backtonormal

It seems to have been forgotten that military weapons are frequently stolen in Thailand and end up in the hands of non military people. So far there isn't a single bit of evidence that any known (military or otherwise) person was the shooter. If such evidence does become known then those people are the ones that should be charged with a crime, and possibly their direct superiors, but not Abhasit. When you place poorly trained, inexperienced people with low IQ's in the field, then sh!t happens. Probably not much different than those volunteer police that perform street justice on perps.

The concept that that the prime minister or head of CRES is responsible for individual deaths in beyond absurd. Abhasit most likely did not order any of them to shoot anyone.The deaths, as yet unproven, MAY have been caused by a few individuals in uniform that went beyond their authority to use their weapons. They weren't highly trained riot suppression or swat teams. Most were likely recent draftees who were rice farmers just a short time before.

That is about the worst attempt at re directing the blame. Weapons were stolen and it was the paddy folk from up north, slightly condescending. You obviously no little, just antagonise or your one of a merry band who appeared to be thinning out since recent developments. Water melon soldiers (conscripts from up north) were confined to barracks. Purely guessing this was Thailands crack troop (tongue in cheek). Weapons stolen reminds me of the photo of two American looking at some seized weapons, their faces said "hey up these have never been fire. Stolen weapons a story spread by a certain side to justify (in their peanut sized brains) the shooting of innocent civillians. Time you went to another thread.

One more trumped up charge aganist Mark. Becoming a real display of out to get you

When you say trumped up are you refering to there being no dead 14 year old bleeding to death. I have said and will say again. Its all about who gave the orders. If the DSI feels it was illegal to use live rounds then there are charges to answer. Peronally I dont think 'Mark' gave the orders but he may have signed off on them

It's simpler to explain the process to the simple masses thus; 2007 charter written with military pen, unacceptable to many. Result is political fighting. 2013 charter written with Peua Thai pen, unacceptable to many. Result is political fighting. Argue if you will about one being more backed by a democratic vote than the other but it won't make the problem go away. It will just mean that in a few more years a different group will write yet another charter with their own pen that will be unacceptable to many. Result - political fighting forever. The present climate and process proposed to re-write the charter is a recipe for disaster. If the objective is to make the country more democratic is will have the opposite effect because we can't agree yet on what is a balanced democracy. Need to get some compromise and consensus on that first.

I will eat a bucket of Som tum pla lah if as many as 20% of Thais know what the constitution says or what the proposed changes are or how it will supposedly improve their lives.

This is all for Thaksin, PTP and red shirts to clear their names. The Dems want justice to take its course.

That's why we have the hundreds of ridiculous charges against Abhisit - to bully him into accepting it.

Gutter politics at its most rancid

Gutter Politics...fair comment. Can I ask you what your comment would be about a coalition government created under army supervision in an army barracks. Where at least one party leader was made an "offer he could not refuse' to defect from his current coalition. And why you are on a roll, what do you think the offer he could not refuse was. That there is some good olde gutter politics Moruya

Under the last constitution rewrite did the army absolve itself of any crimes under article 309 ??? including that particular coup. And if 309 is still in the constitution would it be possible for the army to coup again without committing a crime. If so I would suggest the removal of 309 is a must. The army and its backers in particular must be bricking it....its their only weapon

I am getting a bit bored when Thai writers keep citing the Magna Carta and that it was drawn in 1215, and then move on to the blatant excuse how Thailand so far had "only" 80 years to develop a democracy. The Magna Carta surely cannot and must not be the yardstick by which to measure Thailand's democratic development. Besides, the Magna Carta was NOT a democratic constitution, but granted certain civil rights and liberties to the general population, while factual power continued to rest with the monarchy and the feudal lords.

If I'd use the same selective argumentation, I could state that Germany ratified and implemented a truly democratic constitution in 1919 (Weimar Republic), and then again in 1949 (Federal Republic of Germany). That was, respectively, "only" 93 and 63 years ago and blows the Thai argument that they had "only" 80 years right out of the water. Few will doubt that German society today is an epitome of democratic principles to which not only lip service is paid, but which are ingrained in and embraced by the population as a whole.

