Arkady

10 hours ago, khongaeng said:

I guess this is typical.  They announced in 2019 that they would make 10 year passports available.  When I applied for my passport earlier this year, there were only 5 year passports available.

I used to run out of space in my old passport every 3 years due to Thai stamps, and since I won't be getting those anymore, a 10 year passport will definitely be a benefit.

I seem to remember there was some kind of fuss about the tender for producing the new style passports. They changed specs and put it out for tender again after the deadline for the original tender had closed which delayed the whole project by about 18 months.  A company that had competed in the original tender complained bitterly.  It may have been connected to the scandal over the Immigration project for biometrics that Big Joke made a fuss over, as Thai passports obviously had to be compliant with that.

A sorry tale indeed and there are signs that corruption has come back with a vengeance in some sectors with the return of the 80s style 'half baked democracy'.

The OP's problems in getting visas as an investor remind me of problems faced by applicants for PR using the investor route.  At the same time people applying as regular employees were having a much easier time.  Again those applying for PR with Thai wife and kids have a harder time that those without, as Immigration will check kids' DNA and ask for photos of you bouncing on the bed with wife and other ridiculous nonsense.

Returning the case in point I suspect it would have been much easier, if the OP had applied as an employee of the newly acquired company with a Thai director signing all the papers.  I may be wrong but I don't think there are any special provisions in applying for NON-B visas for those who happen to own shares in their companies. Many people do, especially those working for listed companies where they may also be directors.

Re company bank account signatories.  I am not sure if all banks these days require WPs for signatories, although it is possible that they wouldn't allow foreigners on tourist visas to be signatories.  I opened a company many years ago and went to open an account at my branch of Bangkok Bank which refused on the grounds I had no WP.  So I just went over to Kasikornbank and opened the account with no problem. The important thing from them was the copy of the affidavit from the DBD showing I was the company signatory. I operated the account for many years without a WP and Kasikornbank never once asked to see one. I don't know if that is still the case.  I also recall opening an account for a rep office with the CFO of the Hong Kong office as a bank account signatory which I organised without him even being in Thailand.  If not possible to open a bank account without a WP,  getting a Thai to be signatory until you have a WP might be an alternative. It is also possible for company to have a signatory who is neither a director nor an authorised signatory, as long as you have a form signed by the authorised signatory.  In fact I am currently sole bank account signatory at Kasikornbank for a company that I am neither a directory nor authorised signatory. Kasikornbank seems to work best for this kind of stuff and I recommend not touching Bangkok Bank of Siam Commercial for anything involving foreigners that is not absolutely run of the mill. Technically you can get into trouble for acting as an authorised signatory of a company with a WP but I have never heard of anyone charged with that. The only context I have heard of this sort of thing causing problems is when people applied for PR when they were non-executive directors of companies without specific WPs.  But Immigration goes through PR applications with a fine tooth comb looking for things they can take issue with.

In the days when we had to get WPs for rep offices at the Ministry of Commerce I received a request from an official to give her a part time job in exchange for approval for a third work permit which the ministry was allowed to issue at its discretion. On quizzing her it turned out she didn't plan to attend our office or do any work in this position. So I told her I would have to ask approval from the regional HR director for such an unusual addition to the head count and she backed off and we got the third WP anyway.

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

What are the consequences of using our old passports in Thailand, for example registering for a Covid vaccine?

I think it is probably in the very low risk but not nil risk category.  The Intervac registration is MoFA.   I also wondered if they might ask to see the visa.  Luckily I had no need to try, as I am a month away from AZ jab no. 2 and have also booked Moderna as a booster in the private hospitals' lottery caper. If my number comes up, I hope that getting a Moderna booster 2-3 months after 2nd AZ would work and not be harmful.  More research needed on this but I suspect a lot of the people who win the lottery will be in the same situation.  It's hard to imagine Thais who could afford to book Moderna and possibly need connections to be selected not being fully vaccinated by the time it arrives in country, which makes it all the more ridiculous.  But if someone forgoes a shot of Moderna, it will not go to someone needy.  I can see that Thais with the wherewithall to get Moderna boosters this year will also want the Moderna variants booster next year.

