lostoday

It is pretty hard. In the OP they didn't say where to report, when to report or what form to use or what would happen if you did not.

They're is a fine of 10,000thb I believe if you have an unreported foreigner in your premises, maybe more now, i remember that was the price about 6 years ago

And why do you know what it was 6 years ago? Did you pay a fine?

I remember there was a "crackdown" on this issue years ago when immigration police visited every guesthouse and hotel in the Khao San Rd area to ask for a daily list of guest names and passports numbers...

I don't know if they still come around daily, but they were doing it back then

Maybe they forgot to enforce it for a few years and just starting again now? Such is the way with crackdowns in thailand....

Did you know anyone who paid a fine?

Does anyone really believe the Fed will do a rate rise this September?

Jury still out there. USA economy improving but not great. The employment gains really not up to expectation. There really no inflation at the moment and a strong dollar is bad for the exporters at time when other competing countries have a weak currency and global demand is still very soft. Doubt September and possibly kick the can to next year.

Almost certainly will raise this month. 25 basis points, from nearly zero for years now, won't even be noticed and is long overdue. Even if they raised it 50 basis points, which they won't...it would still be historically very low. A hike will bring some stability back to the markets and also prepare for further rate hikes next year. Then watch the baht crumble!

Certainly will not raise this month. Come back in a few weeks and admit you were wrong.

Do they have beef base? Seems like they would but I can't find it in the catalog.

I don't know the detail, but was under the impression that Thailand was *intentionally* going to devalue the baht.

Fed doing rate rise, I don't know how they can. I think they'd like to, but the system is in such a state that I'm not sure it could accommodate it.

How would Thailand intentionally devalue the baht?

Banks said Oct 2014 - TMB Bank plc, formerly known as Thai Military Bank, reckons the moment Thais will confidently dip into their spending money is just around the corner and that it will produce a “V-shaped” recovery. Economists at Siam Commercial Bank, also see a nice pick-up around the corner, with the economy returning to its potential of around 4.5% in 2015. And the Bank of Thailand, the central bank, agrees that things will soon improve.

Ask economists at the World Bank (which stopped lending to Thailand long ago because the country had become too rich) and the answer is different.

It surprises no one that Thailand’s economy has performed poorly over the past year. The country has suffered six months of political agitation; the absence of a proper government capable of handling fiscal policy since the end of 2013, when the prime minister at the time, Yingluck Shinawatra, dissolved parliament; and then a military coup in May.

An empirical analysis of the impact of coups on other national economies shows that growth slows, on average, by 2.1 percentage points in the year of a coup, 1.3 and 0.2 in the first and second year after the coup.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2014/10/thailands-economy

So, there is your answer.

If you would like to know how to increase the GDP and the value of the baht it is no problem but I charge for that information. PM me for rates. PS I give a discount for democracies.

Sorry but no, that's not a viable answer.

You start off by taking a shot at how poorly some Thai banks have forecast recovery in the Thai economy, a sin not suffered by banks in other economies of course, ahem! And then you talk about the World Bank having a different answer, whatever that might be! Reminds me somewhat of Christine Laggard forecasting that the economy of UK Plc would hit the skids, only to offer a grovelling apology two months later.

But then to the probable crux of what you've written, the reason the Thai economy is in the doldrums is because of the coup and this has been proven by studies of the economies of other countries post coup. Oh really!

History has shown that "political agitation" has had no lasting impact whatsoever on the Thai economy, even when there were tanks in the streets and snipers shooting people in temples, the economy remained robust, and as a bi-product, so did the currency.

I'm afraid matey that you've missed it all by a wide margin here, but I understand that it's just so easy to blame the coup or indeed, bash Thailand. Had you said a combination of capital outflows resulting from the US rate picture and a slow down in the Chinese (and global) economy were to blame I could have agreed with you and given you a like, as it stands I I'm headed in the opposite direction.

What do you mean not a viable answer? Get a stable government to stop the economic slide. Doesn't take a brain trust to figure that one. History has shown An empirical analysis of the impact of coups on other national economies shows that growth slows, on average, by 2.1 percentage points in the year of a coup, 1.3 and 0.2 in the first and second year after the coup."

Thailand is not different (except in economic expertise) than any other country. I'm right. The numbers reflect I'm right and you are wrong.

