Morch

You assume things regarding the outcome. It is not decided that the IDF will oust the Hamas. It is not decided that the IDF will control the Gaza Strip. And considering your posts, it is not clear what 'independent' stands for.

I think it's a pretty sure bet both of you will stay put, regardless of what happens. After all, this would create too many new opportunities for complaints etc. - would be a shame to miss out, wouldn't it?

I think this topic might be the short version....

If you say so.....not like you're going to try and make your point by providing anything that actually supports it.

Yeah...what a loser, eh? William Heinecke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Heinecke

Unless you consider armies in general to be 'extremist' not sure what you're on about. The IDF is a national army (and one heavily relying on reserve duty personnel) - as such, you'll find a whole range of political views among soldiers. I get that you wanted to make a 'balanced' argument, but it's still wrong. And no, not 15,000 innocent dead people. This figure would include Hamas men killed as well.

Richard Falk says a whole lot of things on related matters, mostly anti-Israeli stuff, sometimes in the extreme. This is not very surprising as it seems like q prerequisite as far as the Special Rapporteur for Palestinian Territories job goes. It was also part of my previous post referenced above - most of the positions associated with issues of human rights are (naturally?) filled by people holding similar views, and often similar politics. Toss in the way UN bodies are being governed, and there you go. It has come to the level that if such a person makes a balanced comment (see ICC's Khan statements regarding war crimes in this war), he is seem as 'biased' toward Israel.

@thaibeachlovers so many errors in that propaganda piece That would nicely sum the bulk of your posts on international topics here.

@thaibeachlovers Sure. Boycott. BDS. How long this been going on? What actual effect did it achieve? Not much, other than directly serving Israel's right-wing elements. Every topic like this it gets pulled out, aired, and much hopes invested that 'this time...' - yeah, well.

@thaibeachlovers I don't know that 'most' countries strongly object to the veto system, other than in cases where it runs against their national interest. Your further claim that 'mos' countries consider it an 'atrocity' is nonsense. I don't think that there are even many references to the veto right as such. More of your fact free, fantasy stuff there. Countries can act separately of the UN. Nothing new there. As for your 'comparison' - you would, maybe, have a point had Ukraine carried out a massive terrorist attack on Russian civilians, killing and raping many of them - thus starting a war. Since this did not happen over there, but did happen on 7/10 - yet another nothing comment from a Putin fan/Israel hater.

Israel pounds ‘250 Gaza targets in a day’ as UN chief warns order may break down https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/07/israel-pounds-250-gaza-targets-in-a-day-as-un-chief-warns-order-may-break-down That's the article for the OP. I doubt the entire area of Rafah was declared a safe zone, but could be wrong. Previous reports citing similar allegations proved somewhat less conclusive than suggested. Then there's this report: IDF says Hamas firing rockets from Gaza safe zones as civilian scramble for shelter https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-hamas-firing-rockets-from-gaza-safe-zones-as-civilian-scramble-for-shelter/ Suggesting Hamas launches rockets from 'safe zones' (I think not too hard to verify given existing radar coverage), and also rockets misfiring and exploding (as in the infamous hospital incident).

Allow me to disregard your campaign trail comments - they are irrelevant to what I posted. That there is some plan like this shelved somewhere in the Pentagon, is almost beyond doubt. Much smaller and weaker countries, with lesser reach engaged in such planning, so doubtful the main superpower does not have some as well. This would have little to do with which President seats in the White House, more a military process. POTUS's role is on the decision and policy making, not the planning itself. What you're sure off is not demonstrated, same goes for the USA being 'played', or even that there's a larger play involved.

I have posted something along these lines (if less strongly, vehemently) when previously discussing human rights organizations in the Gaza Strip. People sometimes fail to realize that UN organizations/forces, human rights organizations, foreign NGO's, investigation committees and so on - rely on local work force, both for everyday stuff and to fill numerous lower-mid level positions 'on the ground'. While there is some nominal screening, it is obviously neither very serious for most positions, nor intended to be otherwise. Can't alienate the bulk of your workers. To a lesser degree, this applies also to the West Bank (and really, almost every relevant zone in the world).