39 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

(I understand this question means consequences for those who already got Thai nationality)

 

I would'nt personnally do that, as for any action which involves registering in a Thai database that could potentially come into official hands. I know the risk is perhaps low if what you refer is the possibility to fall into the case of losing Thai nationality, but as for myself I plan to apply this as a golden rule: in Thailand I'm Thai and I will not use my foreign passport for any reason whatsoever. This is just my own personal view on the topic, of course.
I was recently been asked for it for changing some insurance number from foreigner to Thai but I denied and explained "sorry my foreign passport is no longer legal in Thailand, if you need copy of my passport I have Thai passport" which cut the discussion and this was accepted as valid case.

I was asked for my foreign passport at Siam Commercial Bank when they were pretending for a while it wasn't possible to re-register my nationality as Thai.  I told them I no longer had a valid foreign passport.  Actually the truth is that I no longer have a valid Thai passport. It expired and I don't want to travel anywhere overseas while not yet fully vaccinated and it is such a hassle to go anywhere. Luckily I have no compelling reasons to travel at the moment but now I see here that 10 year Thai passports have arrived, I might get around to renewing one of these days.  A 5 year passport is a real PITA, particularly as many countries requires at least 6 months left in it which makes it a 4.5 year passport.  I didn't want to renew and have it sitting unused for half of its useful life waiting for the pandemic to blow over.

Congratulations to all newly minted Thai citizens.

I am not sure of the merit of diverting resources from the rural areas that already have a chronic shortage of doctors but this rural doctors group seems to be very active and has come up with a lot ideas and criticisms of the government.  The group in the picture look very young.  They are probably newly qualified doctors who, if they had government scholarships, would be under an obligation to work in rural hospitals for a number of years which most don't really like to do because they are city people.

4 hours ago, lodstewart said:

first stop should be all the local money lenders

A woman in her 30s was found dead like this suffocated in a plastic bag by the side of the road near the mother-in-law's village.  It turned she was a money lender herself.

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

I believe it is local discount, which to be fair, happens in many countries. For example, I was charged 5,000 baht more in a Melbourne golf course than an Australian friend from another Australian state. 

I don't think it is racial, but xenophobic. It would be racist if I was charged more, due to my colour, when producing my ID card, but I've never heard of this happening. 

Maybe just xenophobic but given the erstwhile dependence on foreign tourism and the bad will it creates with foreign tourists, I don't see it as a very constructive policy for Thai tourism. The sneaky way they do it by putting the Thai prices in Thai numerals also creates more resentment. Thailand also provides no local discount for foreign PRs which many countries that practice dual pricing do.

But anyway we are all citizens or on the way.

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

While I respect his bravery here, it was rather short-sighted when he was thinking of becoming a Thai PR or Citizen.

I didn't know about that story. Interesting.

3 hours ago, david143 said:

the time is applied in the same time he was also critic for Thai Govt officials.
double standard ETC,
it might be a reason for his rejection.

 

I don't remember Richard Barrow being a direct critic of government officials but recall he had trouble renewing his visa soon after he started the 2 Prices Thailand FB page. This could be considered indirect criticism of government policy because government departments such as the Fine Arts Department and the National Parks enthusiastically practice racial discrimination over pricing.  However, the reality is that Barrow's suggestions in this area are intended to benefit Thai tourism long-term by removing an ugly practice which is extremely harmful to the image of Thai tourism and raises insignificant incremental revenue that, in all probability, is largely misused or downright misappropriated. Indeed the head of TAT acknowledged the criticism of dual pricing last year and vowed to do something about it, although he seems to have busy with other things since then.  Avoiding this type of discrimination, even if we have gone to the trouble to get PR, is one of the reasons that we go the extra mile to become citizens, although, I for one, still avoid national parks due to the bitter memories of being overcharged in them as a foreigner.

It has been pointed out that I got Mr Barrow's details wrong when I said he was denied a visa after he was sacked from a university international course that couldn't get students due to COVID, having coincidentally criticised the government in an article.  I was confusing him with David Streckfuss in Khon Kaen, who, I believe, eventually got his visa sorted out.  I apologise to Mr Barrow, if he reads this thread.

