Ferangled

The Nation and the BKK Post sent their reporters home fearing for their safety, and I have seen if often reported that the red shirts were not friendly to any Thai journalists. I have never read any reports of the red shirts attacking foreign journalists, ... which is what you apparently would like to imply here.

It was very sad that journalists were targeted - whether purposefully or due to negligence - and it doesn't matter who they were reporting for or who was targeting them - that should never have happened.

BTW, from your second link, your selective quoting missed this one.

We are outraged to see the media being repeatedly targeted by both the army and demonstrators. We urge the Thai government to restore order without delay and to lift the media censorship.”

Please don't choke on your patongo...

Ton, you write "I have never read any reports of the red shirts attacking foreign journalists" and quote "media being repeatedly targeted by both the army and demonstrators".

Do you read yourself what you post here, or do you think the quote ONLY refers to Thai media people (like in the Channel3 torching and BP being evacuated) and that makes it more acceptable? Mind you a few foreign reporters felt intimidated walking through the red camp and certainly when interviewing 'guards'. vanderGrift being hit by grenades was just collateral damage of course, he shouldn't have wandered along with the army that day What was he thinking?

You beat me to it...

Poor Chance serves to show the duplicity of the UDD apologists.

In his case, contrary to Fabio's, there is very solid evidence that his serious injuries (I'm not sure if he has recovered yet) were caused by Red Shirts, yet not one tenth (more like zero) of the vitriol directed at the army is directed at them.

Why aren't those frothing at the mouth over the army allegedly killing Fabio say not a word about Chance being fragged by "peaceful protestors"?

The conclusion I arrive is that it's not about people being shot and killed, is about how shoots and kills and how to make facts conform to the narrative of the Red Shirts as a peaceful protest group brutally and unjustifiably oppressed.

As a disclaimer I should point out my position again, that Fabio was probably killed by a stray bullet in the cross fire by a soldier. Which is far, far different than, as some people have been arguing here, that he was targeted as a journalist.

Yes it was probably a stray bullet and the theft of his camera was actually in an effort to protect any evidence it may contain of Red Shirt violence..... errr... which never came to light because....errr.. because the military are simply trying to put this sorry affair behind them and.... um, gee this is hard to swing..... errr... don't want to drag up the events in respect to those that lost their lives... eh? How does that sound, convincing stuff eh?!

And that bullet was obviously a rubber one.... err... possibly swapped over deliberately by a red, no black shirt, in an effort to get the military to fire live rounds mistakenly...er.... so that at a later date... er sorry, I can't seem to spin this one convincingly...

http://www.guardian....kdown-redshirts

I've deleted all the selectively altered quotes and BS in your post and just left this link you provided as a clear indication to all just how deliberately you are twisting every source. These are directly quoted from the source you kindly provided a link to and are 1st hand witness accounts as to the events...

An AP reporter who followed the troops into the protest camp saw the bodies of two men sprawled on the ground, one with a head wound and other apparently shot in the upper body. They were the first known casualties in the assault that began before dawn on a 1km square stretch of downtown Bangkok that protesters have occupied.

Troops fired M-16 rifles at fleeing protesters and shouted: "Come out and surrender or we'll kill you."

An AP photographer saw three foreign journalists shot. One was an Italian photographer shot in the chest. His eyes were rolled back and he showed no signs of life. A Dutch journalist walked into the hospital with a bullet wound in his shoulder. The third journalist was a 53-year-old American documentary film-maker who was treated for a shot in the leg

Outnumbered and lacking firepower, however, the protesters suffered serious casualties. As the fighting intensified, shot demonstrators were being rushed to waiting ambulances.

I saw a Thai man shot as he crouched behind an ambulance which came to rescue him. After coming under fire the ambulance retreated leaving the man stranded in the street.

"Troops are moving into the redshirts central city protest camp firing indiscriminately, as they seek to take back control of the capital's streets.

I wonder why you carefully edited out these snippets from your quotes???

Your own explanation - "This is to reduce the size of my post a to make room for as much information I as I can fit in without over loading the reader but allowing them an informed opinion" is quite clearly total BS and I suggest a more accurate response would be along these lines... this is to reduce the information in my post so that I can give a purely one sided and biased impression of the events, preventing anyone reading my post from having an informed opinion...