@thaibeachlovers You seem to be stuck in the past. There are long standing peace agreements between Israel and two of it's neighbors (Egypt, Jordan). Other Arab countries in the ME have (official and otherwise) relations with Israel as well. Hollow comments about 'we-don't-know' and 'closed-doors' followed by an assumption based on your biased take is not much to go on. There are actually quite a lot of reports about Saudi Arabia signalling normalization of relations with Israel will be back on track sometimes post-war, unflattering comments about Abbas's role, and very little outright support for Hamas. All of these have been discussed and linked on these topics before. Guess you weren't aware as not on AJ and what with your 'ignore' fetish. Egypt and Qatar did not 'obtain' anything in the way you imply. The pause in the fighting was the product of indirect negotiations between Hamas and Israel, mediated by third-parties (mostly Qatar). It's not surprising someone who's a Putin cheer-leader would see Arafat in a favorable way.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1313412-un-warns-of-‘blatant-disregard-for-basic-humanity’-in-gaza-warfare/page/16/#comment-18537155

While I'm sure that the USA got some draft of a plan to 'conquer' Iran somewhere in the Pentagon, I kinda doubt anyone got half an intention of applying it. Never mind the actual details involved - there's no justification to do it anyway.

No, it is more about you trying to force a definition on the situation. You seem not to grasp how dysfunctional the current Israeli government is. That you assume some coherent plan, some wide collusion of or agreement regarding what you describe - that's not on. The same was happening before 7/10, and the same is happening now - just that with focus being on the Gaza Strip, there's less to hold back things in the West Bank. Netanyahu doesn't dare challenge his coalition partners fearing his own future, that's all there is to it. You implying that there's a wider, calculated move at hand is nonsense.

You could say the same about most such attempts. As initial offers go, I think it was a fair one - and that Israel made a mistake not taking the chance. As I recall, the Palestinian side did not 'immediately embrace' the initiative, more like cajoled and coerced (as usual). The Hamas 'responded' by carrying out one of it's major bombing attacks.

There are no major IDF operations in the West Bank, no battles, no rockets. There's the usual stuff in higher intensity - I think that partially have to do with the situation heated over the Hamas attack and IDF offensive in the Gaza Strip, compounded by IDF units moved to the Gaza Strip and the settlers (plus political allies/backers) using the 'opportunity'. It's wrong and vile, but it ain't no offensive, and certainly not part of the IDF offensive. If anything the issue of settler violence is one topic of contention in government and war cabinet - especially as far as the Minister of Defense and the newly joined Centrist representatives are concerned. To head off expected comments - their focus is more about this being detrimental to Israel's more pressing issues in the Gaza Strip and vs. Hamas.

As 'observant' covers a lot of ground, it depends. In Israel, Orthodox/Ultra orthodox Jews are mostly (at least nominally) non-Zionist. They still have ID's, vote, and political parties representing them are pretty much a constant feature in most coalitions (including the current one). While they may ideology object to Zionism, de-facto they are supportive of the elements convenient to or serving them. In broad terms, they are more right-wing leaning. Some of the more extreme factions are anti-Zionists (and indeed identify with Hamas, Iran and so on) - these try to minimize all official contact/recognition of the state, and generally do not partake in the political arena. As for observant Jews which are of other groups, these are generally Zionists. In Hebrew, Zion is a synonym for Jerusalem, so it may feature in prayers, without necessarily carrying the same meaning for all believers. Also, other than core traditional prayers, there's quite a few more recent ones reflecting changes in Judaism, Zionism and, of course, the creation of the State of Israel.

Arab Peace Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

There were numerous comments referencing the Gaza Strip as a 'concentration camp' made on these topics and past one. That you deny it, or claim not to have seen any doesn't change that. Even the 'open prison' bit is more about sensationalism. It's not like the Gaza Strip was always under a blockade - it is in place because of Hamas actions and agenda. Also, it is maintained by Egypt as well. If you want to claim that UNGA and other UN bodies are objective, bias free and do not routinely push anti-Israeli agendas - that's your choice. It does not reflect reality.

Likely how? Why? Nothing. Just more wishful thinking on your part.

You are aware that the parties representing them are part of Netnayahu's coalition, right?

So you've already decided the outcome of the war? How interesting. What I was referring to is that on past instances, Hamas pretended to allow investigations, but effectively did not provide free access. As to what may or may not happen in the aftermath of if and when Israel manages to oust the Hamas.....way too early to tell.