the new EU directive on free movement exempted Svetlana from the visa requirement as she holds a Czech residence card.

Shouldn't your wife, holding an ILR, also benefit similarly when she visits Europe with you, as in the above example? You would both be exercising your treaty rights under Article 6.

Article 6

Right of residence for up to three months

1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

[the scouser]

Vinny,

I've had a butcher's at the legislation as it pertains to the UK. In relation to the matter we're discussing, it states:-

A person who is not an EEA national must be admitted to the United Kingdom if he is a family member of an EEA national, a family member who has retained the right of residence or a person with a permanent right of residence under regulation 15 and produces on arrival—

(a) a valid passport; and

b ) an EEA family permit, a residence card or a permanent residence card.

Immigration (EEA) Regs 2006 - section 11(2)

This upholds your contention that non-EEA family members who hold a residence card are not required to obtain prior entry clearance. The one aspect that remains to be resolved is whether other EEA countries would class an ILR vignette as a residence card, and I'm unaware of the answer to that one. However, Mrs Scouse and I are to visit Germany again in the New Year and I shall certainly contact the German embassy in order to establish what's what.

Scouse.

[the scouser]

Vinny,

I was about to telephone the German embassy to enquire whether, in their opinion, my wife could enter Germany without a visa as the holder of ILR, when I thought I'd have a more detailed look at the directive and associated legislation.

You cite article 5(2):

Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

I think we agree that without a residence card, the Thai wife of Brit. cit. will require an entry clearance to enter another EU country. Regulation 539/2001 lists Thailand as part of the common visa list and, although I haven't checked, Thais will probably require visas, anyway, under German national law.

It is therefore a question of what constitutes a residence permit. Article 10 states:

1. The right of residence of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be evidenced by the issuing of a document called «Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen» no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application. A certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued immediately.

2. For the residence card to be issued, Member States shall require presentation of the following documents:

(a) a valid passport;

( a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;

© the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or joining;

(d) in cases falling under points © and (d) of Article 2(2), documentary evidence that the conditions laid down therein are met;

(e) in cases falling under Article 3(2)(a), a document issued by the relevant authority in the country of origin or country from which they are arriving certifying that they are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen, or proof of the existence of serious health grounds which strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;

(f) in cases falling under Article 3(2)(, proof of the existence of a durable relationship with the Union citizen.

Article 11(1) then states:

The residence card provided for by Article 10(1) shall be valid for five years from the date of issue or for the envisaged period of residence of the Union citizen, if this period is less than five years.

These provisions relate to those foreign nationals who have entered, for example, the UK as the spouse of an EEA citizen. As my wife entered the UK as the spouse of a British citizen (i.e. under the provisions of the immigration rules, not the directive) she does not qualify for a residence permit under article 10 and is therefore not exempted from the visa requirement. Indeed, it is noteworthy that in the example you quoted, the Italian husband and his wife were exercising their rights in a 3rd country. The inference is that had the hypothetical couple been in Italy, the wife would still require entry clearance to visit the UK as she would not then have an article 10 residence permit.

You also cited article 6:

Right of residence for up to three months

1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

I interpret this article as pertaining to the right to live in the member country for up to 3 months without any further formality, as distinct from the right to enter, which is governed by article 5.

Scouse.

PS: That's an hour's work at £150.00 per hour....

[samran]

PS: That's an hour's work at £150.00 per hour....

Scouse, for your advice, it would be cheap at twice the price.

[the scouser]

Scouse, for your advice, it would be cheap at twice the price.

You smooth-talker, Samran. The cheque's in the post.

Scouse.

[vinny]

Thanks Scouse, for taking the time and trouble. I still wonder what would happen in the case of family members subsequently obtaining ILR or NTL under the EU regulations. These are no longer Residence permits as defined in Article 10. Will they still be acceptable for the visa exemption? If they are, how will the Germans know under which route they were obtained, especially for holders with new passports? Will the Germans care? I would be interested in the German Embassy's interpretation too, if you get the chance to ask them.

Under current German visa regulations, Thai ordinary passport holders are required to obtain visas. However, I believe that holders of diplomatic or official or service/special passports may have an exemption. I also remember that Thai ordinary passport holders did not require German visas prior to the EU's open borders policy.

