oldcpu

Again best wishes. Given there is no place on the tax return to list those pensions as exempt, and you likely (??) have to use a place in the tax return form not specifically intended for a DTA exemption, ... i am curious as to how the tax return will be received and initially evaluated by the RD. My guess is you will have questions from them, or possibly get an incorrect tax assessment by them. And then one is into the appeal process. But my guess could be wrong. It won't be the first time I have been wrong. After all, This is Thailand.

Best wishes in how this works out for you. We all need to look at our own financial situation and decide what is the best way forward. I knew that I would owe no tax to Thailand as I was under the LTR-WP visa, and my Canadian pension income was exclusively taxable by Canada (per the Canada-Thai DTA). However the 'big' question for me back in late 2023 was looking ahead, would I (in over a years time) need to file a tax return for upcoming 2024 tax year?? A quick look at the Thai tax return forms (from year 2017 to 2022 and later-2023 - yes I quickly looked at them all) was I could find no place for exemptions for my non-taxable (by Thailand) Canadian pensions, nor any place for income exemption from an LTR-WP visa holder (where one would expect the 2023 tax year form to have such). That is why I then read section-42 of the Thai tax code with interest (which states income not to be included in a Thailand tax calculation) and are leaning toward that section indicating such income is not to be included in the Thai tax calculation. However - I also am no tax expert. So I decided to bring no income into Thailand for tax year 2024. Then my Thai wife (who was equally puzzled as myself) tried to get a tax-ID for me (she filed on-line, and it went to Bangkok-RD, and was forwarded to the provincial RD where I live). A provincial RD official phoned my wife and I advised since I was not bringing income into Thailand (for tax year 2024) and since I had no Thai income, I did not need a TIN and did not need to file a Thai tax return for 2024 tax year. When my wife asked more questions, the official could not answer such, said he would call back, and he never did. I do think every expat should seriously look at their own tax situation, and make a judgement call as to what they should do. For certain, the current tax forms (year 2023 in English, and also google translation of Thai year 2024 tax form) have no place on them that I could find, where one can list income exempt due to a DTA (such as your case), nor income exempt due to Por.161/162, nor income exempt due to the LTR. Which is why I believe Thai tax code section-42(17) is very relevant. I guess we will find out with time.

I think I saw it and it made no sense in regard to exempt income. I suspect that would totally confuse anyone in the RD other than her.

Out of curiosity did you find a location on the Thai tax form to list it as exempt?

I don't see this as definitive as you. I would counter that POR 161/162 , Royal Decree, and even DTAs are intended to clarify (or be used in parallel with) Ministerial Regulations and the tax code, and as such, are to be included in the category of Ministerial regulations. Do I know this for certain. No. Obviously not. Which is why, despite my being on an LTR visa, I brought no money into Thailand in tax year 2024, and until this is clarified I can easily go a few more years at my same life style without bringing more money into Thailand. By then I hope there is more clarity. But - if I had to bet - I would bet my interpretation correct. Fortunately, I do not have to make that bet. .

That seems quite clear to me. Pensions need to be filed. DTA's will then determine whether they are subject to Thai Tax or only taxable in home Country. TEDA's and pension Credits will determine whether you have any tax to pay. I disagree with part of what you posted. I believe it is more complex than what you posted. Section 40(1) is NOT the only section in the Thai Tax code. OK? Please note: Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation: (1) ... (2) ... (17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations. ... Ok? That begs the question ... are POR.161/162, Royal Decree 743 (for LTR visas) and Thailand Double Tax agreements included under the category of Ministerial regulations? If they are, then what they may say about tax exemption is very important, as any tax exempt income noted by them is not to be included for the purpose of income tax calculations (per Section 42 of the Thai tax code). Ok? So if one's DTA (for example such as the Thai-Canada DTA - which says only Canada has the right to tax a Canadian sourced pension or similar Canadian sourced remuneration), then such income if remitted to Thailand is exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation. If that is one's only income, then one has no income to be included for income tax calculation, and hence if no assessable income one does not meet the threshold of assessable income for filing a Thai tax return. Clearly eveyone's financial sitution is different but the point is that there is more to this than just section 40.1. The second point is everyone needs to evaluate their own financial situation and be careful of blindly following anyone's general guidelines.