And this is exactly where Thailand's dilemma lies. "Democracy" in this country is just another over-used word, a bit like "hub" and "image". To make democracy work it needs a conscious population willing to actively support the principles that the word entices, not just using it as a kind of mantra, hoping that democracy will magically materialise if only the word is uttered often enough. Democracy does not only come with personal benefits, but it also demands certain duties and responsibilities from the individual, and this is where Thailand falls short. As long as a majority of people are selfish enough to play along with corruption because it serves their own purposes, blatantly disregard laws as long as it brings them some benefit, vote for political parties and individual politicians as long as they are rewarded with freebies, this country is not ready for democracy.

To spin this further (and revert back to the example of a very dark period in German history): Look what can happen if a large proportion of a country's population puts their trust in one single party, because that party promises them "golden times ahead". And that, dear Thai writers and so-called political analysts, happened "only" 79 years ago.

spot on

there is a difference and an important difference between Germany and Thailand and that is one has an educated population and the other one dosen't.

Other than that you have hit the nail on the head.

More importantly lets debate why they have not been educated and who benefits from them not being educated.because its not Thailand

Now it's getting interesting. You're talking assault. So, is Yingluck also liable for charges for ordering that the police ensure the protest for Siam Pitak was 'policed' resulting indirectly in people getting bruised from clashing with the riot squad. I'm interested to see how the courts deal with this. Will they consider the main charge of murder first and determine that under a SoE they are not culpable therefore all other charges should be thrown out, meaning the DSI has wasted a great deal of public money chasing this hatchet job. Counter charges against Tarit for Malfeasance perhaps?

I guess they could, but it would be continuing the pathetic tit-for-tat red shirt approach. Something tells me the lack of immediate response by to this today from the two people being persecuted by the "authorities" of this failing state means indicates to me a more considered response will be given soon, and I highly doubt giving in to an amnesty agreement will be any part of it. My own guess is a higher court ordering an investigation of the DSI itself, as its impartial credibility is now in tatters.

To anybody who isn't a part of the sponsored or brainwashed red flock, the first murder charges were nothing short of an embarrassment to legal process, and not one red cheerleader on this forum could honestly admit they believed it was being done solely for reasons of justice.

This "center" now sets a much lower bar. Again, does anybody here really believe this is about justice?

Failing State that was visited by Obama and today the world bank predicts a bright economic future. Now who gets the part of the horses arse in panto this christmas. We'the red clan are in the ascendency and it must be sh1t for the other crowd. Your band of believers on this forum must be at best minimal. Basically nobodys listening

>Not sure how this will play out, or if this is just a big show with little substance.

>The Airport protest leaders never saw the inside of a jail, whereas Jatuporn, Natthawut and others were ushered into jail without delay. This even included ankle and wrist irons for heavens' sake. There is no more egregious example of double standards than this, for many people. Until they see the leg-irons on Abhisit and Suthep, will there ever be a semblance of judicial balance for these people.

>I read some of Suthep's comments elsewhere. They give as clear an indication of where this is going as anything. His biggest concern was what he stated was the "annoyance' of having to defend himself. The nature of the charges were not of any concern for him, just their 'annoyance'.

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Seems to me it was a Thaksin party in power when the Yellow shirts were in the airport. Why did he not rush them to jail. At any rate you are just a waste of TV time. You don't even try to come close to the topic. Just a continues monologue about the great Thaksin. Not charging Thaksin is what you could call double standards. Sorry I don't know enough small words to explain it to you.

Rush Sondhi and his mates to jail...how long have you been here. The amart sponsored that 6 months debacle that began at government house and the army gave physical armed on site protection to the yellows. Just a continues monologue about the great Thaksin. Where is there any word about Thaksin in the post. In fact your hundreds of previous attempts to turn every thread into 'the bogeyman thread' has been to put it mildly...piss poor. With 6500 posts I am struggling to find an intelligent one.

