MrMojoRisin

7 minutes ago, rabas said:

Yes, you are mistaken.

 

Arab and Muslims in Israel are full citizens. 2 million of them. Israel is a democracy, the only democracy in the Middle East ranked 29th worldwide. See Democracy Index  WIKI. This does not include Gaza, which is a terrorist state run by Hamas.

 

Good time to ask oneself how much else am I unaware of. Probably most of us. 

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy

 

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

This would require adopting your view that there is no difference between the sides.

Not everyone subscribes to your views.

No difference whatsoever.
 

Israel-Hamas conflict: Top commander admits Israel knew civilians were in refugee camp: WARNING: Graphic. A senior Israeli commander has made a stark concession in an interview about the bombing of a refugee camp.

https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/israelhamas-conflict-father-of-shani-louk-says-festival-goer-was-killed-on-the-spot/news-story/03c71e631ef3e5c58a4802075140a598

The old “Hamas rocket misfire” ain’t going to have too many buyers this time around.

6 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

What caused this war was murderous terrorists!

What caused the murderous terrorists?

16 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

You again do not attribute the necessary actions of the Israelis that caused by the terrorist butchery on the 7th, are you purposely ignoring the catalyst murderous actions of the Palestinian incursions, are you being purposely obtuse by ignoring the very people that started this war. Do you not agree that Israel has every right to defend its country and its citizens and why never any condemnation of the terrorists that created this war. Don't start a war and expect instant forgiveness, it doesn't work like that.

Huh?

Obtuse indeed.

From what I can decipher:

No, the war did not start on the 7th of October, it merely heated up on the 7th.

Yes Israel has a right to self defence.

Yes, I condemn terrorists - both the Palestinian and Israeli ones.

There has been constant condemnation of terrorists by all those who condemn Israel's actions.

I don't expect instant forgiveness, I expect each side not to commit war crimes

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

If it were my neighborhood, I would try to get Hamas out of there.

We are all heroes in our own heads.

Reality, however, tends to expose people for what they are.

You have no idea what you would do and how you would feel had you been born and raised in Gaza.

2 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Perhaps that is because Israel is not slaughtering civilians wholesale. Even using Hamas' inflated figures, about 8,000 Gazans have been killed in 3 weeks of bombing.  "Wholesale slaughter" in a crowded urban area, should Israel choose to do so, would result in 8,000 deaths in an hour.  

 

It is actually a remarkably low number, considering the difficult conditions the IAF has to work with, and a testament to their professionalism and restraint.

If it were your neighbourhood, your family and your friends being bombed, I wonder if you'd still be so dismissive of 8,000 deaths.

Probably not, eh?

1 hour ago, Wobblybob said:

These are the Terrorists refusing to answer questions about their horrific crimes and also lying, and some posters on here hang on to their every word. 

 

 

Merely an exception that proves the rule.

Every interview I have seen of somebody representing the Palestinian side the very first question is always - do you condemn Hamas's attack. The same is never asked of the Israeli proponents - do you condemn Israel's wholesale slaughter of civilians.

Very, very few decline the opportunity to condemn Hamas.

On occasion there is one or two.

It is dishonest to represent outliers as the norm - but I guess what choice have you when the truth is at odds with your opinions.

Which posters here are "hanging on their every word?"

54 minutes ago, rabas said:

Not only citizens, Arab Muslim women are not required to, and often don't, cover their heads. Many appreciate living in a normal society. 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html

 

... back to Hamas ...

The 20% of non-Jewish Israeli "citizens" do indeed have some, not all, but some of the rights afforded to Jewish citizens.

Why doesn't Israel offer those same rights the existing non Jewish Israeli's have to the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank creating a Greater Israel incorporating all the people's of the area?

Surely, the 20% are not just a token minority?

Wow - originally written in 1970 but reads as if it could have been penned just yesterday.

The latest phase of the undeclared war in the Middle East is based upon a profound miscalculation. The bombing raids deep into Egyptian territory will not persuade the civilian population to surrender, but will stiffen their resolve to resist. This is the lesson of all aerial bombardment.

The Vietnamese who have endured years of American heavy bombing have responded not by capitulation but by shooting down more enemy aircraft. In 1940 my own fellow countrymen resisted Hitler’s bombing raids with unprecedented unity and determination.

For this reason, the present Israeli attacks will fail in their essential purpose, but at the same time they must be condemned vigorously throughout the world.

https://www.heritagetimes.in/bertrand-russells-last-message-on-israel-and-palestine/

7 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Well, it may have something to do with all the hamas apologists going on and on and often lying about Irael killing babies. 

 

Think that might have something to do with it?

The difference is whenever a non Israeli apologist is requested to condemn Hamas, they do so immediately and unequivocally.

Whenever Israel atrocities are mentioned to the Israeli apologists....crickets.

7 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why should Israel care about what the ICC thinks? How will it benefit them? Israel would have to commit significant resources to facilitate and ICC investigation, and even if/when found guilty, what is the ICC going to do to hamas? Nothing. 

 

It is a waste of Israels time a resources. 

Exactly the same as Dictators not allowing international observers in during elections.

If you have nothing to hide....

Just now, Skipalongcassidy said:

Because in the Middle East not all muslims are terrorists, however all terrorists are muslim. 