You are insulting to your own intelligence let alone that of others and those directly involved in the events of 2010.

Like it or not, the Government appears to be honouring this campaign promise.

so far it seems they've honored around 1% of their promised 11,000,000 tablets. Only 99% more to go.

.

You do like to throw out totally random made up statistics don't you?! Care to back this up with some actual figures rather than just throwing a random % out based purely on your imagination?

Your previous post is highly misleading in that the Nation actually reported 730,000 tablets, as did numerous other sources, while your Malaysian source, Bernama reported 73,000. Do you have any evidence to suggest which figure is correct or are you just cherry picking what suits your post best?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Second-shipment-of-730000-tablet-computers-arrive-30186897.html

http://news.thaivisual.com/second-shipment-of-730000-tablet-computers-arrive/

Under the rules of the inspection, Chinnaphat said 500 units would be selected randomly from every 35,000 units, and only seven units were allowed to fail the test for the 35,000-unit lot to pass.

A senior education official in Kanchanaburi, Jamnong Yordkham, said only two units out of 2,288 distributed locally did not work after their batteries failed to recharge.

It used to be 7 out of 500 picked from 50,000. Good to see the thumbscrews have been put on. Mind you the 2 out of 2288 suggest tests may need to be adjusted a wee bit.

I'm pleasantly surprised close to 800,000 units have arrived already. Wasn't 18th of August a deadline? Amazing China.

Of course with (alomst) all tabletPCs for P1 kids having arrived the 2000+ schools without electricity become a bit of a bother. No Internet access I see as only minor issue with programs already downloaded unto the tablets

2 out of 2288 equates to 0.04% failure rate. I'm interested as to what you would consider an acceptable failure rate?

As for 2000+ schools without electricity, do you have any source to quote to substantiate this figure? Do you even know whether any schools without electricity are going to be issued tablets?

The only reference I can find to this are other unsubstantiated posts on TV... by you, funnily enough! One of which you quote a Nation article which specifically states that schools without electricity will not receive tablets. This figure of 2,000+ has been used in Nation articles but noticeably no source is quoted to substantiate these figures... how old a source did this figure originally come from the 1950s...?!

It's clear that much of the rural North of Thailand has been deliberately marginalised and ignored for centuries; I find it quite ridiculous that somehow the current Government are expected to either magically solve the issues created by previous administrations and instantly modernise and improve vast swathes of infrastructure or deliberately take focus off improving the vast majority of schools that do have electricity and internet access, in favour of focusing on widespread improvements in the North which they would then be attacked on, for focusing on their own supporter base and not those in Bangkok and the South... it's a vicious non-nonsensical circle.

As it stands infrastructure and educational improvements have been taking place in the rural north, as those with any actual real world perspective and experience of these areas report. You can't expect these villages to go from rural isolation and poverty to bustling modern hubs of commerce overnight but improvements are happening and general standards of living are improving, just at a pace that is sustainable and realistic...

What I was not prepared for was poverty shock. Yes Pattaya was much as expected and more. Bangkok was a traffic nightmare. It was up country where I was in shock. My first trip to Thailand and within days I was in a small agricultural village near Udon Thani in the Northeast of Thailand. There was no TV. Probably a good idea as there was no electricity either. But it was the children that shocked me. They were well fed, Had a big broad Thai smile, but they had no shoes. They had no school bags. But that did not matter either. The nearest school was 20 kilometers away and the villagers couldn't afford the bus fare to send the kids to school.

The only means of transport, apart from a bicycle, was the mechanical buffalo. A two wheeled tractor that took the workers to the rice fields at dawn and carried them home again at dusk. Of course it was used in the rice paddies for ploughing and carrying the sheaves of rice back to the village for threshing. There was only one mechanical buffalo in the village and one threshing machine that serviced four or five villages.

Development has come quickly to this the poorest part of Thailand. I paid a visit to my first village last year. Electricity has arrived. Every house has a color TV and the mechanical buffalo has been replaced by a real agricultural tractor. There is only one tractor in the village. However now it seams every household can afford to feed it's own mechanical buffalo. Oh and the children still don't have any shoes. It doesn't matter they built a new school in the centre of the village. The kids sit there in the school, no shoes, big smiles on their brown faces as they play on the internet. Strange how things change.