Things haven't gone as hoped. Eight months later, capital is fleeing the country ($1.58 billion out of equities alone in the last 12 months). The economy is flirting with deflation and a possible recession; both consumer prices and the economy are growing at a meager 0.6 percent pace. Unless the government gets moving on long-postponed structural reforms, the economy could well slip into its own lost decade.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-22/thailand-coup-leaders-need-to-revamp-economy-faster

We do not agree, I do not accept the quality of the government is the sole root cause as you posted earlier, not a chance. And your empirical analysis is nonsense from an unreliable source that quotes averages and is contrary to recent history in Thailand. A useful quote here says much:

"While Thailand's military-led government is clearly aware of the need to avoid scaring off foreign investment, it remains to be seen whether the junta will be any better than its elected predecessors at attracting it".

http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Economy/Junta-sends-clear-message-More-foreign-investment-a-must.

But I am pleased to see that you've amended your reasoning a little bit to include capital outflows, keep going, you're getting there, slowly.

Capital is not running away from Thailand because of the USA or any other foreign influence. It is running out of Thailand because of historical experience with similar situations in other countries the same as Thailand. BTW last response to you as you are being patronizing and impolite.

Their country, their rules, how hard is that to understand?

It is pretty hard. In the OP they didn't say where to report, when to report or what form to use or what would happen if you did not.

They're is a fine of 10,000thb I believe if you have an unreported foreigner in your premises, maybe more now, i remember that was the price about 6 years ago

And why do you know what it was 6 years ago? Did you pay a fine?

OK I'll bite, what was it that Thailand did that wrought havoc with the economy and why was the current fall in value of THB their fault?

Banks said Oct 2014 - TMB Bank plc, formerly known as Thai Military Bank, reckons the moment Thais will confidently dip into their spending money is just around the corner and that it will produce a “V-shaped” recovery. Economists at Siam Commercial Bank, also see a nice pick-up around the corner, with the economy returning to its potential of around 4.5% in 2015. And the Bank of Thailand, the central bank, agrees that things will soon improve.

Ask economists at the World Bank (which stopped lending to Thailand long ago because the country had become too rich) and the answer is different.

It surprises no one that Thailand’s economy has performed poorly over the past year. The country has suffered six months of political agitation; the absence of a proper government capable of handling fiscal policy since the end of 2013, when the prime minister at the time, Yingluck Shinawatra, dissolved parliament; and then a military coup in May.

An empirical analysis of the impact of coups on other national economies shows that growth slows, on average, by 2.1 percentage points in the year of a coup, 1.3 and 0.2 in the first and second year after the coup.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2014/10/thailands-economy

So, there is your answer.

If you would like to know how to increase the GDP and the value of the baht it is no problem but I charge for that information. PM me for rates. PS I give a discount for democracies.

Sorry but no, that's not a viable answer.

You start off by taking a shot at how poorly some Thai banks have forecast recovery in the Thai economy, a sin not suffered by banks in other economies of course, ahem! And then you talk about the World Bank having a different answer, whatever that might be! Reminds me somewhat of Christine Laggard forecasting that the economy of UK Plc would hit the skids, only to offer a grovelling apology two months later.

But then to the probable crux of what you've written, the reason the Thai economy is in the doldrums is because of the coup and this has been proven by studies of the economies of other countries post coup. Oh really!

History has shown that "political agitation" has had no lasting impact whatsoever on the Thai economy, even when there were tanks in the streets and snipers shooting people in temples, the economy remained robust, and as a bi-product, so did the currency.

I'm afraid matey that you've missed it all by a wide margin here, but I understand that it's just so easy to blame the coup or indeed, bash Thailand. Had you said a combination of capital outflows resulting from the US rate picture and a slow down in the Chinese (and global) economy were to blame I could have agreed with you and given you a like, as it stands I I'm headed in the opposite direction.

What do you mean not a viable answer? Get a stable government to stop the economic slide. Doesn't take a brain trust to figure that one. History has shown An empirical analysis of the impact of coups on other national economies shows that growth slows, on average, by 2.1 percentage points in the year of a coup, 1.3 and 0.2 in the first and second year after the coup."

Thailand is not different (except in economic expertise) than any other country. I'm right. The numbers reflect I'm right and you are wrong.