Does that hold for all eras?

Any non-Muslim terrorism in the 1940's?

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That may be overstating but basically the Arabs are the Johnny come lately crew. But we must face current reality. Both peoples are there now. 

What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense.

Israel was established in 1948, in the preceding 2,000 years there was no Jewish state, anywhere?

If I leave my luggage at the airport, after 90 days without pick up - it's gone.

Israel has zero claim to any land in the Middle East.

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Israel demonizers are always expecting Israel to do absurd things that no other nation would ever be expected to do. No, it couldn't possibly be because Israel is the one Jewish state in a world with scads of Muslim states. Nah, perish the thought. Israel -- chosen for masochism and suicide. Been there, done that, will pass.

"...no other nation would ever be expected to do"?

Israel carries on as if they are being singled out when all that is being requested is for them to meet the minimum standards that the rest of the developed world adheres to.

Stop the war crimes and apartheid and people will stop demanding that they act civilised.

Intersting math / moral question:

What is the highest number of civilians deaths allowable to successfully take out a single enemy operative whilst still being able to maintain a legitimate claim to being civilised, humane and within the law?

Here's an example to ponder - 

Israel say they carried out airstrike that Hamas claim killed more than 50 people at Gaza's Jabalia refugee camp: 'Dozens of bodies' are recovered after site is reduced to giant crater - IDF claim their jets took out senior jihadi commander.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12693827/More-50-killed-Israeli-strike-Gazas-Jabalia-refugee-camp-Palestinian-health-officials-claim.html

Is 50:1 acceptable?

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

It's because he keeps getting the recorded message:

"Hamas Central is not available right now. Please leave your contact details, and terrorist representative will contact you as soon as possible.".

Israel has shut off the phones along with the power and water. 
For victims always on the defensive, they sure do exercise a lot of power and control over their enemies.

1 minute ago, transam said:

Like the Nazi German exterminators of the Jews, they will be found and dealt with.....😏

It’s not going to bring the dead back though is it?

In fact, it probably just guarantees  there’ll be more unnecessary death on both sides in the days, months and years ahead.

Maybe it’s time to give peace a chance.

What would Yitzak Rabin do?

Just now, coolcarer said:

Dude, you popped out of the tunnel now? So where is this link to the cold hard facts you claimed? 

Coming my friend, a little patience please.

10 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Muslim and Christians within Israel have equal rights and many become parliamentarians, judges, diplomats, public health officials, and IDF generals. About 1.7 million Muslims live in Israel with a yearly population growth. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Israel

Is the reality as rosy as you paint it here?

Many Arab citizens feel that the state, as well as society at large, not only actively limits them to second-class citizenship, but treats them as enemies, affecting their perception of the de jure versus de facto quality of their citizenship

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#:~:text=In 1966%2C martial law was,as Jewish citizens under law.

18 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

The one certain thing we do know is the IDF are advancing into Gaza and dismantleing Hamas and taking out there top hench men.

Carefully stepping over the dead babies and dismembered corpses one presumes.

Respect.

15 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The Gaza Strip borders Israel and Egypt. Hezbollah are in Lebanon. How does this run thing work, then?

 

Also, again - IDF actually takes this way more seriously than you. Expecting strong resistance in an area favoring the defending team, and casualties involved.

 

All this gung ho stuff is ridiculous.

🤣🤣🤣

The run thing works by taking the 300km tunnel from Lebanon to Gaza.

And yes, the IDF have not forgotten Jenin.

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

No, per the link, only about 45% do not support hamas' exterminating the Jews. 

 

About 12% a great deal, about 18% quite a lot, and about 22% not a lot. That 52% that support, and less than 45% (None at all) that don't support hamas' exterminating the Jews. 

 

I always liked Topcat (and Hong Kong Phooey).

Your understanding of the polling you're quoting is quite deficient.

When asked how they would vote if presidential elections were held in Gaza and the ballot featured Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of Hamas, Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, and Marwan Barghouti, an imprisoned member of the central committee of Fatah, the party led by Abbas, only 24 percent of respondents said they would vote for Haniyeh. Barghouti received the largest share of support at 32 percent and Abbas received 12 percent. 

Here's a morsel you can get some milage out of:

Most Gazans attributed the lack of food to internal problems rather than to external sanctions. ... In short, Gazans were more likely to blame their material predicament on Hamas’s leadership than on Israel’s economic blockade.

This not so much milage for you:

Overall, the survey responses indicate that Gazans desire political change. About half of Gazans expressed support for democracy: 48 percent affirmed that “democracy is always preferable to any other kind of government.” Given the low opinion most Gazans hold of their government, it is unsurprising that their disapproval extends to Hamas as a political party. 

By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas’s goal of eliminating the state of Israel. When presented with three possible solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as well as an option to choose “other”), the majority of survey respondents (54 percent) favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords.

No mention of exterminating Jews in the article so can't give any figures on it - you should just go with your gut feel - it's not as if facts are important to you.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas#:~:text=On the eve of Hamas's,percent of the adult population.

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

AKA managing the conflict.

AKA maintaining a situation that enables continued land grabs and keeps alive the "one state solution" with a jewish majority at the cost of innocent Palestinian and Israeli lives.