Keith5588

For this post I would like to understand the situation if I bought a house and also bought a 30 year lease of the land from a Thai National. Also assume that house prices do not change.

Lets say the house is 6 Million baht but that includes 2 Million baht for leasing the land for 30 years. So 4 Million for the house + 2 Million for the land lease. 

1. When a house is advertised at 6 Million baht lease hold is that price usually the total price that includes the house and the lease of the land for 30 years?

2. I assume that after 30 years if the Thai owner of the land would not renew the land lease for another 30 years then that Thai person would own the land and everything on it. They would own the land and the house and the foreigner would own nothing. Is this correct?

3. Assume I wish to sell the house after 20 years what is the situation?  Would the house + the remaining 10 years land lease be worth just 2 Million?    

But if the new owner could form a new 30 year land lease for 2 Million baht with the Thai land owner then the house would be worth the original 4 Million?

Thanks in advance for any help

Keith

On 11/27/2022 at 1:07 AM, BritTim said:

For reference, the Thai embassy in Yangon is friendly and not busy.  See Yangon Types of Visa (note this is two pages) and Yangon Non O visa (retirement) application. Flights on Air Asia are currently cheap, Myanmar visa required: https://evisa.moip.gov.mm/ (US$50). Hotel prices reasonable.

Very good information Tim, I see they have the Non Imm O Visa Retirement. I had a quick look at gov.uk foreign travel advice for curiousity and it advises not to go to Myanmar except for Yangon region. So OK to go there but I currently live in Hua Hin so would be best for me to fly and I would prefer to have a weeks holiday in Kuala Lumpur, no visa requirements for me, and I think more relaxing.

Thanks again for the information 

4 hours ago, zzzzz said:

you can get a single non O in Phnom Pehn but need show 800,000 in any currency in any bank 

left PP last Thursday and for air asia had to show onward flight which i had via the link above
entered on visa exempt and will convert too O

Thanks zzzzz, good information.

12 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

OP, the onward ticket you refer to if flying visa exempt into Thailand has a simple solution..

Google "onwardflight.com" 

IMO best to enter visa exempt and obtain a non O in Thailand. 

For the airline anything other than onward flight will not cut it.

Irrelevant if someone lives here, owns a condo or whatever. 

Thanks Jack, if I found that obtaining a Non O in Kuala Lumpur seemed very straight forward I might have considered going straight to the Thai Consulate there. Of course if a problem then can always return visa exempt. 

At the moment I think you are right and visa exempt is the best way.

If I do that at the moment I will put it to the test in that I will take proof that I live in Thailand, maybe politely ask to see a supervisor at check in if they are not busy.  If they insist I can purchase a throw away flight for near the end of my visa exempt permit to stay.

Cheers

Keith

16 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I have seen no recent reports of them issuing a non-o visa for retirement

I suggest you contact the consulate in Penang about the non-o visa.

It seems their website is incomplete since all those shown on the list takes you to the main page of the website when you click the link.

For the embassy in Kuala Lumpur it appears they may be only issuing them for citizens or residents Myanmar. I suggest you contact them as well.

 

Thanks Joe, I have definitely seen posts on here stating that the Non O can be obtained in Penang, in fact if my memory is correct someone obtained a multi entry Non O in Penang. But these were probably about 2 or 3 years ago. Also I have seen stated on here that Penang requirements are the same as Savannakhet in that medical and police checks not needed.

I posted because I had not looked at the Thai Embassy / consulate sites before and wondered if I was doing something wrong.

I don't need to change my O-A to an O until May next year and as requirements may change I will either contact the Thai consulates near the time or more likely speak to my local immigration office and then come in visa exempt.

Cheers

Keith

As I do not want to purchase health insurance next year I will try to change my Non Imm O-A to a  Non Imm O.

I have read a lot of helpful information on here and I may choose to return to Thailand Visa Exempt but I thought I would consider applying for a  Non Imm O abroad.