Like it or not, the Government appears to be honouring this campaign promise. Was it the most constructive policy that could have been initiated? Perhaps not but it certainly worked in helping to get them elected and the fact that they are now delivering on their promise is a slap in the face to all the doubters. At the very least this helps focus on improving education in Thailand, as the use of these tablets will be closely scrutinized.

This thread has descended into a complete mockery of bickering and deliberate belligerence. What a surprise. I particular like the petty jibes and name calling that posters believe somehow reinforces what they are saying when in reality it makes them appear childish and irrelevant.

"No, you rushed straight to your prejudiced conclusion, the same one that motivates most of your posts, Grasshopper "

"Read Posts # 101 and # 115 , Mr. Baiter."

"Anyway, it's redundant. The photos are gone. "

One could be forgiven for thinking this was actually an argument in a nursery school not a forum for comment on news, specifically the shooting of a photographer. A shameful display.

To some it's fairly obvious what took place, photographic evidence coupled with witness statements leave little doubt in the minds of those with any sense of impartiality. It's evident that many here would doubt a signed confession from those responsible along with a complete video of the events that took place. There is clearly enough evidence pointing to what happened but the knee jerk refusal of some to accept anything that goes against what they would like to believe happened is a worrying indication of how people are prepared to ignore better judgement and reason in favour of pandering to their ego.

It's pretty obvious that one group here was actively seeking media attention for their cause, while another was doing everything possible to play down the situation and control any press releases. Consider that, the motivations at play, the weight of photographic evidence and witness statements available... and please try to keep the playground out of the News forum, if you really have to call people names just send them a PM, don't make a tw@t of yourself on a public forum and lower the tone for what's quite an emotional topic for those more directly involved than others.

Many eat 6 meals a day..Cutting back to 3 meals a day would be a great start...

The problem isn't that they eat 6 times a day but as you say, they eat 6 "meals" a day.

Good point in that eating little and often is actually believed to be more conducive to a healthy body and lifestyle than the traditional 3 square meals... makes sense to me. If you compare the human body as a car, filling up the tank for a long journey means adding considerable weight, whereas filling up little and often would maintain less weight and better fuel economy as a result...

"...and mostly unarmed protesters"

What red-shirt uprising were they at? I seem to recall a number of "black shirts" operating in those crowds.

Anyway, as many said, the article is yellow-journalism, pure and simple. The headline claim distorts the actual facts as reported in the article itself but 'better' reported by AP.

so in your opinion, was there more armed red shirts than unarmed?

the quote says 'Mostly unarmed' and I think I would agree with that.

Tell us again, that one where they only had weapons to defend themselves against the army!

Armed is like pregnant. A group is armed or it is not. And if you are armed, and those weapons are used, "peaceful protest" is a joke.

This is a classic, so now you can be pregnant by proxy???!!!

Is that what your wife told you, it wasn't the milkman Mick, I stood next to a friend that was pregnant, it's contagious you know!!!

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Posted Today, 11:34

let me get this straight, if you plant bombs in the south and plan murders of soldiers, police, teachers etc you are an insurgent, if you attend a rally in Bangkok and then have to defend yourself from the army attacking you then you are a terrorist (before all the holier than thou posters start I am referring to those reds branded as terrorists on this site despite sitting there peacefully and making no threat or doing any damage)

Short term memory loss?

What have you proved, that you can't find a quote where Carra has stated "they only had weapons to defend themselves against the army" !!!???

This thread goes from the surreal to the ridiculous to just plain idiotic!

I guess the fact that he ended the post you have quoted by quite deliberately adding that he was referencing only those branded terrorists but not actually engaged in any violence is irrelevant, because you are trying (but failing miserably) to make a point?!

It's not hard to see why when you look at the kids eating butter soaked, sugar coated breads for breakfast, brunch, lunch, afternoon snack, dinner, pre-bed snack.

There are students at the school my kids go to, that have elephant feet; that is their legs and calf muscles are bigger than their feet, so it looks like they have elephant feet, just a round mass of flesh contacting the ground.

This can't be healthy.