Things haven't gone as hoped. Eight months later, capital is fleeing the country ($1.58 billion out of equities alone in the last 12 months). The economy is flirting with deflation and a possible recession; both consumer prices and the economy are growing at a meager 0.6 percent pace. Unless the government gets moving on long-postponed structural reforms, the economy could well slip into its own lost decade.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-22/thailand-coup-leaders-need-to-revamp-economy-faster

So you and a couple of old wheezers you know spend a million baht a year (only £20,000; $30,000) and that means ALL retirees are spending the same or more?

If that's the case, why are all those visa "agents" inundated with requests from pensioners needing help meeting the 800K requirement.

I don't know of any agents who get requests and I think it is a myth. But quit your complaining. If you want to know do the math. I did and I told you the results.

For your information I have a very active social life and belong to many organizations in Thailand and know thousands of retirees in my capacity of an adviser to certain segments of our retired population.

PM JT and ask him to do a survey if you want to know or do one yourself. Why do you care anyway? Why not just take my word for it? What difference does it make to you?

I explained it to the kids in the village last night. I cut out little farmers out of paper and a bank and a general and gave them all some one baht coins (GDP) and let the kids push them around on the table. They had fun doing this for an hour. I then asked them to add up the coins and see if they were the same. They said yes but the bankers had more and the farmers had less. I asked them if the total (GDP) had changed. They counted and said no.

The children learned you don't add to GDP by pushing money around. One has to add to the money by creating wealth not just pushing wealth from poor people to rich people because sooner or later the poor people run out of money (cake) and get angry and invent the guillotine.

I asked the children; what to do? They said get more Farang to retire in Thailand and bring money/dollars from the USA to spend. I said that was a good idea. One little boy said maybe someone with some money from outside of Thailand wants to buy something Thais have too much of and want to sell? He made some more comments but his sister slapped him and I never found out what he had to say.

"Due to uncontrollable external factor", Heres me thinking it

was more an internal factor,well its always someone or somethings

fault.

regards worgeordie

Yes, but Thais will never admit that something they did wrought havoc on the economy, whatever it was.

It's always be the foreigners, and usually the westerners who don't understand Thai culture.

The problem is that they do understand and they don't swallow the BS. That's the real problem in a nutshell.

Some hard lessons coming.

OK I'll bite, what was it that Thailand did that wrought havoc with the economy and why was the current fall in value of THB their fault?

Banks said Oct 2014 - TMB Bank plc, formerly known as Thai Military Bank, reckons the moment Thais will confidently dip into their spending money is just around the corner and that it will produce a “V-shaped” recovery. Economists at Siam Commercial Bank, also see a nice pick-up around the corner, with the economy returning to its potential of around 4.5% in 2015. And the Bank of Thailand, the central bank, agrees that things will soon improve.

Ask economists at the World Bank (which stopped lending to Thailand long ago because the country had become too rich) and the answer is different.

It surprises no one that Thailand’s economy has performed poorly over the past year. The country has suffered six months of political agitation; the absence of a proper government capable of handling fiscal policy since the end of 2013, when the prime minister at the time, Yingluck Shinawatra, dissolved parliament; and then a military coup in May.

An empirical analysis of the impact of coups on other national economies shows that growth slows, on average, by 2.1 percentage points in the year of a coup, 1.3 and 0.2 in the first and second year after the coup.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2014/10/thailands-economy

So, there is your answer.

If you would like to know how to increase the GDP and the value of the baht it is no problem but I charge for that information. PM me for rates. PS I give a discount for democracies.

Just bought a 2 million baht CD from Bang of Bangkok with passport only.

I just bought a Thai CD at 1.68%

Define and quantify "signifcant"

70 to 140 thousand in a populuation of 67 odd million is insignificant irrespective of the way you try and dress it up

I agree that was my point.

Thank you

Hello Mydee,

OK I take your point , however I will try to quantify .

First fact is that the last Thai census was taken in 2010 . That stated there were in excess of 200,000 retirees and foreigners on extended tourist visas etc . The ethnic Thai population within Thailand was 75% . The remaining 25% from Chinese 18% and other Asian countries .

Monetary calculations of contributions to the economy cannot be based simply on populus . E.G. a retired westerners income will probably exceed that of a Thai earner many times over . Also lets not forget the wealth of the Chinese .

Second fact is that 1% of the richest people own 50% of the global wealth . That analogy could be applicable here .The expat retiree could be out numbered by 100 million and my statement would probably still be accurate .