5 hours ago, qualtrough said:

Barrow has mentioned that he applied for citizenship but was rejected. I think he didn't meet the salary requirement.

Just because some of us have been more successful doesn't mean it is easy or even possible for others here. There but for the grace of God go I.

I also don't fault him at all for pointing out unfair treatment. 

IMHO he has probably done more to promote Thai tourism that the TAT and private tourism agencies combined. It would be an excellent PR move for the Thai government to bestow an honorary citizenship on him.

I agree.  Nothing against Barrow at all. He was right to point out the ID card anomaly and he does a sterling job providing information and promoting tourism in Thailand.  His reports were also great during the red shirt protests in 2010 and he got himself into some pretty hairy situations to let people know what was going on.  It's a shame about his PR application and the way he was kicked out of his job and harassed over his visa. I am glad he got his visa renewed in the end and hope he can doesn't have problems with it in future.

5 hours ago, qualtrough said:

I was able to register on Mor Prom on day 1 using my pink ID and slave name. Next day they made the 'Thais Only' announcement. But when the time came they honored it.

I helped a couple of guys apply though the Chonburi Mor Prom using pink ID numbers up to 10 days after they announced it was for Thais only and they got their vaccines. They didn't even do the racial discrimination efficiently.  BTW what is a slave name in this context?

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

That guy is on  a crusade to highlight the unfair treatment he gets as a foreigner and wonders why he gets a hard time from Immigration.  He has been working here for 27 years and could easily have become a Citizen, instead of moaning all the time. 

It sounds a bit like sour grapes on Barrow's part. He was teaching some kind of international programme at a university upcountry until they were told to let him go. He may not have ever earned enough to go the PR route to citizenship.  I don't know, if he has a Thai wife. 

But the point is well made  We come across countless farangs who moan a lot about Immigration etc but have passed up the chance to apply for PR and/or citizenship when they could.  I remember lots of people ridiculing my efforts to get PR when that was the only route to citizenship but I have never had any regrets about applying for either.  Meanwhile many of those guys stayed on in Thailand and had so many hassles that they eventually applied for PR or citizenship many years later when applications (PR in particular) had become a lot more difficult.

3 hours ago, heiri007 said:

Since talking about this no. 8, this is interesting:

 

 

I don't know anything about vaccine distribution organised by the mobile phone companies but it would be unconstitutional to discriminate against Thais on grounds of racial origin and it sounds like a screw up by someone. Whoever it was who was not allowed to register should threaten them with a case in the Constitutional Court. May as well through in 112 considering who signed for you to become Thai.

My own experience with vaccine registration was pretty straightforward through Mor (Mai) Prom. The funny thing was that there are two slightly different Mor Prom apps: the original Chonburi Hospital developed one and another version developed later for LINE presumably by the ministry.  I registered on the Chonburi app which was in fact nationwide and it was very easy,  On keying in my ID number it immediately spat out my name in English and suggested an appointment at my local private hospital.  Later I tried to register the mother-in-law on the LINE version and found that the name had to be keyed in in Thai to be spat out again in English. The laser ID number at the back of the ID card also had to be keyed in. It seemed like some thought had gone into how to keep foreigners out when they developed the LINE version which obviously was the one that the vast majority of people downloaded.  The Chonburi people kept sending new versions of their app but never added those nasty racist features. So it was possible for PRs to register pn that one without needing a laser number or being able to key your name in Thai and even non-PR foreigners could register using a pink ID number or social security number.  I helped quite a few people to register and get vaccinated with AZ in the over 60s scheme using the Chonburi app.  I like to think that the Chonburi Hospital developers refused to add the ministry's racist features to the app they designed but who knows.

13 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not correct. See 8 here.

Most Thais I know have first digits 1 or 3.  The prefix 8 is correct.  All naturalised Thais and PRs have that prefix. PRs are issued with their ID number they get their first blue tabian baan as a PR and they retain that number when they become citizens. For the other digits I don't know but it sounds logical.  However, the last 4 digits of my number are the year of my birth in the Thai calendar.  I don't know if that was purely a coincidence or intentional but it does make it easier to remember. I am unaware of any other Thais having that but it could particular to naturalised Thais and PRs, if not just a coincidence.  I have 4 zeros as digits 5 to 8 which also helps memorisation.

