95 Petrol

[teej]

I know we've kicked around this topic before, but I don't think we ever came up with a definitive answer... Is it or is it not true that regular 95 will not be available at the pumps come 2007?

[barryofthailand]

This is hard to believe as Toyota just came out with a new engine on their new altis that now takes 95, so if 95 was going to disapear as everyone has heard I really don't think a major auto manufacture in thailand would be coming out with new motors that has to use 95 where before used 91.

Barry

[Tywais]

This is hard to believe as Toyota just came out with a new engine on their new altis that now takes 95, so if 95 was going to disapear as everyone has heard I really don't think a major auto manufacture in thailand would be coming out with new motors that has to use 95 where before used 91.

Barry

I saw that too and was surprised. First that the smaller engine uses 95 and the larger uses 91 and that they use 95 at all. Another poster mentioned this and said he was informed he can use 95 gasahol. If that is true then the 95 phase out will not effect toyota.

[rylo85m]

Just curious? If they phase out Regular 95 Octaine, what will people do with classic cars, high performance cars Like ferraris, Lamborginis run on here? surley not 95 Gasohol?

Im curious because im thinking of Buying a Mitsubish evo7, and im almost sure that it wont run on Gasohol and 91 Octaine

[Tywais]

Just curious? If they phase out Regular 95 Octaine, what will people do with classic cars, high performance cars Like ferraris, Lamborginis run on here? surley not 95 Gasohol?

Im curious because im thinking of Buying a Mitsubish evo7, and im almost sure that it wont run on Gasohol and 91 Octaine

The expensive way would be to buy 'octane boosters' or additives and add to 91, but if you have the above probably cost not an issue.

[george]

News just in:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=83880

[Plus]

According to other reports, there NO sufficient supply of ethanol yet, and many factories are not yet operational. Then there's a question of market price on agricultural products converted to ethanol. And the subsidy, too.

All in all, ready or not, Suvarnabhumi is there, ethanol isn't.

[teej]

hmm... so basically no real word either way? (if Plus is correct)

corkscrew, what are you gonna do with your Mercs if they stop selling 95petrol?

If and when they do this, I'm gonna have to sell off some cars and buy some oil burners instead.

[monty]

Headlines today in the Nation!

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/09/19...es_30014012.php

Seems like they'll go through with it...

Luckily I harly use petrol, since I run on LPG. Just a bit worried on longer trips where there are no LPG stations available...

My car is a 24 year old volvo, running one of the early Bosch electronic fuel injection systems (LH 2.2). It would definately get wrecked by gasohol, and the car does not run well on 91...

[indothai]

There's going to be a lot of pissed off rich people.

[Camelot]

My 95 octane-drinking, but 91- and gasohol-challenged, Subaru Impreza hopes the change of government will also mean a change of policy or at least a 'freeze' while the impending Jan 1 ban is reviewed and a coherent long-term energy strategy devised. So does its owner who doesn't want, and can't afford, a new car.

There were a lot of vested interests involved in the rush into ethanol who, fortunately, are no longer in power. Think PTT privatisation, the former energy minister (ex PTT MD) and political cronies of certain sugar barons, along with several other now-deposed household names. Energy conservation had nothing to do with it.

Gasohol would cost more money for less energy and its introduction should have been very gradually phased in over a decade to avoid immobilising or destroying and reducing the secondhand value to near zero of many cars and motorbikes currently on Thailand's roads.

It was never a realistic short-term fix. There aren't even sufficient facilities in the country to produce it yet, which means expensive imports and more fat subsidies.

Sure, I've a vested interest too in maintaining the status quo, I admit it. Unlike Mr T, though, I've never used scare tactics and predicted the oil price would reach $100 a barrel in a matter of months.

[Rdrokit]

The new fuel will be a blend of ethonol and gasoline. All new fuel injected vechiles will run on this fuel. The problem is if you have a classic car or a mortorcycle with a carburetor and rubber fuel lines. The ethonol with eventually eat through the rubber fuel lines and gaskets in the carburator. There is a good thread on this subject running at thaiclassiccar.com. if you want more info.

www.thaiclassiccar.com/webboard/

***edited by sbk***

[Crossy]

Not quite a classic, but I have an early 90's BMW 325i, advised by BMW Thailand not to put gasohol in it, they couldn't tell me what I could use though

Tried 91, runs without pinging (knock sensors take care of that), zero power

Tried a tank or two of the dreaded gasohol, runs pretty awful as well

So, what about octane boosters, anyone seen non-alcohol boosters available in Thailand??

Maybe I'll consider an LPG conversion.

[Skyline]

I filled up with 91 yesterday as it was almost 10pm and they had run out of 95!!No real engine pinking but a lack of power:(

Octane Boosters are available from Autocar on Srinakarin Rd,cant remember the price though,.

