JimGant

Not sure I follow.... I certainly know the value of my IRA on Dec 31 2024. Yes, I converted the income I had contributed to the IRA into mutual funds, but it's their value on 12/31/2024 that becomes my baseline figure for what I can remit to Thailand non assessable per Por 162. Already in 2024 I had to sell some of the mutual funds in my IRA to meet the required minimum distribution. And this sale, now cash, has been remitted already to Thailand -- and per Por 162, it certainly would not show up on a Thai tax return.

What country are you from? Many DTAs, following the OECD Model tax treaty example, have your home country -- where your rental property is located -- as the primary taxation authority. BUT -- the treaties also give your country of residence secondary taxation authority. In this situation, you file with your residence country (Thailand, in this discussion) -- but they have to absorb a tax credit for those taxes you pay to your home country. Two examples of this DTA language is with the UK and US DTAs with Thailand. So, if the above applies, you'll be off the hook for double taxation. But, if Thailand's taxation on this rental income is higher than your home country's -- being an expat in Thailand means a bigger overall tax bill on your rental income.

Yes. And per the DTA, Thailand has primary taxation authority to tax these remittances. UNLESS this new TRD rule is used as an exception: So, what's in your IRA? Pre 2024 income; thus not assessable by TRD decree. Yes, tax deferred, in the case of Traditionl IRAs -- or after tax income, in the case of a Roth (or tx exempt, for subsequent earnings). But, in both cases, the assets in your IRA began as pre 2024 income -- what they look like on 12/31/2023 is irrelevant, i.e., cash, stocks, whatever. So, it looks clear -- at least to me -- that the TRD decree means your IRA distributions, albeit labelled self directed pensions, are not taxable -- except for income accumulated post 2023 -- and recent info says you can use FIFO, thus these earnings would represent the last element of any monies remitted. Without that Nov 2023 decree, the whole remittance scenario would be different. The Traditional IRA would be taxable by Thailand. As for Roth IRAs -- look at the US-UK DTA for the protocol that dictates a tax exempt Roth by the US must be tax exempt by the UK. If we ever get to this point with Thailand, with worldwide taxation, then probably such a protocol would be needed for the US-Thai DTA to exempt Roth IRAs. But, a story for another day.

Actually, the value of your investments on 12/31/2023, when converted to cash and remitted to Thailand, would not be assessable. So, too, IRA required minimum distributions -- plus anything additional -- would not be assessable income -- up to the IRA's value on 12/31/2023.

Well, it's long past September -- and today (12/17/2024) I could still log into my SSA account with the old system (no Login.gov or ID.me required). I wonder how much longer this will exist, 'cause setting up the new options is a PITA?)

Ok, good point. My interest is, why would -- or could -- they even address DTA items, or other non assessable incomes -- since there is no "one DTA fits all." But, yeah, sure there will be some changes -- "happy" will be changed to "glad." I just can't imagine any really substantive changes being made. But, we'll see.

Why? What's wrong with the old/current tax forms? What new info is imperative, otherwise "nobody can file?"

In your opinion, just what changes could we expect? Current tax forms only have income line items for assessable income. Would the new forms have line items for remitted non assessable income (per DTA, or per being pre 2024 income items) -- so that TRD could see what's not being taxed? I guess this could be some interesting information for the green eye shade folks -- but to me, it seems it would be an unnecessary clutter. What else? A new edict accompanying the forms, saying: If bottom line says, "No taxes owed," no need to file? Highly doubtful, I guess -- but I can only hold out hope that TRD has some element of sanity. Anyway, just curious on what changes, if any, you expect. For me, the current forms are fairly straightforward, and capture all that is needed for a relatively stress-free tax filing adventure. And, of course, if after you figure out on the back of an envelope, that you owe no taxes -- then just don't file. (NO, NO -- let's not go there again. The readers on this forum have more than enough input to decide their individual action.)

Yes, for most OECD countries, civil/military pensions are taxable EXCLUSIVELY by the paying country. This includes Ireland, per their DTA with Thailand. This means, if your home (paying) country decides not to tax your civil/military pension -- you're home free from any taxes, as the EXCLUSIVE clause prevents Thailand from taxing this income, if remitted. This falls under the "exemption" phase of double tax prevention. Other categories of income, found in DTAs, however, do allow both countries to tax same income, with one being designated primary taxation authority, while the other one is the secondary taxation authority -- but has to absorb a tax credit for the taxes paid to the primary country. Rental income is a good example in many OECD treaties. Here, the situs country of the rental income has primary taxation authority; but your country of residence has secondary taxation authority. Here, if your home (situs) country decides not to tax your rental income, then your country of residence can tax all of it, without having to absorb any tax credits (since there aren't any such credits from the primary country). Thus, in this example, you ain't home free 'from any taxes', because this is avoidance of double taxation by tax credit -- not by exemption. So, without exemption, you end up paying someone. No freebies here.