I think the real obesity issue in Thailand rests firmly with the current generation of school children. I am amazed at how many overweight children there are in Thailand and have seen many examples of the elephant feet phenomenon that you speak of.

What's worse it appears that most parents believe that it is actually healthy for their children to be overweight. I think this harks back to the whole notion that obesity is a sign of wealth and status, traditional in developing countries where food is often scarce. Now however Thailand has plentiful food supplies but these archaic views still exist...

What makes this particularly sad is that when overweight as a child, it places significant strain on the body, the heart and lungs especially. As well as a proper diet, there needs to be a far greater focus on sports and exercise in both schools and at home.

So someone (the watermelon police) says they 'believe' the photographer was shot by the army. Any competent judge would throw this out in 5 minutes.

The pro-red-shirts have once again attempted to turn someones opinion into 'fact'. Just as the same crowd did in the Abhisit 'draft dodging' case which is even more based on opinion & heavily biased opinion at that.

Yes, it is possible - maybe even probable - that the army shot the photographer, but let's see how strong the proof is before making a judgement.

"Police Colonel Suebsak Pansura, who is heading a team investigating the case, said they had questioned 47 witnesses and experts over the death of Fabio Polenghi and gathered evidence to submit to prosecutors.

"The conclusion found that the cause of his death was believed to have been a gunshot from the authorities on duty," he told Bangkok's Criminal Court on the opening day of the inquest."

Crazy stuff eh? The police gathering witness statements and interviewing experts... whatever next?!

This isn't some random comment from a policeman, this is the conclusion they have drawn from the evidence gathered, which is to be presented in court. If it doesn't stand up, the court will presumably throw it out. We all know that the army were shooting people in Bangkok at the time just not whether they deliberately shot this photographer and stole his camera...

When I was on satellite TrueVisions here in Bangkok (I'm now on cable) it was not uncommon to experience rainfade "with no rain"...the thunderstrom was just approaching. What was happening here was the line of sight between my dish and the satellitte was already being affected by the thunderclouds high in sky although it was not raining yet at my location. And my dish was perfectly aligned...I did it myself to tweak out a few more db gain from the original True installation. But after I installed the combo C/KU-band LNB on my 1.7M (5.5ft) C-band dish and stopped using the TrueVisions 75cm dish/LNB about 90% of my rainfade problem went away due to the increased gain offerred by the larger dish.

Right on the money.

Buy your own bigger, better dish and swap out the cheap True freebie (yes, you get what you pay for and the free dishes are crap)... you will enjoy a much more stable sat signal. I'm down in Phuket, frequent storms blowing in and I very rarely lose signal.

“It is clear from the evidence submitted to the ACHR by the opposition political parties that the firings by the security forces have not been ‘in self-defence or defence of others against the imminent threat of death or serious injury’ but premeditated and willful acts of killings.”- stated Mr Suhas Chakma, Director of Asian Centre for Human Rights.

ACHR PRESS RELEASE

It's a pity that with such diametrically opposite and heavily politisized sides any "evidence submitted to the ACHR by the opposition political parties" is immedialely suspect. Sorry, but that's the way it is, especially as no outsiders have been given clear insight in the material. I also wonder how 'evidence' submitted can clearly distinquish between 'shoot to defend' and 'shoot to kill'.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here

Yeah because I am sure the ACHR dont take things like that into account before commenting! and rely solely on what the opposition poltical party have said without question.

That's not what I said, but now that you mention it. K. Suhas indeed only mentioned evidence from opposition political parties. That raised two questions, 1.) which opposition party (timing is important here with the field having changed after the last General Electon). and 2.) did the ACHR also receive evidence from other parties or groups?

Surely when evidence submitted that is so damning that it would provoke that conclusion, it matters not who submitted it.

For example if during an investigation of a murder, an anonymous source gave investigators a signed confession from the murderer, along with CCTV footage showing the accused committing the act, time stamped and verified, who submitted the evidence pales into insignificance when compared with the evidence itself...

The Strategic Committee for Water Resources Management (SCWRM) has explained that although some farmers will not be able to grow rice during flooding months, there will be opportunities for new livelihoods.

"For example, they might raise fish during flood season instead," SCWRM member Dr Anond Snidvongs said...