I hope 95 stays at the pumps,my modified engine hates 91!!!

[barryofthailand]

I find that all Esso stations which is Exon Mobile does not sell 95 anymore, just gasahol. Tiwais, you are correct the new engine in the new Toyotas can use either 95 or Gasahol. The only problem is with the blended fuels you only get about 80% of the distance in kilometers as you would with the premium gas. I also wonder what will you put in your motorbike, as all Honda Wave 125 takes 95.

Barry

[koratsteve]

I find that all Esso stations which is Exon Mobile does not sell 95 anymore, just gasahol. Tiwais, you are correct the new engine in the new Toyotas can use either 95 or Gasahol. The only problem is with the blended fuels you only get about 80% of the distance in kilometers as you would with the premium gas. I also wonder what will you put in your motorbike, as all Honda Wave 125 takes 95.

Barry

Barry,

All small Thai made Honda bikes run on 91 petrol, I brought a Honda Wave 125 4 years ago and have run it on 91 for over 30,000 km with no problems, My Honda Civic car also runs on 91, I did read that if the Gasohol 95 took off they might bring out a 91 Gasohol, if that was the case we would all be <deleted>#ked.

[barryofthailand]

I don't know, When I bought my Honda Wave 125 three years ago they said the four stroke technology bikes run on 95, otherwise they will start to smoke if you use 91.

My car which is the new Altis G model has a new engine and even though it's only 1.6 litre it runs on either 95 or gasahol.

Barry

[koratsteve]

I don't know, When I bought my Honda Wave 125 three years ago they said the four stroke technology bikes run on 95, otherwise they will start to smoke if you use 91.

My car which is the new Altis G model has a new engine and even though it's only 1.6 litre it runs on either 95 or gasahol.

Barry

Barry,

If you look at the back of the handbook that came with the bike it should have the red 91 sticker on it. Interestingly my Civic which is the 2.0 vtec runs fine on 91 and even has the sticker inside the fuel flap.

[CHdiver]

I don't know, When I bought my Honda Wave 125 three years ago they said the four stroke technology bikes run on 95, otherwise they will start to smoke if you use 91.

My car which is the new Altis G model has a new engine and even though it's only 1.6 litre it runs on either 95 or gasahol.

Barry

If you look up your Motorbike on this side you can read how much octane your bike needs

http://www.yingyongmotorcycle.com/index1.htm

Your bike is ok with 91.

[barryofthailand]

Thanks very much. I don't know where the handbook is but I always thought all those motorbikes that are smoking was because they were using 91 instead of 95.

Today on the local news they did anounce that in Jan. 2007 95 will be discontinued.

Barry

[Tywais]

Thanks very much. I don't know where the handbook is but I always thought all those motorbikes that are smoking was because they were using 91 instead of 95.

Seems the two strokes do that a lot more then the 4. Not a motor person so can't explain why, perhaps different compression ratios.

[barryofthailand]

I saw on the local news yesterday they were stopping trucks, cars, and motorbikes in Bangkok for safety and emision tests.

Think this is a good idea, but easy to lead to curruption.

Barry

[Plus]

We can't know anything for sure about gasohol. Just look how confusing things really are

From that article in The Nation:

The Energy Ministry's Energy Business Department will in November issue a regulation banning the sale of octane-95...

What will happen with the new boys in charge?

What about the supplies? As murky as ever:

the ministry said it would invest in a depot that would stock up to 30 million litres of the additive... "The 30 million litres would be enough during the transition period. This should stabilise the price and provide enough for one month's consumption," Boonsong said, adding that the ministry plans to review the domestic production and imports. The inventory cost would depend on the ratio of locally produced and imported ethanol...

At present, local ethanol plants' combined capacity is 400,000 litres per day, while it is estimated that 800,000 litres would be needed daily if octane-95 sales are to be banned.

I read in BP earlier that some new ethanol plants won't be operational till February or March.

So here we are. Who knows what's going to happen? Only that Burmese fortune teller. Let's hope new bosses will be more sensible.

[moonoi]

Thanks very much. I don't know where the handbook is but I always thought all those motorbikes that are smoking was because they were using 91 instead of 95.

Seems the two strokes do that a lot more then the 4. Not a motor person so can't explain why, perhaps different compression ratios.