That's good news; will, next year, save me two trips (delivery, pickup) to Thai Visa for agency service, plus a few baht. Was your receipt still using the 90 day report boilerplate? No big deal -- just a curiosity....

Not true.

Lemme see. 60k per mia noi, times 20, equals...nevermind.

With allowances and deductions and freebie (60k personal, 60k married, 190k over age 65, 100k pension -- plus 150k freebie rate = 560k) -- the effective tax rate on 5 million baht of assessable income would be: 25.2027%. If you had assessable income of 4,560,001 -- meaning after deductions, allowances, and freebie -- you were in the 35% tax bracket by only 1 baht -- then your effective tax rate would be: 21.1624%. This would be the lowest possible effective tax rate for someone in the 35% tax bracket. Obviously the person who arrived at an effective tax rate of 10%, for a person in the 35% tax bracket, included a lot more allowances and deductions than I did in my above example.

Any good recommendations for out in the Doi Saket area?

That form, as I read it, is to take an exemption on certain incomes for being disabled, under age 65. Or for taking exemptions for being over age 65 -- up to a maximum of 190000 baht. Nothing to do with certain categories of income being exempt by Royal Decree or TRD edict.

Didn't you beat this dead horse in another thread? Didn't the Royal Decree say remitted income by LTR holders is not taxable. And if certain income is deemed not taxable, it can no longer -- ipso facto -- be considered assessable income, as that term becomes meaningless if no taxation is attached to it. Give this line of concern a break. As a Wealthy Pensioner LTR visa holder, no taxes and no tax return are due. BoI folks have already expressed this fact to some who have asked -- why do you go on about this? Why do you worry about not filing a null tax return -- when clearly no tax evasion, by definition, has taken place?

I was replying to your statement: .....pointing out that you are NOT -- in all circumstances -- remitting income of some description.

Not necessarily. My bank account, in 2024, received a gift from my folks; an inheritance from granddad; and a loan from my bank. All these monies were remitted to Thailand for my new house. None are income, for either US or Thai taxation purposes.

Yeah, meaning income otherwise taxable (i.e., assessable income), 'cause not exempt by DTA -- is by Royal Decree -- now not taxable. And, ipso facto, income not taxable is also income that is not assessable. Thus, no tax return required. Fun games with word salad. This element of what the Royal Decree really means ain't what gets my concern -- it's when we go to worldwide income taxation -- and then what does the Royal Decree encompass?

A Thai tax return is required only if you have assessable income. To be assessable income, it has to be subject to Thai taxation (subject, but not necessarily taxable, if exceeded by TEDA). If your DTA says certain income, when remitted, is not taxable by Thailand, then ipso facto it is also not assessable income. If a Thai law says pre-2024 savings are not taxable, then they, too, are not assessable. If a Royal Decree says remitted income by LTR holders is not taxable -- it too is therefore not assessable. Thus, if no assessable income, then no requirement to file a Thai tax return. IMO. Lady at BoI knows of what she speaks.

Yeah, sometimes it's really difficult to wade through your musings.

Yeah, that's pretty scary --NOT -- if you have good records showing no taxable income.

Public spirited, indeed. Those null tax returns were filed to get refunds -- many/most were fraudulent. A far cry from filing because the law says you must, with an income of 60k. Do your homework:

You're right. What we've heard is that the fine for failure to file, when no taxes owed, is 2000 baht. We've never seen an example of that -- not that it's not occurred. But, you're right -- I'll tell my gardener and maid they best take a day off and try and get a TIN. Then, in Jan -- since they can't read or write -- go hire a tax agent to file a null tax return -- maybe they can get a deal for 5000 baht. Or, maybe I'll say -- just forget any stupid advice you might hear from a forum. Sit back, do nothing -- and take a 1% chance, or less, of paying a 2000 baht fine for not filing a null tax return (how in the world would authorities determine that need to file?). Vs paying 5000 baht for an agent to file a return. Anyway, I seem to keep inventing new definitions for common sense.

I know what the Code says in relation to 60/120/220 thresholds for filing. I'm saying, forget the 60/120/220 thresholds, and only file when you have taxable income. As such, there's no tax evasion involved -- so you are in no risk of a fine on non existent tax owed. Just forget the 60/120/220 rule -- at no reportable risk to yourself. And, for most reading this, with below TEDA assessable income -- no need to try and get a TIN from a TRD, that throws you out for trying to get one -- with no taxable income. Sigh.