Catalan leader presses on with banned vote on split from Spain

[webfact]

Catalan leader presses on with banned vote on split from Spain

By Julien Toyer and Sam Edwards

 

Catalan Regional President Carles Puigdemont records a statement at the regional government headquarters, the Generalitat Palace, in Barcelona, Spain, September 21, 2017. Catalan Goverment/Ruben Moreno Garcia/Handout via REUTERS

 

MADRID/BARCELONA (Reuters) - The Catalan regional leader on Thursday said he would press on with an Oct. 1 referendum on a split from Spain, flouting a court ban, as tens of thousands gathered for a second day on the streets of Barcelona demanding the right to vote.

 

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont said he had contingency plans in place to ensure the vote would go ahead, directly defying Madrid and pushing the country closer to political crisis.

 

Spain's Constitutional Court banned the vote earlier this month after Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said it violated Spain's 1978 constitution, which states the country is indivisible. Most opposition parties are also against the vote.

 

"All the power of the Spanish state is set up to prevent Catalans voting," Puigdemont said in a televised address.

 

"We will do it because we have contingency plans in place to ensure it happens, but above all because it has the support of the immense majority of the population, who are sick of the arrogance and abuse of the People's Party government."

 

On Thursday, tens of thousands gathered outside the seat of Catalonia's top court in Barcelona, singing and banging drums, to protest the arrests of senior officials in police raids on regional government offices on Wednesday.

 

"This is a step back for democracy," said one of them, 62-year-old pensioner Enric Farro. "This is the kind of thing that happened years ago - it shouldn't be happening now."

 

State police arrested Catalonia's junior economy minister, Josep Maria Jove, on Wednesday in an unprecedented raid of regional government offices.

 

SPONTANEOUS PROTEST

 

Acting on court orders, police have also raided printers, newspaper offices and private delivery companies in a search for campaign literature, instruction manuals for manning voting stations and ballot boxes.

 

Polls show about 40 percent of Catalans support independence for the wealthy northeastern region and a majority want a referendum on the issue. Puigdemont has said there is no minimum turnout for the vote and he will declare independence within 48 hours of a "yes" result.

 

A central government's spokesman said protests in Catalonia were organised by a small group and did not represent the general feeling of the people.

 

"In those demonstrations, you see the people who go, but you don't see the people who don't go, who are way more and are at home because they don't like what's happening," Inigo Mendez de Vigo said.

 

Mendez de Vigo also said an offer for dialogue from Madrid remained on the table. Repeated attempts to open negotiations between the two camps over issues such as taxes and infrastructure investment have failed over the past five years.

 

Rajoy said on Wednesday the government's actions in Catalonia were the result of legal rulings and were to ensure the rule of law. The prime minister called on Catalan leaders to cancel the vote.

 

Hundreds of National Police and Guardia Civil reinforcements have been brought into Barcelona and are being billeted in two ferries rented by the Spanish government and moored in the harbour. But the central government must tread a fine line in enforcing the law in the region without seeming heavy-handed.

 

The stand-off between Catalonia and the central government resonates beyond Spain. The country's EU partners publicly support Rajoy but worry that his hardline tactics might backfire .

 

In Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, who heads the pro-independence devolved government, said she hoped the Catalan and Spanish governments could hold talks to resolve the situation.

 

In a referendum in 2014, Scots voted to remain within the United Kingdom.

 

(Writing by Sonya Dowsett; Additional reporting by Elizabeth O'Leary in Edinburgh, Editing by Larry King)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-09-22

[Rancid]

By all reports the Spanish government is getting nasty sending in heavily armed police to arrest officials who are pro-vote, you wonder though if the show of force just converts more people to pro-independence, whereas seems like Pro was only running at 40% and unlikely the Yes would win.

[sandrabbit]

The EU showing it's not pro democracy by supporting the Madrid government, wait for the Basques and the Belgian Walloons to start protesting again. Not like Nicola to be cagey after all the hot air she's been giving off over Scotland.

[Tarteso]

The police are not only for control the exits in a football matches of Barcelona FC, or catch the thief. The police must enforce the Constitucion and is unders order of the State Attorney General.

 

Another question is that the Spanish Goverment and the Catalonia comunity should be sit down to negotiate, modify the Constitution and revision of the MAGNA CARTA. A common agreement for Catalonia have it own Constitution and always within a Spanish Federal State. So,  a unilateral decision of independence in a old Democratic country and within the EU, does no make sense. Without these premises, police must and are enforcing the Law...IMO.

 

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, sandrabbit said:

The EU showing it's not pro democracy by supporting the Madrid government, wait for the Basques and the Belgian Walloons to start protesting again. Not like Nicola to be cagey after all the hot air she's been giving off over Scotland.

 

Interesting you think it's democratic for a region within a sovereign state to defy the law and demand that they, only they and not the whole country, should be allowed to vote on something that will affect the whole country's future.

 

All political parties must obey the law of their country. It's not something they can chose to ignore if they don't happen to like it.

 

And democracy would be if the national government decided to hold a national referendum on the issue. Otherwise it's the tail wagging the dog.

 

ps Sturgeon is cagey because of the poorer than expected SNP showing in the recent general election. She realized the SNP's constant demands for another, and probably more and more, referendums were actually pissing people off; and many of those people were now questioning the SNP performance. She has some work to do.

