way2muchcoffee

If that head is rotten or treacherous, then a coup can be seen as justified,

since it is removing a treacherous head. If that head is not legally in office...

And regardless of Thaksin's whining he wasn't necessarily legally in the job.

He had quit his 'appointment' and then unilaterally took the job back.

Not to say a coup is good, but not all coups are the same,

nor are all situations fitting under a blanket definition.

"What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive"

Absolute nonsense of course but there is a certain malicious pleasure in seeing the knots these coup apologists get tied up in.

So no gray area then? Coup - bad. Army - bad. No difference as to they type of coup being held? No analysis of underlying motives? No discussion of whether or not people are killed?

It seems to me that we have a redshirt coup in the making right now. The redshirt movement does not just consist of the protesters. It is much larger than that. People have been killed. There has been war in the streets. Is this equally unacceptable? This is a violent attempt to overthrow a legal sitting government.

^even mentioning is pretty stupid on Kasit's part. Mind you def not the brightest and tends to run his gob too much.

Actually his statements regarding the opening of a national dialogue are worthy of high praise. This country needs to be prepared for the inevitable and that cannot happen if all discussions are held behind closed. All segments of society need to be included so that the nation as a whole can understand the issues and then make rational decisions.

Whatever happens to the Redshirts this govt can only have months left and as such will be little more than caretakers.

The Democrat party will in all probability end up being dissolved and Abhisit's support is if not crumbling, fraying at the edges.

It would seem also that the army is split over what they want to happen next......

use of the word "terrorist" is simply unfortunate....it is totally meaningless and carries a load of emotive overtones which the govt hope might emeliorate the situation they are - to wit one big hole.

Civilian and/or rogue military forces using grenades and assault rifles on security forces is terrorism. Threatening to derail the BTS is terrorism. Public calls to burn government buildings is terrorism. Threats to the government leaders, their homes, and their families is terrorism. Assassination of military leaders is terrorism. Attempted assassination of government leaders is terrorism. Kidnapping and taking soldiers hostage is terrorism.

What would you call it? Armed insurrection? Civil war?

Maybe soon he's going to have to live on his private jet, hopscotching there and then to refuel, resupply, occasionally to pick up some straggler Red leaders for company.

There's always Montenegro and Nicaragua and perhaps some African countries.

What era are you people living in? This is not good old Europe of 1052, nor is it the Warsaw ghetto and you do not get to barricade in people and then gas them.

The UDD protestors are not going to surrender if your bankrupt strategies are used. Only patience and sincere negotiations will resolve this now, or else the uprising that will ensue will find you all cowering under your beds. Let them pull back in peace. The bottom line is that one area can now be pacified without the further loss of life. These people were already in the other area. Get it through your noggins that these people cannot be forced into submission. They are tough bumiputra. Unlike the typical PAD member they can live rough without wilting. They will not go away no matter how many are shot in the back, gassed or disappear. General Prem must step back and let honest discussions start.

Honest discussions might start if the UDD were willing to discuss anything. To date this has not been their position.

Well a concerted effort to recruit red dissolutionists has

almost cranked it up to 50% of the law and order vote

55.14% to 55.81%... still lagging far behind.

Why might that be?

Oh yes that must be all the yellow double posters

trying to make red perceived direction to get justice seem, well, unjust.

Law and order is great if your side is control of the order and can ignore the law.

I'm surprised that a man like you finds this poll important....for whom and what ? You think that anyone cares?

And, "all the yellow double posters"

I think you know the most frequent banned returning poster of all, certainly not a red one. I think he has done more damage to other correct members, stripping them, than anybody else, ever, on this forum next to his more than likely influence on polls because of his countless alter ego's

I wonder how many votes he created on this Poll

Maybe you know?

LaoPo

Ohh. Another mystery.

Question: are there official statistics about bullet wounds? i.e. how much reds and how much military were wounded by bullets?

I haven't seen any information on this. It would be very interesting to see these stats though. Broken down by bullets, grenades, blunt instruments, other

and where you get this numbers from?

the 6 killed soldiers, 300 wounded, and 100 seriously wounded, by bullets and grenades, with the CO assassinated.

They were from reports from the hospital chiefs on the Sunday after. They were in the Breaking News section of The Nation but are no longer accessible as the website only maintains about 30-40 Breaking News articles in their database.

Correction and apology. My statement of numbers was poorly worded. After re-reading my post it may appear that I am suggesting that the 100 seriously wounded were all from grenades and bullets. That was not my intention. I have yet to see any breakdown of injuries, only the breakdown of civilian versus soldier.

^JD - don't block Red TV and likely none of this would have happened!!

BTW need be careful w/sunburn - not good for the skin and wouldn't want to see you get melanoma.