Is anything political in Thailand NOT a political ploy? I do love how Abhisit responded, especially his interview with the BBC. He manned up, unlike Thaksin, who runs from his problems like a weak, wimpy, pink-panty wearing sissy ladyboy wus that he is. Abhisit stood up, faced the music, knowing these charges are trumped up and won't hold water, but willing to face the music and consequences that may come from them, even to the point of facing death. That's a real man. Thaksin, you should take lessons on manhood from Abhisit. Seems you favor the weak sissy way, instead. Hope you and your underlings read this, as I'm sure, at least, that your weak pawns read and survey everything written about you here.

One of the key problems holding Thailand back is the nonsense political situation. Instead of raising the country and its people up, all you (read Thaksin and his people) do is tear down, hold down and keep your country in its "third world" rating. You don't care about the people of the country, and would rather enrich yourselves only. If you only had a brain, you'd realize that by raising others up, you yourselves would be raised. A rising tide raises all ships. Sadly, the country of Thailand sits, immobilized, on a sandbar, not able to mobilize itself because of fools.The Thais I've met who live in other countries have done well for themselves. Had they the opportunity to do so in Thailand, they would have done well for themselves there, and in turn the country would have been better off. Sadly, they left Thailand and found better opportunities where they could actually apply their skills and talents and prosper, enriching the countries they moved to instead of their homeland. Thailand loses in that regard. That's too bad. But I'm sure Thaksin and his sister and their clan don't give a rip.

Lets see what the real man does if he gets found guilty.. and the loses his appeal. Bit of globe trotting is definately on the cards

This can't backfire.

The Democrats are so deeply unpopular in the poorest regions of the country that this is a win-win for the government.

Guilty verdict satisfies Thaksin, the red shirts and their sympathisers, not-guilty (carefully spun) exposes the corruption in the court system and re-enforces that the elite, the coup-makers and their associates never go to jail.

It's brilliant politics from the master (underhanded admittedly). It also paves way to have all these niggling little 'politically motivated' guilty verdicts annulled.

Watch, and learn.

Yes let's watch and learn. At the moment AV is getting support from many corners because he is fighting his charges and not fleeing the country. People tend to sympathize with the underdog...

Please name people who are supporting him. This guy is not the Asian Mandela. I can stand on a soap box and bleat away about my innocence until the moment the final verdict arrives. He will be off. I will accept the death sentence..pass the tissue for <deleted> sake

They are conditioned to fail in all major subjects so what does one expect. It's callled dumbing them down. The big boys now what they are doing, and they will keep doing it as long as the people allow it.

I know a lot of teachers and there are a lot of teachers here on Thai Visa and I don't think any of them, myself included ever tried to dumb a child down in Thailand or condition them to fail. I spent a lot of extra hours with the children helping them to get better grades and enjoy school. Perhaps you could give us your source of this failing practice. I know a lot of Thai educators who would also like to know.

You should not need to know you are in the system. All children pass because most of the time in school is spent being indoctrinated in the culture and they have not got enough time to learn. Take the following examples. In the Uk children go to school for 190/1 days per year in Thailand its less than 160. Of the 160 how much is wasted on cultural activities. Wasted is maybe the wrong word but for sure you can take off at least another 40-50 days with 2 weeks of sport days, religous festivals, meetings etc and etc. So every year they are falling 0.5 of a year behind. Secondly in the Uk they start primary level at 4 here its six. Do the maths. So when western students are walking home with the degree paper so are the Thai students (with half the education).

Its not the fault of most western teachers its the system. Too much of childrens time is wasted on creating "thainess"

http://asiapacific.a...e-killing-zone/

This is an eye-witness account, by a foreign journalist, of the killing of the taxi driver K. Chunnarong. It includes photographs before and after the event and a great amount of detail about how the soldiers conducted their operation. Pretty brutal stuff. A middle-aged man, armed with a small slingshot, shot to death by trained soldiers armed with high-powered rifles ... David losing to Goliath. Anyway, read the account get a sense of what was really happening on the ground that day....