Edited July 9, 2006 by vinny

[vinny]

See also REGULATION (EC) No 562/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 15 March 2006 establishing a Community Code on the rules governing the movement of persons across borders (Schengen Borders Code)

In particular,

Article 2(15)( b )

Article 5(1)( b )

Although "the United Kingdom is therefore not taking part in its adoption and is not bound by it or subject to its application", see (27), the Schengen countries are bound by it. Does this mean that ILR holders may exempted from the Schengen visa requirements from 13 October 2006 after all?

[ldma]

Ok, a quick update on this topic. My wife finally got aropund to calling the Spanish Embassy. After 5 attempts where they didn't even pick up the phone she spoke to a very rude Thai person, who told her that in no uncertain terms there were no exemptions in the Schenegn visa process for Thai citizens no matter who they were related to.

My wife was mid-way through her seecond question when the phone was slammed down on her. She called again and was told to call back because "everyone is too busy dealing with visa applications to answer your questions", what information she did get was that she had to get insurance though a certain company, but she would have to read the notice outside the embassy. My wife told her that she was down here in Songkhla and couldn't get up to read it easily, and was told the name quickly and again had the phone put down on her. Disgusting in my view!

She's now understandable sick of having to deal with these people, so my question is, can the Schengen visa be obtained from another country's embassy and still be valid to enter Spain.

If so, which is the best Embassy to do thiss...ie it actually abides by EU laws and does it withiut too much documentation or worries.

[ldma]

Sorry to reply to my own post, but I just called up myself, and spoke to somebody Spanish. While he was equally unhelpful over what documents the relative or dependants of an EU citizen must provide I did establish that for them to accept a marriage certificate it mut be one registered with the British embassy. They said they would also accept the british birth certificate of my daughter. He just kept saying though that I'd have to come in person with my documents, and was not at all sympathetic that we live 1000km away.

[the scouser]

See also REGULATION (EC) No 562/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 15 March 2006 establishing a Community Code on the rules governing the movement of persons across borders (Schengen Borders Code)

In particular,

Article 2(15)( b )

Article 5(1)( b )

Although "the United Kingdom is therefore not taking part in its adoption and is not bound by it or subject to its application", see (27), the Schengen countries are bound by it. Does this mean that ILR holders may exempted from the Schengen visa requirements from 13 October 2006 after all?

Hi Vinny,

My personal interpretation is that clause 27 rules out any benefit being derived by the holders of a UK residence permit by the stipulation that the UK is neither bound nor subject to the provisions of the regulation.

....can the Schengen visa be obtained from another country's embassy and still be valid to enter Spain.

ldma,

Yes, but your wife would then have to enter the Schengen area through the country from whose embassy the visa is obtained.

Scouse.

[ldma]

Thanks Scouser. When I spoke to this Spanish guy he conceded that the visa could be free but would not concede that other documentary evidence or non-disclosure of certain application form questions was ok for family members of EU citizens. What exactly should I be expecting from them here? They don't seem to like answering questions over the phone...that was most of the gist of the conversation.

Edited July 27, 2006 by ldma

[the scouser]

ldma,

What you should be expecting is a free visa for your wife upon establishing that:

1. You are a citizen of an EEA country other than Spain, and;

2. Your wife is your dependant, and;

3. Neither you nor your wife will be a financial burden upon the Spanish state.

From what you've written, it's the Spaniards playing silly buggers (again). As an aside, why is it that the Northern European countries generally play ball, but the Latins always try to have people over?

The embassy's insistance that your marriage is lodged with the British embassy is not a requirement of the directive which Vinny quoted: it is another manifestation of a bureaucratic hurdle, the purpose of which is to persuade your wife that it will be easier to apply for a "normal" visa for which she'll have to pay.

Your marriage in Thailand, if registered with the amphur, is legal and recognised in both the UK and Spain without having to be recorded at the British embassy. The Spanish will know this, but insist upon it being recorded as they will be aware that this costs more than a visit visa.

There are three ways you can play it:

1. Fight your corner, and go in there waving a copy of the directive under their noses;

2. Think, "Sod it", and pay for a visit visa;

3. Apply to a more reasonable embassy and enter Schengenland through that country.

All the best,

Scouse.