I disagree. It appears to have been a setup. The army walked right into it. They redshirt leaders have been blustering for weeks. The rhetoric was extremely violent. They pumped their followers full of hatred and anger. They baited the government at every turn. This was going to happen one way or another. And it could happen again.

^let's do it before - no time like the present. July/Aug will work.

Christmas sounds good to me. Things need to cool down. Hold elections during the cool season.

In BKK I think the cool season lasted about 1 week last year.

Far more impressive, noble and respectable than the yellow shirts who are rich and from next door.

Anyway, more and more Bangkokians become Reds in the sois (at least in my Chatuchak area).

I really don’t care if these idiot put their life on hold since is theirs to do what they want. But they have no right to put everyone else in a situation that nothing is safe anymore. If Thaksin was a PM and they were in fight with them, he would not hesitate to kill all of these people

Not really true is it given the length of time the PAD were protesting.

Yes - they were attacked by redshirt mobs.

Yes - they were bombed by 'unknown' assailants.

Yes - The were cornered at Parliament and bombed with Chinese military CS-gas canisters.

In the case of the PAD, the military refused to play ball, and the police are the police so not much help there either. There was no operation against the PAD that paralleled events on last Saturday night.

^Khun T is not coming back no matter what yellow/dem apologists say.

I more or less agree. If his minions win this war he will be back in country. I doubt that he'll hold public office again due to the chaos it would create. I suspect he would just collect his check. Pass Go, do not go to jail, and collect $2,000,000,000. He would likely be a very powerful elite pulling strings behind the scenes.

Question: are there official statistics about bullet wounds? i.e. how much reds and how much military were wounded by bullets?

I haven't seen any information on this. It would be very interesting to see these stats though. Broken down by bullets, grenades, blunt instruments, other

They went in against "peaceful" demonstrators, who had petrol bombs, grenades, machine guns and high powered rifles. Because of that, the red leaders should be taking a lot of the blame for these deaths.

No machine guns or high power rifles on red side except what was left behind by the military. They only responded when attacked by the military - last reported they were dancing/singing in the streets prior to all the mayhem. Rocks/bottles/bamboo/petrol/sticks are hardly tools of an elite fighting squad.

Do you honestly believe what you write? The video is out there.

^seem to be on the same side as the Army and was shot in the back.

Yes ... that's what I've heard. Not from anyone credible though. Have you actually seen it?

Which could mean he was shot while filming the army from in front of many of them, back to the reds.

Which could mean he was shot by a sniper well behind and above the army location.

It in no way conclusively says the army shot him in the back.

Which it is obvious some are trying to imply.

Could be the case, but as I said the view he was filming was like he was imbedded with the military. Sure possibility that the unknown snipers got him too, but obviously can't discount an accidental/purposeful shooting by the military either.

Except the complete lack of a motive for the military to do so.

The notion also doesn't fit well with the 6 killed soldiers, 300 wounded, and 100 seriously wounded, by bullets and grenades, with the CO assassinated.

Looks like more peaceful demonstrations.

BreakingNews: Thai protest leader vows no more talks with government, says ‘red shirts’ will establish single new base for ‘final battleground’ - Reuters

When will the Red leaders be satisfied. When there are more corpses Very sad.

Cheers, Rick

I've changed my opinion. This is armed insurrection bordering on civil war. The battle lines have been drawn. The battlefield is being prepared. Both sides are readying their forces. We can only sit and watch helplessly as Thailand tears itself asunder. Let us hope for a 'miracle' and that all sides can step away from this madness before it really is too late.

So the question now is, what should the government do?

They're in a horrible position, with "unknown" people amongst the red shirts killing soldiers and getting red shirts killed (got in the way of the black soldier, got in the way of military fighting back, whatever), and the reds doing nothing to help the government catch the shooters or even willing to negotiate an end to the protests.

And they reds just announced today that they would move all protesters from Pan Fah to Ratchprasong. Too difficult to defend two areas I would imagine. Also there are many thousands of 'innocent' redshirts at Ratch. And they big malls being held hostage. The damages to life and property would be enormous if the military tries to disperse the protesters from there.

Herding all the sheep in to one pen for the slaughter... what a mess this is. I'm beginning to think that the real objective of the Red leaders is not the dissolution of The House but something far more serious.

None of this is seems to be making sense to anyone reading the news or posting here regardless of your positions on the issues. I think we are all equally stumped.

Cheers, Alex

Yes. Far more serious and significant. Do not discuss. Don't be stumped. Read between the lines. Read all sources you can, and try to put the pieces together.

So the question now is, what should the government do?

They're in a horrible position, with "unknown" people amongst the red shirts killing soldiers and getting red shirts killed (got in the way of the black soldier, got in the way of military fighting back, whatever), and the reds doing nothing to help the government catch the shooters or even willing to negotiate an end to the protests.