Just a sec ... I thought the taxi driver was shot when he ran out of his apartment to see what was going on??

Sent from my HTC phone.

Yes, this is clearly something that will need to be cleared up in the investigation. The writer of the account clearly identifies the man as the taxi driver now under discussion. He also has a piece, written in Thai, in which he interviews the man's widow.... My Thai is nowhere near good enough to navigate that.

But there has already been an investigation that determined that the taxi driver was most likely shot by the army and that he just ran down to see what was going on. Does the journalist say that he ran down to see what was going on with his slingshot?

Sent from my HTC phone.

Sorry for quoting your post whybother but there is pages of nonsense I could have quoted. I really feel sorry for the gimp. The DSI (who under dems made no progress for 2 years) have now picked what they believe is the one water tight case to hang on Abhisit. Any orders that were given must have been signed and judging by todays developments it would suggest that they believe rightly or wrongly that the signature belongs to Mark.

We all know he didnt make the call in real life and if this plays out will he fall on the sword or reveal who he received the orders from. To ensure democratic progress coups must never be allowed to happen again and clever Thaksin is making sure this one goes to the wire and I think Thaksin wants the Thai people to know who really gave the orders. There is no amnesty trade off by returning Thaksin for Abhisits acquittal because Thaksin is still the bogeyman because Mark would be seen to do nothing wrong.

As for those who somehow believe that this is to shut Dems up about the rice scam and that Abhisit is scaring the government..get real. The rice adventure is about destroying the rice exporters association who have too much power and allegdelly finance previous coups (amongst others). Thaksin is may to smart for this clusterfook amart and Dem party.

I dont believe Abhisit is guilty but will he give who his paymaster for his freedom. Finally I am a little disappointed that some of the heavyweight yellow shirt facists who post on here have yet to stick their head above the parapet. Theres a challenge

Does anybody want to buy my unused nicotinell patches. I managed to give up without them. . PM me if you want more info. I have 28 days patches of different strength

look at the farang protester.

where?

Farang protester. Just check which deluded pro yellow shirt forum member is not posting today. That will be him

There were reports of cameramen's equipment seized by police.

suppression of the news.... not a positive sign

.

Unconfirmed reports but hey jump on anything you can in support of a lot cause

Pitak Siam leader to decide in three hours whether to continue rally

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Pitak Siam leader Gen Boonlert Kaewprasit said he would wait three more hours before evaluating the situation whether to continue the rally following a scuffle between police and protesters.

He urged more people to join the rally and he would ask the demonstrators in three hours whether the protest should continue.

He claimed that he learned that police would suppress the protesters at noon and he called on troops to come out to protect the demonstrators.

-- The Nation 2012-11- 24

Watching Al Jazeera and Wayne said that the stage was calling for a 5 year suspension of democracy and a hand pick government to be installed. This General is another clown from a long line of from of 'paid for clowns' who come out on payment to support the Amart.

Calling on the army to come out and protect the demonstrators is what this i all about. And the paid for trouble have sent their bill to the General not to Yingluck. Sure allow the protest but anybody calling for unrest should get the same treatment Seh Daeng got

How can you be confused Abhisit ?? You know what you have done some year's ago you stand behind one of the worst violence in Thai history !!!

Oh you mean the violence of sending in troops to battle protestors who were packing assault rifles and grenade launchers?

No, I think he means the use of snipers to shoot unarmed people, nurses, journalists and ordinary Thai folk who were shot just for being there.

There is NO evidence whatsoever that security forces managed to shoot an armed person.

really nurses were shot? according to which source? i seemed to have missed it

You just cant get the staff anymore.... and there was medic also shot helping the wounded

I think fear will stop many turning up. The fact that they are enforcing the ISA will only compound those fears.