The reason a 2 stroke engine smokes more than a 4 stroke is because you have to mix oil with the fuel for lubrication.......most of these machines have a seperate oil tank and the mixing is done automatically, back in the old days you had to mix it by hand Anyway thats the reason for the smoke in most cases......and you only see it when the engine is under stress (hard acceleration etc)

I remember riding my NSR125RN round the M60 in Manchester (before it became the Manchester ring road) happily cruising along at 90mph and creating a huge smoke trail behind me.....ahh them were the days oh btw its was derestricted with a race exhaust thats why it could do 90mph.......could reach 110mph on the flat with no wind

[PeaceBlondie]

I just checked the listings on yingyong's site, and every Wave uses 91 or higher, so 91 is fine. Even the Sonic RS has a compression ratio (c.r.) of 11:1, and my CBR150R sportbike at 11.1:1 c.r. also takes 91. So, new bikes are not a problem.

I still don't understand how high compression engines can use 91 octane gasoline, but they do.

[makavelithedon]

I just checked the listings on yingyong's site, and every Wave uses 91 or higher, so 91 is fine. Even the Sonic RS has a compression ratio (c.r.) of 11:1, and my CBR150R sportbike at 11.1:1 c.r. also takes 91. So, new bikes are not a problem.

I still don't understand how high compression engines can use 91 octane gasoline, but they do.

Yep, have to agree, I have a wave i 125 and it clearly states in the handbook and on a sticker- 91 so I don't where that story about only using 95 comes from. I have had it 1 year and has never missed a beat on 91. Funny enough I had a normal carb model 125 previously, and it hated 95 always ran like a dog.

There was a Q and A session in the local paper when Gasohol 95 was first introduced with a head engineer or similar from PTT and he quite clearly stated it was not to be used with any non-injection kit. I see brand new scooters of all makes having the stuff put in by all and sundry with none of the staff or owners obviously aware that these bikes shouldn't be using it!

Don't know if anyone else has seen the recent adverts for LPG that PTT are running. Quicker every thing changes over as the norm the better in my book. Runing out of time for the planet fast now people!

[thaihome]

My 95 octane-drinking, but 91- and gasohol-challenged, Subaru Impreza hopes the change of government will also mean a change of policy or at least a 'freeze' while the impending Jan 1 ban is reviewed and a coherent long-term energy strategy devised. So does its owner who doesn't want, and can't afford, a new car.

There were a lot of vested interests involved in the rush into ethanol who, fortunately, are no longer in power. Think PTT privatisation, the former energy minister (ex PTT MD) and political cronies of certain sugar barons, along with several other now-deposed household names. Energy conservation had nothing to do with it.

Gasohol would cost more money for less energy and its introduction should have been very gradually phased in over a decade to avoid immobilising or destroying and reducing the secondhand value to near zero of many cars and motorbikes currently on Thailand's roads.

It was never a realistic short-term fix. There aren't even sufficient facilities in the country to produce it yet, which means expensive imports and more fat subsidies.

Sure, I've a vested interest too in maintaining the status quo, I admit it. Unlike Mr T, though, I've never used scare tactics and predicted the oil price would reach $100 a barrel in a matter of months.

Notwithstanding the vested interest you mention, the main driver for this is to reduce the imports of crude of oil, not conservation. Oil imports are ruining Thailand's balance of trade. This is also the driver for the switch to LPG/NPG or whatever they call it. Thailand doesn't have to import gas [yet]. That will start in about 4 years when the LNG terminal is finished.

TH

[magok naam]

Notwithstanding the vested interest you mention, the main driver for this is to reduce the imports of crude of oil, not conservation. Oil imports are ruining Thailand's balance of trade. This is also the driver for the switch to LPG/NPG or whatever they call it. Thailand doesn't have to import gas [yet]. That will start in about 4 years when the LNG terminal is finished.

TH

That is one of the "official" reasons, yes. But due to a much lower fuel economy when running on E10 (10-30% drop in fuel efficiency has been mentioned), it will not reduce the need for crude oil. More likely to increase it.

If they want to reduce the import of oil and do something for the environment all they have to do is slap a ban (or have one of those famous "crackdowns") on diesel vehicles (read trucks, buses and pickups) with worn out/incorrectly adjusted/dirty engines. Anything with black exhaust should be given a one year notice to either fix it (in many cases all that is needed is cleaning the injection nozzles) or get it off the road permanently. Diesel consumption would probably be reduced by 30-50% in a year...

Now, if they don't give a crap about fuel consumption, the environment etc but just want to fleece the consumers then gasohol/E10 is a great move.

[HDRIDER]

My 95 octane-drinking, but 91- and gasohol-challenged, Subaru Impreza hopes the change of government will also mean a change of policy or at least a 'freeze' while the impending Jan 1 ban is reviewed and a coherent long-term energy strategy devised. So does its owner who doesn't want, and can't afford, a new car.

There were a lot of vested interests involved in the rush into ethanol who, fortunately, are no longer in power. Think PTT privatisation, the former energy minister (ex PTT MD) and political cronies of certain sugar barons, along with several other now-deposed household names. Energy conservation had nothing to do with it.