And they reds just announced today that they would move all protesters from Pan Fah to Ratchprasong. Too difficult to defend two areas I would imagine. Also there are many thousands of 'innocent' redshirts at Ratch. And they big malls being held hostage. The damages to life and property would be enormous if the military tries to disperse the protesters from there.

...these black shirts and their sniper weapons running around with them..

Where have you seen sniper weapons? Are you making stuff up again? Thought so..

Yet to see the SIG-Sauer SSG 3000, SR-25 crop up in any photos yet. (common sniper rifles in thailand) Only seen the M16 and AK47 which are unsuitable for a professional long range sniper.

But the M16 and AK47 are suitable from the rooftop of a 4-story building 50-100 meters away from the target. There aren't too many tall buildings in that part of town.

When will the Red shirt followers ever stop taking other lives? Those murders. Criminals. Terrorists.

Nothing but the lowest life form on earth.

Red Leaders should all be thrown in jail.

Once they lock up Abhisit and his cohorts for the KSR massacare.

That won't happen.

Okay, so how do you define a 'wing'?

When people spoke of the IRA in Northern Ireland as being the military 'wing' of the Sinn Fein political movement, they were talking about a relationship which was relatively close and accepted by the 'leaders' of both groups as well as grassroots supporters. To describe Sah Daeng's paramiliteries as a 'wing' of the red-shirt movement I don't think is a direct parallel to the Northern Ireland example. At the most, the red shirt leaders would have known of Sah Daeng's involvement, but the question of whether the majority of red shirt protesters would have wanted them doing what they did is debateable, so to refer to those killers as a 'wing' of the red shirt movement suggests a degree of integration which I don't think exists.

When I say the 'redshirt movement' I am differentiating from the redshirt protesters. My usage of 'redshirt movement' is meant to describe all of the wings combined, whereas the protesters are just one part of a larger whole. I would think these wings are somewhat autonomous and given separate roles to play and tasks to fill.

Who knows maybe a movie will be made out of this? I don't think hollywood could write something better than this with so many twists/turns.

Oliver Stone? Nah.

It would have to be done like one of those Chinese war epics.

^govt also said Khun T was deported from different countries and he was not. I think this govt has lost all credibility and really has no clue what is going on. Shocked how fortunes could change so quickly.

I think you are wrong. I think the government and military know exactly who did this, though I would agree that they are probably shocked at how their fortunes have changed so quickly.

In the videos I have seen the guys in black can move freely around the reds indicating they are part of the movement.

I think this is wrong. If you are a non-violent, non-armed redshirt walking around in that environment and you see someone - dressed in fuscia and dayglow green for all it matters - brandishing a large automatic combat rifle I really don't think your first thought is going to be to ask him to leave.

To suggest that all red-shirts actively agreed to have these people among their numbers is too far-fetched. So being 'part of the movement' is only true in the broadest possible sense.

If you believe that the movement has various wings with different agendas then it makes sense.

1) The people's wing = redshirts demonstrators and their guards

2) The police wing = do we have a national police chief yet?

3) The political wing = PTP plus banned PPP/TRT folks

4) The media wing = PTV, Prachathai etc.

5) The finance wing = Thaksin, bussinessmen, politicians

6) The presentable military wing = Chavalit and the other retired generals who joined the PTP camp recently

7) The non-presentable military wing = Seh Daeng and quite possibly the 'Unknown Soldiers'

The government and military have already stated they know who these unknown militants are and that they are being hunted as we speak.

^maybe, but this very well could be military infighting which reared its ugly head. (deliberate fratricide)

The military doesn't control the government. There are too many things the government must do that the military doesn't want to be involved in. Generals tend not to make the best Prime Ministers. The government certainly doesn't control the military. But for any government to function in Thailand it needs to be in bed with the military, or at least the faction who controls the military at that time. There is a significant faction in the military who are Thaksin supporters. Given that the 'unknown party' is military these Thaksin supporters are the most likely suspects. There are other possibilities though.

Other reports in Western media say that they witnessed further video footage that showed both sides firing assault rifles with lethal intent.

Sean Boonpracong, a spokesman for the red shirts told Montlake that his organization has no links with rogue elements.

“Most of the reds are fighting with their bare hands or rocks or water bottles. If this was a third hand we’d like to know who it was. It definitely wasn’t us,” he said.

Doubts have surfaced regarding the loyalty of elements within the military to the government and accusations have been made that “watermelons”—because they are green on the outside but red on the inside—have supplied information to the anti-government leadership.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/33260/

Nothing more needs to be said......

Sure it does. If there are elements in the military who are not loyal to the current government then who are they loyal to? Obviously they are loyal to the people behind the redshirt movement.