The current administration hasn't done enough 'in your face' wrong (although behind the scenes we can all see what's coming). I think this demonstration is a little pre-mature. Still, it provides an opportunity to both see the support these 'royalists' have, and how far the government will go to suppress them if they feel threatened.

I think this is a very level headed comment and worth quoting.

It may worthy if he explained "what was coming

There is a certain segment of most societies that will grab an opportunity to indulge in a little gratuitous violence, particular as part of a large group where the chances of being identified is much smaller. They don't particularly follow the ideals of whichever group they attach themselves to, or care if the cause is won or lost, the fun is in the rough play.

Now while such an element may be handy on some occasions, they can also be an embarassment at other times, and the leadership will try hard to disown them from the ranks of the true believers.

The propaganda and violent rhetoric put out by the red shirts has attracted this segment like a fresh turd attracts flies. The call "bring your weapons" and "bring bottles, we'll supply the petrol" was music to their ears, and it can hardly be surprising what the result was in 2010 when the leadership capitulated, losing all credibility with those they had incited to violence for so long.

Now the red leadership wish to disown them, calling them fake reds. But if you ask those running amok who they are associated with, what answer will they give?

It would have been easy to write...off duty soldiers loyal to boonlert disguised as red shirt start riots by shooting several demonstrators at the rally

"...the authorities suspect some ‘third party’ instigators will disguise themselves as Red Shirt activists..."

I can't believe the media took the bait on this story! Isn't it pretty obvious that this is just a cheap ploy to provide cover for real red shirts who will try to instigate violence?

You sound more knowledgable when you talk about Yinglucks dress sense.

He claimed that there have been offers at Bt1,000-2,000 each to rural people to join the mass rally on Saturday.

Hmmm I wonder if this is enough money to encourage many redshirts to abandon their leaders and join the protest.

Thats 4 times more than they got to vote the current lot in. I would believe B2000 will turn red into just about any other color.

The nutters have taken over the asylum. No cases of vote buying against PTP at last election only Chidchob and he deserted to be with Abhisits military government

20,000,000 people have to stop depending on rice exports so that a handful get rich beyond most peoples imagination. Why cant he quote what the profit margin is on a tonne of rice

quote

"He expressed concern regarding Thailand’s rice exports to China which was reported at 216,000 tonnes in Jan-Oct 2011 but the export volume was reduced to 91,460 tonnes in the same period of this year, an alarming drop of 57.8 per cent."

His idea is to have China bail Thailand out of it's stupidity by screwing it's own people.

Here's an idea quit paying more than it's worth and crying because every one else in the world can get it for the price it is worth. Also reduce the kickbacks by 10% That should help lower the cost.

The quote was attribrituted to

Chookiat Opaswong, president of the Thai Rice Exporters’ Association

so your post does not make sense.

If Yingluck had any sense she would go cap in hand to Wen and offer a deal he can't refuse, cop the loss and write the rice pledge off for the stupidity it represents. She has already wasted billions of baht, a few more to her discredit will mean nothing. If she doesn't then weevil city will take care of it... and cause an even greater monetary loss. Let's hope the censure motion works.

She probably won't have to go cap in hand.

They want trains and access, she has rice. Just reduce domestic production in China by a few percent and the surplus disappears.

Why do the Chinese want trains?

I dont believe I just read that comment. Did you think up that all on your own. DCM

If Yingluck had any sense she would go cap in hand to Wen and offer a deal he can't refuse, cop the loss and write the rice pledge off for the stupidity it represents. She has already wasted billions of baht, a few more to her discredit will mean nothing. If she doesn't then weevil city will take care of it... and cause an even greater monetary loss. Let's hope the censure motion works.

She probably won't have to go cap in hand.

They want trains and access, she has rice. Just reduce domestic production in China by a few percent and the surplus disappears.

And the fools present here thought they would just scrap 20 million tonnes. Deals have been in place for a long time. The non believers can just keep talking about her gaffs and dress sense, shopping trips etc while those of us that know better can discuss the real issues without non sensical interruptions