[Tarteso]

For those who want to know more about the manipulation and 8 lies of catalan regional premier;

 

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/20/inenglish/1505917320_788824.html

[sandrabbit]

57 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Interesting you think it's democratic for a region within a sovereign state to defy the law and demand that they, only they and not the whole country, should be allowed to vote on something that will affect the whole country's future.

I know it's slightly different as the UK government allowed a Scottish vote but it was only Scotland that was allowed to vote and I think if the whole country had been allowed to vote Scotland would be independent now. What I was trying to infer is that the EU takes an interest around the world in democracy but not in Europe, if Scotland had gained independence would they then have allowed the Shetlands & Orkneys to become independant?. 

[RuamRudy]

22 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

ps Sturgeon is cagey because of the poorer than expected SNP showing in the recent general election. She realized the SNP's constant demands for another, and probably more and more, referendums were actually pissing people off; and many of those people were now questioning the SNP performance. She has some work to do.

You and I seem to share a lot of common views, but Scotland is clearly not one of them (apologies for going off topic, but the relentless flow of misinformation about the Scottish government shows that if you throw enough mud, it sticks). 

 

The SNP has been the dominant political force in Scotland for 10 years and still has an impressive clutch of MPs - more than all the other parties put together. In Holyrood, with a system designed to prevent any party from gaining a majority, they still have the upper hand. How many other parties can claim to have the support that the SNP has after being in office for so long?

 

As for the constant cries about indyref2, NS is very muted on that - it is Rape Clause Ruth and whichever low grade SLab leader is on  seat this month, who keep blowing the dog whistle. 

 

And performance? Can you point to anything in particular? Your vague and catch-all term  is a handy way for the Unionist MSM to try to paint the SNP as bad, when the reality is that, compared to the utter shambles that the Tories are making of virtually every aspect of civic life in the rest of the UK, the SNP are proving themselves to be competent while having one hand tied behind their backs. 

[RuamRudy]

21 hours ago, sandrabbit said:

I know it's slightly different as the UK government allowed a Scottish vote but it was only Scotland that was allowed to vote and I think if the whole country had been allowed to vote Scotland would be independent now. What I was trying to infer is that the EU takes an interest around the world in democracy but not in Europe, if Scotland had gained independence would they then have allowed the Shetlands & Orkneys to become independant?. 

The idea that Shetland and Orkney would want to secede from an independent Scotland and return to the UK has not been borne out by the polls but appears to be just another scare story by the media, to add to the myriad scare stories. 

 

But to address your hypothetical, I would like to think that such a situation was averted through a national dialogue that ensured that all regions of the country were respected to their satisfaction. It speaks volumes about the cohesiveness of a country if a sizable portion of it wants to peel off. The fact that the Catalans have got to this point suggests something fundamentally lacking in the Spanish national dialogue. But to answer you, if a distinct and contained body of people wanted to secede, then assuming the practicalities can be managed, so be it. Enclaves would be problematic; islands less so. 

 

With regards your earlier point, NS has made a public statement on the Catalan situation, unlike most of our spineless, unprincipled Labour and Conservative MPs. 

[simon43]

Madrid has everything to lose and Catalonia everything to gain if that region declares independence from Spain.

 

I lived and worked in Catalonia and Andorra for several years.  I hope the Catalan people are successful in their struggle for independence from Spain.

[Grouse]

I have just returned from Aragon, Catalonia and SE France. Catalan flags are everywhere on both sides of the border

 

To comment, as usual, one needs to understand the history over the last 80 years including the Civil War and The Spanish holocaust.

 

Families are still very bitter about it all.

 

I would have thought increased devolution must be a way forward. 

 

Catalonia feels more prosperous than Aragon, one just needs to look at the roads.

 

But it must be like Flems, Bavarians, Californians, Londoners and Bankokians going for independence!

 

Read the history - Preston's many books are recommended

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-spanish-holocaust-inquisition-and-extermination-in-twentieth-century-spain-by-paul-preston-7468500.html

[Tarteso]

17 hours ago, Grouse said:

I have just returned from Aragon, Catalonia and SE France. Catalan flags are everywhere on both sides of the border

 

To comment, as usual, one needs to understand the history over the last 80 years including the Civil War and The Spanish holocaust.

 

Families are still very bitter about it all.

 

I would have thought increased devolution must be a way forward. 

 

Catalonia feels more prosperous than Aragon, one just needs to look at the roads.

 

But it must be like Flems, Bavarians, Californians, Londoners and Bankokians going for independence!

 

Read the history - Preston's many books are recommended

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-spanish-holocaust-inquisition-and-extermination-in-twentieth-century-spain-by-paul-preston-7468500.html

Nobody can understad the history of Spain without study the past over 2000 years and not only over the last 80 years. But Interested point about Paul Preston, I read his books.

I am Spanish (father from Madrid and Mother from Catalonia). Agree with the independence and I recognize the uniqueness of Catalonia as a federal country but both goverment (Madrid and Catalonia) are wrong in the way to get a common agreement and look like we learned NOTHING about our past. Let’s see the future and like Paul Preston say; “hope this issue will not became to another one “Holocaust”.

 

 

[Tarteso]

... Where the common sense is gone in 21 century?