What a classic, never mind that your fields will be under water for months, your crops ruined, make the best of the situation and switch to fish farming!!! I'm sure all paddy fields have the necessary equipment to raise fish, adequate supplies of fish stock and the 2-3 months of flood water would create ample time to start fish farming from scratch, finishing up just in time for the flood waters to disperse, ready to start planting rice again in the new year!!!

"We will try to keep floodwater levels at no more than 1.5 metres from ground level," he said, "We will also try not to let floodwater linger for more than 21 days. We will drain it as soon as possible".

Better make that 21 days not 2-3 months... they're going to need some pretty fast breeding, fast growing species of fish...

Well to be fair they did try to stamp out corruption at the very top but the guy concerned then ran away and has never come back. So what do you suggest they do next?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Abhisit is found to have dodged the draft, treat him the same as every other Thai national caught and prosecuted for the same - 3 years inside and then a stint in the deep south.... of course whether or not Abhist would stay to serve his sentence or turn fugitive is anyone's guess...

Does this cozyness mean soon we'll be able to buy French wine and cheese at an affordable price?

You hit my heart!

Goat cheese and a simple Chardonnay for sea food, that is what I miss in Thailand..

Good seafood I have, but from Burma. (my visa run to Mae Sot)

It seems I'm not the only one to take that post on face value... careful there is a (very well) hidden point that Rubl is making, although he seems unsure of what it is!

Moving off topic a bit, but where 300B/day may buy a decent French wine (if not taxed exorbarantly), a 300B/day wage doesn't allow one to indulge much in such extravagance

Errr... no, quite... so I guess the majority Thai population were not at the forefront of your mind when you made your original comment eh? Is that your point?!

A reminder of your post...

"Does this cozyness mean soon we'll be able to buy French wine and cheese at an affordable price?"

Or are you alluding to a hidden meaning, that no trade deal with France could possibly benefit the Thai people because all they produce is wine and cheese?! Some seem simply intent on arguing, to what end it seems they have no grasp...

I was talking from a purely selfish view that I would appreciate being able to enjoy French wine and Cheese without the exorbitant taxes inflating the prices to the point that they are only affordable to the super rich... and hey I guess it would nice if the everyday Thai also had the choice over a nice bottle of red as opposed to some sort of whisky/ paint remover blend at a similar price...

Who am I to speak for Thai? Who am I to dare to suggest "we'll be able to buy" may refer to more people, foreigners, etc. than only me? Mind you in one reply I indicated that 'affordable' probably wouldn't apply to a larger part of the Thai population.

My apologies for only mentioning wine and cheese. but as you know the love of a man goes through his stomach

?! I have no idea what you are banging on about! You made the comment and you brought the salary levels of your average Thai into the equation... I suggest you could ably continue this conversation with yourself without my assistance!

To make my position quite clear - less tax on French wine & cheese I see as a positive because I like French cheese and wine. That's it, I see no hidden agenda or ploy to deprive the Thai populace of French cuisine...

]French President Francois Hollande hailed Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's "commitments in favour of democracy and freedom" as they met in Paris on Friday, his office said.[/b]

Hollande's aides should really have told him about Yingluck's red party committing serious breaches of UDHR laws on human-rights, when they allowed the home-addresses of dissenting judges to be distributed to angry street thugs. Maybe Hollande has a different definition of "democracy and freedom" than UDHR do. Maybe he thinks that government thugs making citizens afraid to live in their own homes, is a symbol of democracy and freedom.

Hollande started out working for Mitterrand who was a hapless communist, and whose far-left polices led to a huge economic disaster in France. Hollande is the same kind of champagne socialist as his communist mentor was. I'm not surprised at all that Yingluck is viewed so kindly by these freewheeling communists.

Government thugs making citizens afraid to live in their homes?! Someone needs to get out more and watch less drama on TV. What are you on about Yunla?!

Do you have the slightest idea about communism or a socialism? You seem a tad confused... I would love to have just one thread on TV left as a real discussion and not a platform to spout Anti-red/ yellow BS. The continual mudslinging is childish and shows a distinct lack of critical thinking.