I think there is a small possible inconvenience of needing proof of onward travel if flying into Thailand visa exempt. In that case I would first show proof that I actually live in Thailand at check in. Hopefully they would show common sense but I would also be prepared to purchase a throw away air flight.

My first thoughts were that myself and my Thai gf would fly to Kuala Lumpur for 1 weeks holiday so I looked at the Thai Embassy in Kuala Lumpur

https://kualalumpur.thaiembassy.org/en/publicservice/visa-requirements-i-3 

It lists all visas and one is 

NON-IMMIGRANT VISA (O-Retirement)

Required Documents include police cert and medical cert so I thought I would have a look at Penang.

https://penang.thaiembassy.org/th/publicservice/114490-visa-requirements-ii 

I have never looked at this before but it is a bit concerning that Non Imm O Retirement is not listed?

Anyone know if Penang has stopped issuing  Non Imm O Retirement visa’s?

24 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

You will all most certainly require onward flight with AirAsia.

You can purchase throw away ticket approx 1500b 

Or purchase "rent a ticket" from companies such as "onward flight.com" .

 

Note that the living in Thailand owning this and that has  nothing to do with onward flight requirement from Airline for visa exempt entry. 

 

Thanks Jack, I did suspect I would need an onward flight even though I think it illogical as I live in Thailand.

Cheers

Keith

Hi, I am from the UK. 5 years ago I obtained a Non Imm O-A visa just before travelling to Thailand.

Because of some very helpful people of this site (it was then Thai Visa) I knew what best to do. Myself and my Thai girlfriend had a holiday in Vietnam just before the Enter Before date on my visa.

Concerning health insurance I decided to self insure.

I have more than 800,000 baht a Thai bank account.

I obtained my first 1 year extension based on retirement at a cost of 1,900B

The changing of the rules then started to affect me in that I needed health insurance for further 1 year extensions.

I had planned to change to a Non Imm O visa but Covid put that on hold. 

So 3 times I have had to buy almost worthless Thai approved health insurance for 7,700 baht per year.

In May 2023 I will have to pay a lot more for health insurance but the borders are open ….. Yippee ……  It is now time to convert to a Non Imm O visa!  A good excuse for a holiday!

I now live in Hua Hin and my plan is fly to Kular Lumpar to have a short holiday, then return with a 30 or 45 day visa exemption, then go to Hua Hin immigration to obtain a Non Imm O visa. They have already said that they can do that.

I have one question concerning proof of onward travel.

I have been living in Thailand for 5 years, I rent a condo in Hua Hin and have the rental contract. I own a car and a motorbike in Thailand and have Thai driving licences.

I will be buying return Air Asia tickets for my Thai gf and myself Bangkok to Kuala Lumpur for 1 week.

Because I will be entering Thailand with a visa exempt stamp, in my situation would I really need to purchase another flight out of Thailand that I would obviously not use?

Thanks in advance

Keith

1 hour ago, Mickeymaus said:

You want that they use your ATM card to withdraw money from your accounts when you are dead? I think this is not a good idea since legally they are not the owners (yet). 

@Mickeymaus  I think you are right and it could cause suspicion. It is best to do everything correctly and legally, no reason to not to.  I will have a look at the notes I printed for my girlfriend and make a correction if necessary.  I will make a note in "Google Keep", I now use that regularly as I find it now more easy to forget.
Thanks

Keith

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

As maybe a point of interest, my own Will was written in 1983 by the Air Force JAG office in the Pentagon (thus it looks nice and official, which the Thais love). Since it says I leave everything to my wife, period (same Thai wife as today), it's about as simple as you can get. So, I'm satisfied that it would suffice here in Thailand (since foreign Wills are acceptable, if properly witnessed, which it is) should it (and its translated version) need to go through probate.