Does anyone else have their birth year as the last 4 digits?

38 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Hi Arkady, Boarn mentioned he's 35 and as you said, it means in 4+ years he can secure 5 additional points (compared to applying before). 

Thanks.  That makes it easier for him, if he waits till 40. More time to work on his Thai too.  I think he should be fine.

3 hours ago, Boarn said:

Very interesting topic, I've literally read through the whole thing and still have questions ????

 

Can anyone who has been through the process, or who knows, advise if citizenship is a questions of 1 + 1 = 2, or is there a lot of discretion?

 

Currently I get 25 points for salary (70k married), 5 for age and will need to get my Thai language up to maximum 15 points and by able to answer the questions about Thailand to at least 5 points to scrape the 50 required.

 

I don't have a huge amount of money, basic house in company (genuine company for 5 years) a car and that's about it. Now I will be able to apply in just over 2 years (have made the error over the past 8 years of trusting other companies to my future, having been let go twice, (nice severance pay ???? though) from different companies leading to a start again for the work permit, I now use my own company.

 

When it comes to donations, how do I prove this?

 

So my main question, being of limited but comfortable means, will I have a chance at citizenship and therefore is it worth me putting in the hours to get to fluency in Thai, I find it very, very hard so would be a substantial commitment, that being said I find the letters and writing to be easy.

 

I despise (wish there as a stronger word to use) my country of the UK (hate PC, woke, cancel culture etc) and really want to be able to renounce my British citizenship so I no longer have to feel connected to the absurdity of it all, so I need to know if I will get Thai citizenship by dotting the i's and crossing the t's or should I move somewhere where the process is more black and white. At 35 now, been in Thailand since 18, had the dream of citizenship since then but just sort of coasted along, I'm still British though and hate what the country has become and now realise I need to act fast if Thai citizenship is not a realistic guarantee.

 

Thanks all!

You didn't say if you have only 5 points for age because you are 20-40 or over 60.  If the former, you can wait till you are over 40 and get 10 points for age.

I think you will have to work on your Thai and try get the full 15 points to be sure.  I got the 15 points and it is not that difficult, if you have an intermediate knowledge of Thai, Advanced is not required.  The reading test for me was just read out a few lines from a memo on the officer's desk and writing was writing out the full name and address of the citizenship section at Special Branch.  The reading and writing tests may have got a bit more sophisiticated as I think I was one of the first to request to do them after they were introduced but the standard would be about the same.  Your spoken Thai will be assessed on you conversations with you case officer over several meetings. You need to learn some specialised vocab to do with applying for citizenship which always comes up in conversation, the language tests and the knowledge of Thailand test. Many of these can be found in the Nationality Act which you should read and understand at least in translation as several questions in the Knowledge of Thailand test will likely be based on it.  So you should be able to spell the Thai words for Nationality Act, minister, discretion, Royal Gazette, oath, MoI, SB etc etc.   This will also help you a lot in the meetings and will probably get you the full 5 points for personality too.  It is hard to imagine that they give full points for personality to anyone who can't communicate properly in Thai.  in any event you will find your life in Thailand far more rewarding and easier with an intermediate knowledge of Thai.

Many people can also get full marks or at least 8 out of 10 in the knowledge of Thailand test with adequate preparation.

Re points for residence.  They seem to chop and change on whether they allocate any points to applicants who have had a yellow book for 5 years or more.  Even though the guidelines say yes, I believe they have recently said that only blue books of people with PR count for this.