It doesn't matter how much nonsense you talk, foreign Governments make ties with the elected leaders of other Governments. Yingluck is the elected PM of Thailand. She's dealing with the train wreck that is Thailand's international image, a legacy left after Abhisit demonstrated to the world so well that the old school elitist's grip on power was failing as the country was brought to the brink of civil war.

The French and English had similar periods in their history, culminating in outright violence c.200 and C.350 years ago respectively, giving the current leaders of those countries a rather unique perspective on what issues Thailand is facing now... don't be surprised that foreign sympathies don't echo the writing of such neutral media outlets as "The Nation"...

Well you pretty well said a mouthful with

"don't be surprised that foreign sympathies don't echo the writing of such neutral media outlets as "The Nation"

A newspaper known for sensationalizing things. Miss leading headlines and in general a poor source of information

The article said

"Yingluck also met Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault, who hailed Thailand for "again finding the road to democracy and stability after a period of tensions," his office said."

Do you even have a remote idea of what the word after means.

How do you figure vote buying is Democracy.

A strange world you live in.

Exactly... I see sarcasm is lost on you!

Vote buying? Back to this old gem is it? What are you banging on about?!!! What relevance to what has been posted or written in the OP?!

Please provide the non existent evidence you have of vote buying in the last election... even the Nation hasn't tried treading that slippery slope as it's been widely and internationally accepted as a fair election.

After - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/after

I notice that you didn't even try to engage the actual topic or defend the post I was replying to which demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge as to both French politics and the ideals of Socialism and Communism.

Does this cozyness mean soon we'll be able to buy French wine and cheese at an affordable price?

Let's hope so... That would surely mark Thailand's acceptance as a developed country!

I'm not really sure there is that type of relation, French wine/cheese versus developed country. I have Spanish and Italian friends who would probably disagree

BTW with price levels in Europe as they are my mention of 'affordable' probably doesn't effect a larger part of the Thai population. Certainly 300B/day would be insufficient

I beg to differ, with the current strength of the baht, 300 bt a day would buy a decent bottle of French wine with change left over for some Brie and a baguette... and free and ready access to foreign imports, free trade agreements with major nations are both signs of a country stepping towards developed status, although my comment was obviously tongue in cheek.

I would have to agree with your Italian and Spanish friends however in that neither Italy or Spain are truly developed nations...

Well you blather on and forget that Thaksin is at the top. You base all your assumptions on a 30 year old document that could have easily been inserted by the PT as they have control over it.

It is clearly a sign of desperation The Dem's have a minority but the PT is so inept that they can see they no longer have the backing of the people so they try to draw attention away from them selves and focus it on the opposition based on a easily forged piece of paper that they have 100% control of.

Yes, this thread is so clearly about Thaskin isn't it?! That's not an example of the same diversionary and mudslinging tactics used by both Reds and Yellows??!!

You seem to forget that Thaksin has already been convicted and is a fugitive on the run.... well at least on the run from Thailand, it seems most countries with a sense of perspective of such matters welcome him with open arms...

"countries with a sense of perspective of such matters welcome him with open arms"

Now let me see. Welcomed: Macedonia, Cambodia, Zimbabwe. Admitted: Japan (after asked by MoFA), Italy (after being detained for confirmation). Laos, UK, Indonesia, etc., etc.

Yes exactly, he's been all travelling all across Europe, Africa, Asia and just been granted a US visa.... how exactly are you making a distinction between admittance and welcomed?! Quite the globe trotter for an international fugitive..

What countries have refused him entry?

Does this cozyness mean soon we'll be able to buy French wine and cheese at an affordable price?

Let's hope so... That would surely mark Thailand's acceptance as a developed country!

Well you blather on and forget that Thaksin is at the top. You base all your assumptions on a 30 year old document that could have easily been inserted by the PT as they have control over it.

It is clearly a sign of desperation The Dem's have a minority but the PT is so inept that they can see they no longer have the backing of the people so they try to draw attention away from them selves and focus it on the opposition based on a easily forged piece of paper that they have 100% control of.

Yes, this thread is so clearly about Thaskin isn't it?! That's not an example of the same diversionary and mudslinging tactics used by both Reds and Yellows??!!

You seem to forget that Thaksin has already been convicted and is a fugitive on the run.... well at least on the run from Thailand, it seems most countries with a sense of perspective of such matters welcome him with open arms...