Finally I do appreciate your valid critique . It is good to know that some reader's digest the posts and are able to offer an area for debate .

Many thanks ,

Superal

Actually it was me who posed this question, make it 200k then, but give me the number how much does the average retiree contribute to the Thai economy ? most of your post is just flim flammery

Since 100% of retirees money is from outside of Thailand 10 x multiplier @800,000 baht each that's about 45 billion USD per year.

A couple of things to consider in your dodgy calculation.

How many actual retirees are there? You can't count everyone on 'Retirement' extensions as some are fraudulent, working etc.

Why 800k? Thats the amount they need in the bank to get the extension and has no relevance to the amount they actually spend.

Lets look at it this way, lets suppose they increased the 800k to 1million or 1.5 million how many couldnt meet that criteria ?

Easy to figure. https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/sample-size-calculator/

If the total retirees is 200,000 for an estimate on spending with a confidence level of 90% and a margin of error 5% either way you need a survey of 269 individuals.

I spend a million baht a year and every retired guy I know spends more than that.

Have JT design a survey and if he gets 269 responses it will be quite accurate.

Once the survey is completed figure the correct multiplier for new (outside of the country) money and calculate and divide by the GDP for the percent.

If all of the retirees are like me the total would be just a bit less than rice sales.

But I don't want to freak you guys out. Don't believe me. Do the numbers. And don't call me a liar until you do do the numbers. It is not difficult I gave you all the necessary information.

I know the answer because I have done the numbers but you would not believe me so do it yourselves.

fraternities are nothing like families.

at least to be someone's kinsman you don't need to be initiated. you are already a kinsman. in monarchy bad effect of nepotism is counterbalanced by good effect of genes, continuity and independence from ohlos.

in history there were so many rich families and monarchies which lost there wealth and power because negative effects became stronger than good effects

"initiation" is just a ritual - a lie and manipulation in order to convince someone to obey (without no objective reason) the collective and it's self-proclaimed leader(s). to give up personality and free will.

people with weak personalities, who subconsciously wish to give up the responsibility for life choices, are happy to be a part of a collective, a tribe, a gang, which will tell them what to do, how to live and what to believe in.

all mafias, gangs, radical movements and parties, religious sects and cults, fraternities, etc are in constant search of this kind people.

read Erich Fromm's "Escape from Freedom".

1. Good effect of genes? No one is that uniformed. Genes and the house of Windsor? http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/haemophilia.html or Google genetic disorders European Royality.

2. Initiation may involve doing good or charity work. You don't know.

3. Most US Presidents were members of Fraternities.

Read

18 U.S. Presidents Were in College Fraternities

It is obvious you are not a member of a Fraternity or an owner of a business. So, I submit you are talking from the outside looking in - without any actual experience of what you speak.

1) they can have genetic disorder and still inherit better than average intellectual abilities

2) charity work can be performed without initiation. I respect charity work with an idea to make people's liefe better as a goal. and I am against initiation as a principle

3) and it does not characterize US presidents from a good side. What we know about US presidents of previous 25 years (Bushes, Clinton, Obama) shows us how harmful fraternities are. Same can be said about all American population - the quality of US graduates is quite low now and declining - that's why US depends on foreign students and specialists. may be the one reason is that american students spend time on stupid rituals, initiations, parties, fraternities, alcohol, drugs, sexual life etc?

and foreign students just study hard and get skills.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21567373-american-universities-represent-declining-value-money-their-students-not-what-it

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-shows-dependence-us-graduate-programs-foreign-students

many people believe that members of Yale's Skull & Bones Secret Society seized power in the US and manipulate the whole country. May be it's perfect for the members but it has a devastating effect for the whole US society

same as mafia.

Inherit intelligence from European royal genes? Skull and Bones the same as Mafia? US depends on foreign students? Like Bill Gates? I believe you are a child posting on here so I'll stop conversing with you.