My understanding is that in September-2023, when Paw.161 came out, that RD 'order' / 'interpretation' noted all remitted assessable income into Thailand is to be included in the Thailand income tax calculation (if one is a Thailand tax resident), effective 1-January-2024. At that point, in the days after that, to manage our tax exposure, many of us brought savings into Thailand asap (in remaining days of September/October and part of November-2023). This is likely what you are referring to. And with only Paw.161 by itself, that made sense. Then later on 20-November-2023, Paw-162 came out, stating Paw.161 did not apply to any income earned/saved from foreign sources prior to 1-January-2024. Hence paw-161/162 in combination, suggest any income prior to 1-Jan-2024 can be brought into Thailand anytime in the future and not be susceptible to Thai taxation. Note this is my view/understanding, and I am by no means a tax expert.

"if that is the RD's intention." ... perhaps that is the key qualification. Is the term " RD " just the senior managers in Bangkok, or is it all RD across the country? And do the tax forms now properly reflect current policies? As it stands today, I think one can make an argument that given Thai tax-code section-42 has a list of income that is not to be included in a tax calculation, ... then that could mean such income (noted in that article) is not required to be included in a tax return. So if that speculation correct, then looking at the list of exempt items, there is Item-17 in that article's list which notes income exempt under ministerial regulations should not be included in a tax calculation. Does Paw-161/162 (covering pre-1-Jan-2024 income) and Royal Decree-743 (LTR visa) and various country DTAs come under the terminology of ministerial regulations. And does the DTA with one's source country exclude Thai taxation on one's relevant remitted income ? If they do (and if foreign income excluded per DTA (this needs to be checked)), and if the above speculative interpretation is accurate, then there is no need to list such associated income in a Thailand tax return. And if there is no need to list such in a Thai tax return, then there is also no need to list such income as exemptions in the exemption section (so then it matters not if such is not in the exemption section). And if those incomes (covered as tax exempt under ministerial regulations) are one's only income either in Thailand, or remitted to Thailand, then there could be no need to submit a tax return. Is that accurate? I don't know. It does have me wondering about this. I am most curious to watch how this evolves over the course of the next few years.

That is not precisely my understanding. Although perhaps I read you words that i quoted wrong . My understand, per paw-161/162, that any foreign savings/income from BEFORE 1-Jan-2024 remitted to Thailand anytime in the future, is not subject to Thailand tax. However any income earned AFTER 31-Dec-2023 remitted to Thailand any time in the future may be subject to Thailand tax (dependent on specific content of DTAs and perhaps LTR visa category). Maybe that's what you were typing and I my interpretation found the wording ambiguous.

Except if audited the Thai RD may assume remittances are current year income, and it is best to keep records to prove such is not current year income (consider is such is assessable or non-assessable given other factors such as is money pre-1-Jan-2024? is money 'protected' from Thai tax by a very specific DTA clause? is one on an LTR visa? ).

No. i"m not suggesting such. I don't know the origin of that money, nor do I know the UK-Thai DTA details. I think if you can show that money plausibly could have come from pre-1-Jan-2024 savings/income, then all is ok. But regard to money derived from tax year-2024 and remitted into Thailand ? You need to check the UK-Thai DTA.

I don't know. I doubt that it does. I have read no documents stating nor suggesting that the LTR provides a path to Thai citizenship. I do believe if you became a permanent resident or citizen of Thailand, you would immediately lose all benefits that come with an LTR visa.

Thanks. I was just curious. My wife already talked to local RD about my specific financial situation as a tax resident of Thailand. The local RD official advised in my case that I don't qualify for a Thai TIN, nor given my financial situation was I required to submit a tax form for 2024 tax year.

Did the RD office official state / confirm that any differences between the Thai language(?) 2024 forms and the online English language 2023 forms are either zero or insignificant?

Except, as has been pointed in various posts (albeit buried so deep it is possibly hard to find) the tax-year-2024 forms in English language are not yet available. https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html Yes, the 2023 tax year forms are available, but if you look at those forms and go to the last exemption page, you will note the tax year 2023 is hard embedded ... so those forms appear to be intended for a year-2023 tax submission and not a tax-year 2024 submission.

