Born In Thailand, But A Thai National Or Not ?

[Rinnam]

As long as I remember, I think you can't have dual citizen after 20 years old. (before 20, you can hold 2 citizens)

However your friend should ask British Embassy whether she can apply for Thai passport or

not.

And to answer your topic, she is not a Thai national now. She has to change her citizen otherwise just gets a working visa to work here.

[lopburi3]

As long as I remember, I think you can't have dual citizen after 20 years old. (before 20, you can hold 2 citizens)

However your friend should ask British Embassy whether she can apply for Thai passport or

not.

And to answer your topic, she is not a Thai national now. She has to change her citizen otherwise just gets a working visa to work here.

What dual nationality are you talking about? Thailand and UK have no such rule but perhaps you are thinking of male military service requirement in Thailand?

Why would anyone ask the UK Embassy if they can apply for a Thai passport? Thai passports are issued by Thailand and not the concern of the UK. If you believe the UK would not allow it you are wrong. But the person would have to meet Thai requirements.

[andy1308]

An update on the situation of my friend. She has been told by the Thai Embassy in London that Thai law prevents its citizens from holding dual nationalty. This does against everything being said here, so I was wondering whether there is some law or regulation that can be quoted back to them? The person in the Embassy did say 'many people hold both Thai and British passports but do not declare their British ones'. Naturally my friend is a bit concerned by this, and does not want to sacrifice her British passport unless absolutely necessary.

Any advice or suggestions, as always, is very much appreciated.

[samran]

The Thai nationality act can be interpreted in a couple of ways, depending on the reader. The relevant link can be found here.

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...onality_Act.htm

Section 7 clearly states who gets Thai nationality, which seems to be the case of your friend.

Chapter 2 of the act deals with the loss of nationality – and dual nationality.

The main issue that people like to bring up is that they think the legislation says that one must give up Thai nationality at age 20, if they desire to keep their other nationality (section 14 of the act). They error in their interpretation is that the legislation actually gives the choice to renounce between the ages of 20 and 21, rather than force a renunciation at that age. If there is no renunciation, there is no penalty. Even on strict reading though, this clause won't even apply to your friend.

The same goes for section 13 (a Thai woman taking on the nationality of her husband). Some will tell you that once a woman marries a foreigner, they will lose their nationality. Reading the act though, again, it basically gives the option to renounce, but there is no compulsion under section 13. But again, this doesn't apply to your friend.

Having said that, there should be a couple of points to note. The act does go on to describe certain situations where dual nationality is not possible, especially section 22. For some reason though, this does not appear to be enforced anywhere…and no clear reason has been given as to why it hasn't.

For me, I interpret the act as allowing dual nationality across the board, as the sections which in some cases ban dual nationality do so on a discriminatory basis between Thai citizens, which if we had a constitution, would be illegal (e.g. discriminating between those with a father who is foreigner versus those who don't, or between those who naturalise to get a second citizenship versus those who are born with it). As a result, I believe, and having spoken to legal experts about the nature of these things, that the possibility is open for all to have dual nationality, and practice bears this out.

Responses like these state quite clearly that there is no problems from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs officals perspective.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers...ails.asp?id=694

http://phuketgazette.com/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=935

There is also the real world experience, of people such as me who come and go from Thailand on two passports and have never had much of an issue doing so (and to continue to do so). Indeed when I moved back to Thailand permanently, before being allowed to put my name on the Tabien Baan (house registration), the Ampur actually rang immigration to see if I was allowed to hold two passports, to which they were advised that I was.

There is also, most relevantly for your friend, the issue of the RTE in London issuing Thai passports to people in the UK who clearly have UK passports, despite it being 'illegal' in their eyes. I'm sure a number of members here will tell you that they have no problem with applications.

The best advice I would have, is for your friend to actually go down to the Embassy, armed with all and any ID that she has, and apply for the Thai passport there (ie not asking, just doing it). The Thai birth certificate states that she is Thai, and she was certainly born Thai. Additionally, the passport application form does not ask you to state if you have another nationality, and if I read the act correctly, only the Minister can revoke Thai nationality, not an embassy staff member. She should be persistent (I would) and see what happens.

[roamer]

I gave birth to my son here in Thailand last year. I am Canadian my husband is from NZ. The baby can NOT have Thai citizenship. He would only be entitled to it if one or both of us were permanent residents - which we're not. Instead he has NZ and Canadian citizenship.... Being born here no longer automatically entitles you to a passport otherwise then all the refugees born in Thailand would also be entitled is how it was generally explained to me...

Sounds like your friend will still be eligible as I assume she was born prior to 1992 and if one or both parents are named on her original birth cert.