No offense but it is obvious you are an employee not a boss/owner.

and you think general manager should base his employee choice on who have been with him in fraternity, school, uni, kindergarten?

this is called nepotism

company with such personnel policy will not prosper for long. that's why it's hardly prosecuted by any sane board of directors

lol

How do you think they pick the King/Queen of England? She is doing great as far as I can see the money bit. Isn't she the longest reigning and richest and so on.... Then there is Bush sr. and jr. The Kennedy family. Roosevelt family. Most all the wealth in the world is held by rich families. All the oil money?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_families

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_money

fraternities are nothing like families.

at least to be someone's kinsman you don't need to be initiated. you are already a kinsman. in monarchy bad effect of nepotism is counterbalanced by good effect of genes, continuity and independence from ohlos.

in history there were so many rich families and monarchies which lost there wealth and power because negative effects became stronger than good effects

"initiation" is just a ritual - a lie and manipulation in order to convince someone to obey (without no objective reason) the collective and it's self-proclaimed leader(s). to give up personality and free will.

people with weak personalities, who subconsciously wish to give up the responsibility for life choices, are happy to be a part of a collective, a tribe, a gang, which will tell them what to do, how to live and what to believe in.

all mafias, gangs, radical movements and parties, religious sects and cults, fraternities, etc are in constant search of this kind people.

read Erich Fromm's "Escape from Freedom".

1. Good effect of genes? No one is that uniformed. Genes and the house of Windsor? http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/haemophilia.html or Google genetic disorders European Royality.

2. Initiation may involve doing good or charity work. You don't know.

3. Most US Presidents were members of Fraternities.

Read

18 U.S. Presidents Were in College Fraternities

It is obvious you are not a member of a Fraternity or an owner of a business. So, I submit you are talking from the outside looking in - without any actual experience of what you speak.

98% of the traffic is from bangkok autos...sure...and since they live in bangkok that would make them...wait for it....TOURISTS... Seriously you pick some strange things to argue about...it can't even make sense to you...

They get up and drive to Pattaya for lunch and then drive home for dinner. That does not make them tourists. It makes them Thai people eating lunch. A tourist, "a person who travels for pleasure, usually sightseeing and staying in hotels." Only on Thai Visa would one have to define the word tourist.

One has to use accepted definitions of words or communication is impossible. You can't make up your own definitions.

You have never been to Pattaya and are trying to act like an expert. Admit you are in error because you don't have the necessary knowledge to discuss the subject and move on to other areas that you can intelligently converse about.

again what an interesting thing to argue about...claiming I've never been to pattaya...bizarre...I've lived in pattaya for 18 months.

by the way look at the definition of tourist..specifically mentions daytrippers too...

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1441724007.544459.jpg

Give it a break. Pattaya is busy because of customers from Bangkok and has been since the troubles. As time progresses it will get more focused on Thai people and less on tourists.

No one in their right mind would go to the beach , you know who won't develop the airport, and will never fix the sewers so Pattaya will be left to the only people who don't mind open sewers and toxic beaches; Thais and Chinese and sexpats.

This is paranoia-only in Thailand or perhaps North Korea do you see such insecurity!

Fear mongering increases agency usage. There is normally a reason for everything.

Here are some more helpful charts:

Gun ownership by state:

Deaths due to firearm by state:

Sort of seems...logical....and....obvious....doesn't it?

When you have a long border with Canada you need guns. Remember the time they burned the house?

They get up and drive to Pattaya for lunch and then drive home for dinner. That does not make them tourists. It makes them Thai people eating lunch. A tourist, "a person who travels for pleasure, usually sightseeing and staying in hotels." Only on Thai Visa would one have to define the word tourist.

98% of the traffic is from bangkok autos...sure...and since they live in bangkok that would make them...wait for it....TOURISTS... Seriously you pick some strange things to argue about...it can't even make sense to you...

One has to use accepted definitions of words or communication is impossible. You can't make up your own definitions.

You have never been to Pattaya and are trying to act like an expert. Admit you are in error because you don't have the necessary knowledge to discuss the subject and move on to other areas that you can intelligently converse about.

A tourist, "a person who travels for pleasure, usually sightseeing and staying in hotels."

So one who travels to pattaya to have the pleasure to dine at buffet in the Hilton hotel , and later has some sightseeing at walking street, is a tourist

You forgot staying in hotels.

I think ability is the only thing that SHOULD be counted. and civilized humanity must strive for it. by hardly punishing and derision of all kinds of "initiation ceremonies"

No offense but it is obvious you are an employee not a boss/owner.

and you think general manager should base his employee choice on who have been with him in fraternity, school, uni, kindergarten?

this is called nepotism

company with such personnel policy will not prosper for long. that's why it's hardly prosecuted by any sane board of directors

lol

How do you think they pick the King/Queen of England? She is doing great as far as I can see the money bit. Isn't she the longest reigning and richest and so on.... Then there is Bush sr. and jr. The Kennedy family. Roosevelt family. Most all the wealth in the world is held by rich families. All the oil money?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_families

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_money

You have never been to Pattay I take it? Rental cars? Ha ha ha. 98% of the traffic jam is privately owned cars with Bangkok plates. Try again - with some knowledge of Pattaya traffic jams.