I suspect many foreigners who don't read this web site, when they show up at their local RD to get a Thai TIN, will find out the policy of their local RD, which may (or may not) be no TIN provided and do not file a tax return. or it may be here is a TIN and please do file a tax return. I also suspect some Thai local RD offices might initially get their assessment wrong, but I speculate as time goes by, the accuracy of assessment of the local Thai RD in evaluating the need to file a tax return (for the situation of different foreigners) will improve.

This is correct according to Royal Decree 743 (section-5) for 3 categories of the LTR, those being Wealthy Global Citizen, Wealthy Pensioner, and Work From Thailand Professional. Some are trying to (IMHO) misinterpret the Royal Decree and claim it depends on the tax year of the income that is remitted, but my view is it makes no difference. That is not to say an UNKNOWN future change in Thailand tax policy won't come about and change things - but we can only do the best we can with the information we have to date. The sky might fall also tomorrow. .

In the past - this certificate was only enforced for those entering or leaving Thailand. It was not enforced for extensions. After a while, the need for the certificate was dropped and ignored by immigration. Sure, this could happen - and this would be a way to try and enforce taxation , ... but will it happen? Who knows. For certain I don't know (where I am skeptical that it will happen). Agree.

A Benjamin Hart opinion video on American taxation. Hah !! Aside from the American's - who cares? Further, note one of the very first word from him is that this is an opinion video. My view - is if not an American, don't waste one second of your time watching such - and second for the Americans, note the video source - and then search this forum to understand the view of many on this forum in regards to posts from that source.

Ask her to make a screen print of the TM30 entry with your name on it. That (a screenprint) was accepted at the Phuket Immigration office a few years back.

false

Well ... individuals face no fines from CRS. That doesn't mean that national governments could then not fine individuals. I believe CRS requirements will be flowed down to the national level , and fines structured accordingly. Having typed that, don't believe the scaremongering hype of some about what CRS demands. Such hype is unfounded opinion, and when asked for official OECD references they don't post any. Why? Because there is none - and its easier for them to post unfounded scare mongering.

I don't think you are paranoid. In my case, I previous planned for such an eventuality as this 'uncertainty' period, and while a non-resident moved a fair amount of money to Thailand, which can pay for my lifestyle here for a few years without replenishment. So at present I remit no money to Thailand. I am also on an LTR visa. and I reside here for just under 300 days per taxation year. Speak for yourself. I am not keen on paying $3000 USD in Thailand taxes - given I not need legally pay any to Thailand in the current circumstances. I have invested in Thailand (condo , Thai government bonds) and I pay Thailand VAT. A lot of the posts here on this forum about OECD CRS requirements are unfounded scare mongering. Best to conduct one's own research and not believe the scaremongering posts. .

If the pension comes from overseas, then I would say yes. In the case of Thailand, my understanding is 'pensions' are treated as 'income'. Although having typed that, note that Thai Tax code article 42 lists exempt income that is not to be included in tax calculations, where income exempt due to ministerial regulations are not to be included in Thai tax calculations. One the needs to accurately assess if their overseas income (in particular pensions) are exempt due to Thai ministerial regulations. In some cases they are exempt, in other cases they are not exempt. For example, Canada's DTA (Double Tax Agreement) with Thailand states Canada has exclusive taxation rights on Canadian pensions (for Canadian pension receipt by those who are tax residents of Thailand). In contrast, German's DTA with Thailand states Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on German pensions (for German pension receipt by those who are residents of Thailand). There are of course other relevant ministerial regulations.

For example, both the Thailand and Canada faq on CRS implementation aspects for their countries, while noting in general that Financial Institutions accounts for individuals need to be reported to OECD per CRS, also note that government regulated accounts are not reported to CRS. For example such government regulated accounts in Canada include (but are not restricted to) Registered Retirement Savings Plans (RRSPs) and Registered Retirement Income Funds (RRIFs). Money in RRSPs and RRIFs are allowed to grow tax free by Canadian law. However when one is taking money out of the RRIFs and RRSPs, one must then pay tax to Canada on such withdrawals, and one must file a Canadian Income tax return. The Thailand FAQ re: CRS also notes Thailand government regulated funds for individuals are not reported to CRS.