You ask if they have any flexibility.  The answer in most cases is no.  It's a tick the box system.  You either qualify or you don't and everyone is terrified of being accused of corruption, if another department finds that someone was allowed through without proper qualifications.  The flip side of that is that people who have the bare minimum of qualifications are allowed through without discrimination.  Even though your points are sent to the MoI with your file, there are no good passes or borderline passes.  There is only pass or fail and, as I have said many times here, things that are not on the list, like having Thai children or not having them, don't make any difference to your application, even though your kids are scrutinised and you get the third degree if you don't have any yet.  You will get through fine without them, as I and many others did.  Having big shots as your referees doesn't making any difference either and won't get you through if you are not fully qualified.  Connections might be able help speed things up for you but they have to be extremely high and they need to work the phones after you have applied to have an impact.  They don't need to be your referees.  Having said it is a tick the box system, they do, of course, have flexibility in how they award the points that are subjective, e.g. personality and how strictly they administer the tests.  If the officer likes you and knows you need the points to qualify, they may be lenient, as long as it will not backfire on them, e.g. giving full marks for Thai language for someone who can hardly speak a word.  Timely little gifts like boxes of those ghastly sticky cakes that Thais love to eat for the whole office will help build up a favorable impression that you are someone who is well assimiliated into Thai society.

Good luck with your journey towards Thai citizenship.

13 hours ago, onthemoon said:

Does the category "expert" exist, in addition to the categories "married" and "business"? I think for PR there is such a category if I am not mistaken.

If he was asked to apply for Thai citizenship, as the article says, it might be easier for him, but of course that depends on who asked him. Just thinking.

There is no expert category as such but in Section 11, which is the same section we all applied under, there is a provision that gives exemption from the need to have PR and knowledge of the Thai language, just the same as those married to Thais:

11.1  "has rendered distinguished service to Thailand or has done acts to the benefit of official service, which is deemed suitable by the Minister".

I imagine that any application under this provision has to be pre-approved by the minister and, as such, will be fast tracked.

As a Korean, he will have to give up his Korean nationality.

On 7/25/2021 at 7:13 PM, sinthavee said:

 Yesterday I had shared a VDO of oath taking from “Youtube”. I think all those who will be taking oath this week will have similar wording accept any small changes for Christian oath & also the Nationality approval clause could be different for different persons(married to a thai national/based on PR etc).

Thai transcription (Thanks to my Thai friend) of the VDO is given below for all those who are interested.Oath portion is given within the quotation marks.. You may highlight it & use “ speak” capability of smart phone to listen & practice. If you want to understand the meaning in English, use Google translation.

All the best.

 Neeraman brother, 

You might be interested in this transcript.

 

ข้าพระพุทธเจ้า ราษฎรที่ได้อนุมัติสัญชาติไทย ตามมาตรา 7 ทวิ วรรค 2 ขอให้คำปฏิญาณตนว่า " ข้าพเจ้า จะจงรักภักดี ต่อชาติ ศาสนา และ พระมหากษัตริย์ จะอุทิศตน และเสียสละชีวิต เพื่อปกป้องอธิปไตยของชาติไทย มีความเคารพ และ ปฏิบัติตามหลักกฎหมายและนโยบายของรัฐบาลไทย จะประกอบอาชีพโดยสุจริต ช่วยเหลือแบ่งปันแก่เพื่อนมนุษย์ จะดำรงตนตามหลักครรลองครองธรรม และยึดหลักการดำเนินชีวิตอย่างพอเพียง จะไม่ยุ่งเกี่ยวกับยาเสพติด และสิ่งผิดกฎหมาย ทุกอย่างโดยเด็ดขาด จะช่วยเหลืองานราชการ ช่วยเหลือสังคมและชุมชน เต็มกำลังความสามารถ จะประพฤติตนเป็นคนดีตามหลักคำสอนศาสนา และตามแนวทางพระบรมราโชวาทตลอดไป"

Well done for finding the video and transcribing it. I am sure that is very similar to the one we do at SB.  It's great to be able to go through it beforehand to feel confident of doing it without stumbling.  I looked for the wording before my oath but couldn't find anything.

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

I couldn't find it. Just repeat words after the SB officer. There were some long words I didn't know and just mumbled them, no biggie. 

I mumbled it but was made to repeat some because the officer didn't feel I had articulated it clearly enough.  I think I asked him to read it out a bit slower because he was gabbling it too fast for me to follow. I tried to get the text beforehand to practice but they wouldn't send it, as they said it was very easy and nothing to worry about. They give you a choice of 3 different oaths: Buddhist, Christian or Muslim.  Mrs Arkady immediately replied without a moment's hesitation that I wanted the Buddhist one and I accepted that, as it made no difference to me, even though I am not a Buddhist.  I think they are very similar with only a few words changed anyway. No provision is made for people of other religions or atheists and agnostics.  