 

But I doubt it will need probate, as all my assets subject to probate are bank accounts. And one is joint with the wife, and the other one (my immigration related account) has the wife as the co-signatory. So the wife has been advised that her first order of business, even before I am barbecued, is to go online and move most of the money from my account to hers -- and also most of the money from out joint account to hers (as there are reports that some bank managers believe half a joint account is subject to probate; wrong, but the manager's belief would prove inconvenient, if she froze the account). No need to close the accounts, as that might require my presence -- so just leaving a few thousand baht should suffice.

 

Several threads (search "asean now wills") on the legality of the above, particularly the co-signatory's authority when the primary is dead. So, I don't want to reinvent the wheel on this thread. But my take is: Who's going to complain, if your Will leaves everything to your wife (or partner) and there's no one contesting your assets? Plus, why would the bank even know you're dead (?), and thus they would have no reason to freeze your accounts. And, if they don't freeze your account, 'cause you're dead but no one told them, they have no legal issues to confront. And if there is no wronged party, who's pressing charges?

 

So, yeah, good to have a Will, should probate be necessary. But if all you have subject to probate are bank accounts -- consider briefing the wife on the above.

@JimGant  Thanks again for good solid information and advice.

Just before I wrote my Wills I read on the internet that a farang died but had no Will. All his assets went to his family in his home country. His girlfriend / partner of many years, who looked after him for many years especially his last few years had to pay for the funeral but received nothing.
I therefore visited the bank to have her open a Fixed account which I then transferred 400,000 baht into.  Then I wrote the Wills.
My Wills are also very simple except my bank accounts are in my name and I also have a car and Scooter in my name.
I did also write and printed a page of instructions. I did mention to use my ATM card to withdraw as much as possible and gave my PIN. I also stated a Lawyer for her to contact. I now realise that a Lawyer may not be necessary if no probate is needed but I think it is well worth the few thousand baht to take the legal worry away from my girlfriend and to make sure things are done correctly if I am not around. They may even give further advice (on top of what I wrote) on how best to proceed with my UK Will.

Anyway I feel very healthy at 69 years old so hopefully my Wills will not be needed for many years. Hopefully you are healthy too
Cheers
Keith
 

@JimGant   and  @Liverpool Lou  
Thank you both so much.
I started this post because someone said very positively that my Thai Will needs to be in Thai language, similar to some people posting here.
It made no sense to me that MY WILL needs to be written in a language I do not understand. I would not sign a Will I do not understand and so it would be worthless. As said any Will can be translated later if the Thai court needs that to be done.

You have both confirmed what I previously concluded and also given me extra information and good links.

I think a lot is common sense. I spent a lot of time making sure that both Wills (Thai and UK) were very clear and concise. At first my Will fitted on 2 pages, I was going to sign and have witnessed each page, but in the end after playing with font sizes etc. managed to fit each Will on 1 page. That was the extent I went to just to make sure.
The only problem was some people recently saying very positively that my Thai Will needs to be in Thai language which made no sense to me.
I guess the reason is that all Legal Services and Lawyers in Thailand are mostly Thai people. They probably write their Will template in Thai language and then translate to English (they may or may not offer a translation to a different language other than English). So they already have their Will templates in Thai Language and in English language. So very little work to give you both.
I have never been to any Legal Services or Lawyers in Thailand to have my Will done but I guess that I would only sign the English written one.

I didn't write my own Wills to save money. If possible I like to understand and have control over my affairs. It is the same with dealing with immigration, I have always made sure that I understand and so have never used an agent or paid any "tea money". Even for my yearly 1 year extension based on retirement I have always been in and out in less than 1 hour.
Sorry now I am going off topic.

Thank you both again for your very good help.
Keith

3 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Actually, you could, as long as it is signed and witnessed correctly.  A will is just a piece of paper with words written on it, and signed and witnessed.

I thought exactly the same as you @Liverpool Lou thank you. And thank you for your other sensible and helpful comments. 