Gasohol would cost more money for less energy and its introduction should have been very gradually phased in over a decade to avoid immobilising or destroying and reducing the secondhand value to near zero of many cars and motorbikes currently on Thailand's roads.

It was never a realistic short-term fix. There aren't even sufficient facilities in the country to produce it yet, which means expensive imports and more fat subsidies.

Sure, I've a vested interest too in maintaining the status quo, I admit it. Unlike Mr T, though, I've never used scare tactics and predicted the oil price would reach $100 a barrel in a matter of months.

Notwithstanding the vested interest you mention, the main driver for this is to reduce the imports of crude of oil, not conservation. Oil imports are ruining Thailand's balance of trade. This is also the driver for the switch to LPG/NPG or whatever they call it. Thailand doesn't have to import gas [yet]. That will start in about 4 years when the LNG terminal is finished.

TH

Hi

Thailand is importing gas from Yadena field in Myanmar, PTT together with France Total they has a field up there.

[Camelot]

The Bangkok Post took this topic up in a relevant editorial on Saturday.

An energy policy running on empty

When the new government starts listing priorities, it should put the need for a coherent energy policy at the top because, sadly, we lack one at present. The previous regime see-sawed between options and largely based its policy on Mr Thaksin's prediction that the price of crude oil would soar above $100 a barrel. Thankfully, it did not.

Oil prices have been relatively stable, and even dropped yesterday. But his policy did produce some interesting spin-offs, the most sensible of which was to rein in unrealistic subsidies.

One promising initiative was the EcoCar project which would have produced cheap, fuel-efficient runabouts. Despite the difficulties caused by the government insisting on inappropriate and ever-changing specifications, a formula was finally agreed upon with car manufacturers. Then, abruptly, the whole EcoCar project was shelved. Why? Analysts said that had the project materialised, it could have affected the saturated one-tonne pick-up industry, where Thailand is the world's largest producer. They also noted that just as the EcoCar was about to become a reality, Watana Muangsook was replaced as industry minister by Suriya Jungrungreangkit of CTX scanner fame, and the project was quickly scrapped. Coincidentally, Mr Suriya's family owns the Thai Summit Group, a major parts supplier to pick-up truck makers.

Then we were buried in an avalanche of initials as LPG, CNG and NGV conversions were hailed as the way forward. The problem is a lack of availability and difficulties in transporting the preferred NGV (natural gas for vehicles) under high pressure to the small number of outlets which exist so far. Local supplies could run out within five years and multinational oil companies are wary of having to rely on monopolised PTT Plc imports from Burma.

This brings us back to the old favourite, which is benzine blended with ethyl alcohol to produce gasohol 95, which retails for about 1.50 baht less than the tried and trusted premium 95. PTT executives insist that blended gasohol 95 is popular with motorists - so popular, in fact, they assume vehicle owners will support the Energy Ministry's decision to outlaw premium 95 petrol at the pumps from Jan 1, 2007. But what the proponents of mixing 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol conveniently forget is that gasohol is a far weaker energy source, so motorists will be lucky to get 80% of the distance in kilometres they got with the same amount of premium 95. Tests have shown that if a tank of premium 95 gives about a 600km range, the same tank can only be expected to give 420-450km on gasohol 95. Vehicle performance also suffers.

The subsidy for gasohol 95 will be removed when premium 95 is banned, so motorists could actually be paying more for less, especially with an ethanol shortfall pushing up prices.

There are also many cars and motorcycles out there which - despite assurances to the contrary by the Energy Ministry and state-owned PTT - cannot use gasohol 95 or retard the ignition timing sufficiently to run on regular 91 octane. Owners of many older fuel-injection BMWs, Mercedes, Subarus, sports and performance cars and classic cars have been warned by manufacturers that the ethanol in gasohol can eat away at engines and gradually destroy fuel lines, seals and rubber gaskets, creating mechanical and possible fire hazards. These are not all decade-old carburettor vehicles but include some models still in showrooms. So, it is essential that owners check directly with service managers of manufacturers to find out if their vehicle is ethanol-compliant. Better safe than sorry.

Why does the Energy Ministry and PTT not allow limited supplies of premium 95 to remain on the market to cater to an obvious need while slowly phasing in alternative fuels? And who feels so insecure they have to make the sale of premium 95 after Jan 1 a crime punishable by a one-year prison sentence? Retaining the fuel would have little effect on our balance of payments or vehicle emissions. If emissions are a consideration, as they should be, then stop ignoring all the smoke-belching diesel buses and trucks.

Creating a black market in premium 95 petrol is not the answer; a sensible energy policy is.

--- Bangkok Post Saturday, Oct 7