On 7/15/2021 at 5:39 PM, themike1080 said:

If I start my job in August, would the tax submitted for that year count? Or does it have to meet a minimum for applying via Thai spouse?

You need three years' of tax receipts.  I am not sure if it would count in the sense you mean. So if you apply in September after working for exactly three full years, you would technicallly be qualified but your tax receipt for the first year would only be for five months and you would not be able to get a certified tax receipt Jan-Aug in the year you applied to make three full years of tax receipts. This is the sort of question that can only be answered with any degree of certainty by SB.  I think it more likely that they would say they want three full years.  However, they look most closely at the last year's tax receipt and compare it with your salary letter to check they are consistent, which according to their logic means that the monthly salary in the letter should be exactly 1/12th of the income you paid tax on the year before.  (I had to get my letter redone as my salary had changed.)  So I think it would worth a try. 

If you go to see them in Bangkok, take all your documents with you and note the name and line ID of the officer you talk to, as they like to handle the applications when enquiries are converted to applications. If you ready to apply, you just contact that officer (unless you really didn't like them) to ask if they are still working there and if it is OK to come to start your application.  I didn't understand this system and just plonked myself down in front of the first desk I came to when I was ready to apply.  This caused problems because the officer I had talked to two years earlier remembered me and was upset that I didn't go to him  I didn't imagine they would remember people like that.  Luckily I got to deal with him for a while later when my officer was transferred to Immigration for a stint and we became friends.

7 hours ago, yankee99 said:

I didnt need a physical salary slip but my tax returns needed the minimum amount and had to be certified 

That's right. They only verify salary from your salary letter and certified tax receipts.  They don't look at pay slips or check the money coming into your account like the nasty farang embassies do with Thais applying for visas or Thai banks do when applying for credit cards. 

I wouldn't say it is absolutely not worth FarangFB applying, if he has the time and inclination and accepts that his case is not without certain weak points to be overcome. If he has all the required documents, it is not a fraud but they are entitled to reject, if they don't like something because it is legally up to the minister's discretion.

5 hours ago, sas_cars said:

suspicion plus if possible, milking of foreigners as much as possible. lol.

The worst that ever happened to me with Immigration was that I was forced to pay around B40k in tax when I applied for my first NON-B to get a WP.  They saw from my passport that I had made a number of trips to Thailand, about one a month for a few days each for about a year, as I was in HK and could hop over, and they accused me of working illegally in Thailand and made an arbitrary assessment of what they thought my salary might be and charged me tax on it on the spot. The calculation was made in about 5 minutes on the back of an envelope.  When I objected that I had not been in Thailand for 180 days in the tax year and that I had paid tax on my overseas salary and the UK and Thailand had a double tax treaty, they just said made some threatening comments about how I could go and argue the case with the Revenue Dept, if I might end up criminally prosecuted by the Labour Ministry for working without WP, and have to pay anyway without getting the NON-B and WP.  I did get a receipt but in retrospect I thought it was a scam, as I am sure they have no authority to make arbitrary assessments of tax on behalf of the Revenue Dept and collect it too.  Plus they had absolutely no evidence other than my visits to Thailand.  I wanted to take it up with a lawyer but my office manager advised paying and moving on, as we were setting up an office and hiring staff and didn't need this type of hassle.  Luckily I had a receipt, even though it was probably bogus as far as the Revenue Dept was concerned and my boss was sympathetic and allowed me to claim it as an expense from the company.  B40K was a lot of money in those days at 25 to the $.

I was shaken by that experience of gangster type extortion in plain sight in the Immigration office at Soi Suan Plu and it made me for ever wary of them.  I guess they knew I was new to Thailand and thought it worth a try that could easily be denied as a misunderstanding, if I complained, or that my signed acknowledgement was tantamount to a confession of working with WP or something that would get me into trouble, if I did complain.

Sadly I hear some stories that suggest things have not been improving under the current government.