On 10/2/2022 at 11:29 AM, JimGant said:

Wrong. The legal document can be the English version, with a copy needed in Thai to process thru the Thai court system. A Google search will make this clear.

 

OP, you're good to go. Don't know what your assets are, but maybe, even if bank accounts, will not have to go thru probate thus no need to get an up-front Thai translation. Even if you had a single Will, written in the UK, that says something like, I leave all my worldwide assets to blah blah -- it, as a foreign Will, would be acceptable in Thailand:

 

 

@JimGant You seem like a very intelligent helpful person, thank you very much.  Unfortunately Thailand does like to have lot's of paperwork and a few weeks ago I did sign bank forms written in Thai while inside a main bank while opening new bank accounts. But when it is something important like your own Will that you have total control of I am amazed that some people think that it best to sign the Will that is written in a language that they do not understand? 
Soon after I posted on here I received the strange comments so I also posted elsewhere. There I received good advice as I have from you. Some comments were from a Lawyer (not a Lawyer in a private company looking for work) and they said exactly as you in that later a Thai court can have my Will translated into Thai or request that it is done, if they wish.  It's common sense really and what I originally thought.
Thanks also for your other comment about can have just the one Will, that makes sense. I did spend quite a lot of time 2 years ago forming the Wills, condensing them to just the one A4 page each. My UK Will clearly states it is only for my UK assets. I also mentioned that I have a separate Will for my Thai assets.  My Thai Will states similar. I am now happy again that they are good.
Thanks again Jim

11 minutes ago, arithai12 said:

It all depends on the compromise you want to accept, between making it easy and fast for you now, or making it easy and fast for your gf to benefit after your demise.

Thank you @arithai12 .   

My Thai Will is in English language, the only language that I understand. I would not sign it if it was written in Thai language.

I can understand you doing so because you were very confident that the Thai translation was correct.

If I died my girlfriend will take my Will to a Lawyer in Thailand to help process the probate at a Thai court.   At this point why can't my Will be officially translated into Thai language for the court if necessary?

Why can't this all be done while living in Thailand?

This is what I am having a lot of trouble understanding.

10 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Whoever does your translation into Thai must be prepared to make any changes required by MOFA before they agree to sign off. And they will require changes, sometimes two or three iterations, depending on which office you use. MOFA are regarded as THE authority on translation into Thai.

Thanks again @nigelforbes My Thai Will is in English language with very clear instructions etc.  I started this post because someone put doubt in my mind and so I was prepared to have my Wills checked by a Lawyer.  I now feel again that I have done things correctly. I believe that no Thai translation needs to be done until just before it is presented at a Thai court before probate.  I have left details of a Lawyer for my girlfriend to contact, then my girlfriend can have the translation done as you describe or what the Lawyer or court says it needs. 

On 9/27/2022 at 7:35 AM, nigelforbes said:

Your Will in Thailand should be written in your native language and then translated (by a third party) and certified by MOFA (Ministry of Foreign Affairs). As a non Thai you cannot be expected to be fluent in Thai and to have understood and agreed with a document written in a foreign language, the will can potentially be challenged on that basis. The cost to translate a one page will shouldn't be more than about 500 baht or so, the MOFA charge is very similar.

Thank you @nigelforbes

11 minutes ago, Farmerslife said:

For a will to be legally binding your signing of the document needs to be done in the presence of two witnesses who will also be required to sign the document. (Incidentally, these witnesses cannot be beneficiaries.) 

 You could not have a version, notarised or not, that was produced after your death. It would be impossible to confirm whether the document was genuine or not.    

Thank you @Farmerslife but please read my original post. I stated that I wrote the Wills and then signed then in front of witnesses who then signed the Wills.  They are not beneficiaries, I was aware of that.

Without going into too much detail I think I made very good clear Wills, including my gf's ID, her registered address in her village where she owns a house etc.  etc.

These Wills where written and signed by me and 2 witnesses almost 2 years ago. 