98% of the traffic is from bangkok autos...sure...and since they live in bangkok that would make them...wait for it....TOURISTS... Seriously you pick some strange things to argue about...it can't even make sense to you...

They get up and drive to Pattaya for lunch and then drive home for dinner. That does not make them tourists. It makes them Thai people eating lunch. A tourist, "a person who travels for pleasure, usually sightseeing and staying in hotels." Only on Thai Visa would one have to define the word tourist.

One has to use accepted definitions of words or communication is impossible. You can't make up your own definitions.

You have never been to Pattaya and are trying to act like an expert. Admit you are in error because you don't have the necessary knowledge to discuss the subject and move on to other areas that you can intelligently converse about.

I'm not the one who needs to get out more. I drive to work on hwy 36 everyday and can see the housing developments being built. I go all around Naklua and Pattaya on a weekly basis among other places. I go to the skybar's on beach road where you can see the whole skyline. I don't just sit on the beach promenade and complain about lack of shade a free seating.

Yes Pattaya is huge now. It is huge because of tourism. There may be a lot of expats here now, but most of them, including me, started out as tourists. If you take tourism away, the town would die.

I'll prove you wrong in one short paragraph. Do tourists drive cars? No. Does Pattaya have a traffic jam every day and especially holidays and weekends? Yes. Pattaya is jamming because of Thai people from Bangkok and the surrounding areas.

rental cars, baht busses, taxis, motor bikes, tour busses. All modes of transport by tourists. Try again.

You have never been to Pattay I take it? Rental cars? Ha ha ha. 98% of the traffic jam is privately owned cars with Bangkok plates. Try again - with some knowledge of Pattaya traffic jams.

He keeps acting like he represents the people with that slogan "our home country stronger together." These deeply in debt people are unlikely to put the money into the economy, look at what happened in the USA after the financial crisis, banks sat on the funds they were to make available. Best thing he can do for the economy is get rid of its incompetent leader.

As I understand it these deeply in debt people will now go into debt one million baht more with this program. They won't have to pay interest for a couple of years.

No new money will come into the system only old money pushed around a bit. From the rich people to the poor people to use for a couple of years and then the rich people get the money back plus interest. If the poor people have been wise with the money they got for two years interest free they will do well. Of course one has to consider if they were wise why would they be poor?

I'm not the one who needs to get out more. I drive to work on hwy 36 everyday and can see the housing developments being built. I go all around Naklua and Pattaya on a weekly basis among other places. I go to the skybar's on beach road where you can see the whole skyline. I don't just sit on the beach promenade and complain about lack of shade a free seating.

Yes Pattaya is huge now. It is huge because of tourism. There may be a lot of expats here now, but most of them, including me, started out as tourists. If you take tourism away, the town would die.

I'll prove you wrong in one short paragraph. Do tourists drive cars? No. Does Pattaya have a traffic jam every day and especially holidays and weekends? Yes. Pattaya is jamming because of Thai people from Bangkok and the surrounding areas.

TimmyT said, "

1) seniors don't ask who has this "sense of belonging" and who don't. they try to force everybody to obey them. and anybody who does not is a challenge for seniors authority. that's why these initiation rituals are so wrong and harmful for humans - but for apes they are, of course, perfect.

2)does it mean that this "sense of belonging" is useful for somebody to get a job not because he is the best candidate but because of informal "connections"?!

it means that this initiation is even more wrong and counterproductive. society wins when everybody get the job according to his or her merits and abilities but not by connections.

I think you would be more happy in mafia society - there connections are everything and merits and abilities - nothing."

You seem to think I am in favor of this form of hazing. Did my mention of moderation and brains mean nothing to you?

Do you really think only ability counts in this world? If you do, you have a lot to learn.

I think ability is the only thing that SHOULD be counted. and civilized humanity must strive for it. by hardly punishing and derision of all kinds of "initiation ceremonies"

No offense but it is obvious you are an employee not a boss/owner.