The UK Will I am happy with.

The Thai Will is in English language only.

13 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Imagine a Thai person would live in the UK and write a will in Thai language. And then the person dies and someone official should read the will. Do you think that official will be able to read Thai?

qed

I agree not many people in the UK would be able to read Thai.  My thoughts are that if this Thai male in the UK dies then his English girlfriend should be able to take his Will to be officially translated into English and notarised then that official translation should be accepted by the UK court. 

I think it would be unfair to the Thai male living in the UK who cannot read any English to sign an English written Will that he does not understand.

I really am missing something?

14 minutes ago, Farmerslife said:

For a will to be legally enforceable in Thailand it must be written in Thai. You can have a copy in English but the legal document is the Thai language version. A reputable law firm will draw up copies in both languages.

 

If you were concerned that the Thai version might not accurately reflect your wishes you could have it translated by an independent company before signing the will.

Thank you @Farmerslife I will make more enquiries. I still do not understand, it is my Will and I need to fully understand it. If I die my girlfriend knows where to find the Thai Will written in English. She could then go to a lawyer and have it legally translated and notarised if necessary. You have confirmed what I have previously read.

Hi,
I am from the UK. Can a Last Will & Testament for all my assets that I have in Thailand be written in English only with no Thai language copy?
This has been on my mind for a while as I have read a few times that it needs a copy in Thai language as well as English but to me that does not make any sense. I cannot read Thai, how can I possibly sign something that I do not understand?
After I die then my Will can be translated if required.
Any help much appreciated.

A little explanation.
My Thai girlfriend and myself have been living together in Thailand for the past 5 years.
During the Covid lockdown nearly 2 years ago I researched on the internet then wrote 2 Wills myself, one for all my Thai assets and another separate Will for all my UK assets.
I have no children and I have never been married, no dependents, my parents have die, so basically no family. My Thai girlfriends children are grow up. My assets in both countries are very simply described.
I am confident that I wrote very clear Wills in English language, in both stating my girlfriend as executor and also leaving everything to her. I signed both Wills in the presence of witnesses who then signed.

Thank you
Keith

7 minutes ago, blackcab said:

A couple of points... with a life usufruct you may be worth more dead than alive. I say that in jest of course. 

 

Secondly, if you were thinking of putting the land in your partner's children's name then this will not work for you until they are 20.

 

You can of course put the land in their name, however land in a minor child's name cannot be encumbered without permission of the Court. What this means is that a child or the child's guardian cannot grant you a usufruct on the land. This is because you can not give a minor child an obligation.

Thanks again, good points. I didn't say but I am 69 years of age and my Thai gf 56. Luckily we are still both very healthy. Her children have their own lives and are over 20. So good facts but would not apply to me. I would want everything to be left to my gf if I die.

47 minutes ago, blackcab said:

The first thing to understand is that title to the structure of the house and title to the land are normally the same thing. This is because when you own chanote-titled land in Thailand you own everything on it. This is the same in many countries. There is very little freehold/leasehold of houses and land in Thailand, although it can be done.

 

If a piece of land has an existing house or structure on it then it is going to be difficult to split the title for the structure away from the title of the land. If, however, you build a house or structure from new then there is much more chance of separating the title.

 

However, even if you build a new house you still need the land owner's permission to put your newly built property on their land, so you end up in the position of needing a lease or a usufruct.

 

A residential lease can be for a maximum of 30 years. After this period you have no rights to an extension unless the land owner agrees. A lessor can give a lessee a contract of any length or duration, however a residential contract longer than 30 years will not be valid if anyone tries to enforce it in Court. This is because a contract, even if entered into willingly by both parties, cannot supercede statute law.

 

What happens after 30 years? If your lease is for 30 years then you either leave the property under the terms of the lease, or you try to renegotiate a further lease. A new lease will of course involve payment of further sums of money. Another way of viewing a lease is paying all of your rent in advance in one go.

 

If you have a contract for a 30+30 year lease then if the owner of the land is content you can just keep living on the land. However if the land owner wants you to vacate then things could get a little messy as ultimately the law will be on the land owners side. Consider that the original owner may sell the land to another party before the 30 years has expired, or more commonly, the original lessor dies and their beneficiaries now own the land. The beneficiaries may wish to sell the land at full market value, which would mean they would not agree to another lease, or that they would not honour the original 30+30 year contract. In Thai law, they are certainly not bound to honour the +30 part of the contract.

 

Another option is to have a usufruct for the duration of your life over the land and everything on the land including any buildings. With a usufruct for life you have the right to occupy, improve and use the land in a non-destructive way until you die. Understand though that with a usufruct you do not own the land. The land will have to belong to someone else, and when you die the encumbrance will be removed and the owner can take possession of the land and anything on it.

 

A third way is to own the land through a limited company. This option has downsides and upsides. It can work well, or if you involve the wrong people you can lose everything. Buyer beware with this one.

 

Thanks a lot Blackcab, your explanation is very good. As you write it would be equivalent to paying 30 years rent upfront. 

I have been with my Thai gf for 5 years and I trust her but I would like to continue to rent for at least a few more years.

I really do not like leasing and much prefer freehold. So at the moment I am thinking after a few more years then have my gf buy the house and land freehold. Also for her to enter into a Usufruct contract with me giving me the right to live there until I die.

Basically the land and house would eventually go to my gf or her children which is what I would want.

Thanks again

Keith 

6 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

It does, and incurs registration, fees, and voting issues.  Many of the companies have been found to be nothing more than a shell and folks have lost out.  

 

As far as a leasehold the first 30 years is golden, the second 30 can be done if agreed upon with no issues

 

https://www.thailand-realestate.com/thailand-property/leasehold

The Leasehold system is defined as a system of property tenure where a person, by paying a fixed sum, acquires the right to occupy a particular land or building for a given period of time. Since Thai law prohibits foreigners from owning land within the country, leasehold has become a very popular alternative to direct ownership. Furthermore, Thai law limits the period of any lease agreement to thirty years only and any excess period will be reduced. The following features of leasehold have made it one of the most popular forms of property tenure: first, leasehold is a relatively stable arrangement as lease periods usually last for years sometimes even decades and second, both then lessor and the lessee share responsibility for the damages incurred on the property unless the law designates a specific party liable. Nonetheless, leasehold is still limited compared to that of absolute ownership. Mere possession is conferred in favor of the tenant.

 

https://www.thailand-property.com/blog/thailand-leasehold-property-ever-makes-sense-lease

Alternatively, Thailand leasehold property can be a much easier and straightforward arrangement for foreigners wishing to acquire a villa or house. Leases are good for 30 years and can be renewed as long as both parties agree. More importantly, the lease remains valid until its stated duration regardless of if the land is sold or something else unforeseen occurs.

Thanks.

So at the end of the 30 year land lease assuming that the Thai land owner does not wish to enter into another 30 year land lease.

What is the position of the foreigner?

He cannot remain occupying the land so I assume that he has to leave his house?

If on very bad terms with the Thai land owner and no agreement can be made the foreigner could demolish his house. It would be a drastic thing to do and with no gain for himself.

So basically at the end of the first 30 year land lease if it is not renewed then the foreigner also loses the house? 

9 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

After the first 30 year Leasehold is up another 30 year leasehold is available for you, of course there is the cost of the leasehold needing to be paid for the first 30 year leasehold when you buy the residence and then the amount paid again for the 2nd 30 years, which might be an increase.  You might also need to pay Monthly CAMO fees or twice a year CAMO fees.

Thanks but I read that another 30 year lease is not guaranteed?

I also know someone who took a 30 year land lease about 15 years ago. The Thai land owner wants him gone so I do not think another 30 year lease will be offered.