Not exactly the case according to the Thai Embassy in Vancouver, which is where I lifted the screenshot below from, a refugee is an illegal alien and therefore they do not qualify. However as a legal alien married to another legal alien apparently you can. Note I say apparently.....

Edited January 19, 2007 by roamer

[lopburi3]

They were not "PR" so they have no claim on Thai citizenship for a child born here. Legal Alien being defined as having permanent residence.

if one or both of us were permanent residents

[roamer]

They were not "PR" so they have no claim on Thai citizenship for a child born here. Legal Alien being defined as having permanent residence.

if one or both of us were permanent residents

My mistake then. Thought legal alien applied if you had a work permit.

[bmanly]

The Thai nationality act can be interpreted in a couple of ways, depending on the reader. The relevant link can be found here.

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...onality_Act.htm

Section 7 clearly states who gets Thai nationality, which seems to be the case of your friend.

Chapter 2 of the act deals with the loss of nationality – and dual nationality.

The main issue that people like to bring up is that they think the legislation says that one must give up Thai nationality at age 20, if they desire to keep their other nationality (section 14 of the act). They error in their interpretation is that the legislation actually gives the choice to renounce between the ages of 20 and 21, rather than force a renunciation at that age. If there is no renunciation, there is no penalty. Even on strict reading though, this clause won't even apply to your friend.

The same goes for section 13 (a Thai woman taking on the nationality of her husband). Some will tell you that once a woman marries a foreigner, they will lose their nationality. Reading the act though, again, it basically gives the option to renounce, but there is no compulsion under section 13. But again, this doesn't apply to your friend.

Having said that, there should be a couple of points to note. The act does go on to describe certain situations where dual nationality is not possible, especially section 22. For some reason though, this does not appear to be enforced anywhere…and no clear reason has been given as to why it hasn't.

For me, I interpret the act as allowing dual nationality across the board, as the sections which in some cases ban dual nationality do so on a discriminatory basis between Thai citizens, which if we had a constitution, would be illegal (e.g. discriminating between those with a father who is foreigner versus those who don't, or between those who naturalise to get a second citizenship versus those who are born with it). As a result, I believe, and having spoken to legal experts about the nature of these things, that the possibility is open for all to have dual nationality, and practice bears this out.

Responses like these state quite clearly that there is no problems from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs officals perspective.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers...ails.asp?id=694

http://phuketgazette.com/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=935

There is also the real world experience, of people such as me who come and go from Thailand on two passports and have never had much of an issue doing so (and to continue to do so). Indeed when I moved back to Thailand permanently, before being allowed to put my name on the Tabien Baan (house registration), the Ampur actually rang immigration to see if I was allowed to hold two passports, to which they were advised that I was.

There is also, most relevantly for your friend, the issue of the RTE in London issuing Thai passports to people in the UK who clearly have UK passports, despite it being 'illegal' in their eyes. I'm sure a number of members here will tell you that they have no problem with applications.

The best advice I would have, is for your friend to actually go down to the Embassy, armed with all and any ID that she has, and apply for the Thai passport there (ie not asking, just doing it). The Thai birth certificate states that she is Thai, and she was certainly born Thai. Additionally, the passport application form does not ask you to state if you have another nationality, and if I read the act correctly, only the Minister can revoke Thai nationality, not an embassy staff member. She should be persistent (I would) and see what happens.

Core blimey Samran, in another thread you said you couldn't "explain the law". I think you have demostrated very well in this post that you do really know the law, that is a lot of valuable information for everybody, thanks mate!

[samran]

Core blimey Samran, in another thread you said you couldn't "explain the law". I think you have demostrated very well in this post that you do really know the law, that is a lot of valuable information for everybody, thanks mate!

We'll, until an expert comes along, I'm the next best thing

Seriously though, I can't 'explain' why it has been written the way it has. To that extent, I had the opportunity to speak to a member of the council of state about this once (the govt dept which drafts the laws). He response was that in Thailand, sometimes it is just the case that laws a written intentionally to create grey areas. There are always competing political interests there, so things a 'fudged' so both sides look like they can win.

A couple of people here have challenged me on my views, and fair play, they can be argued either way. But, for me, the practicalities of the situation tend to over ride these objections which include:

1) As soon as the law was passed, being told by the RTE in Canberra back in 1992 by a close friend who worked that it was now OK for my mother and me to apply for Thai documents (which we both did).

2) The fact that since then I've never had a problem coming and going from Thailand

3) The fact that when it has been potentially an issue (ie getting my tabieen baan and ID), no one has blinked an eyelid.

4) And that my blond haired blue eyed child has a Thai PP too.

[bangkokbanks]

Sir:

I have been following the threads of opinions, you must be confused by all of this; welcome to the Thai way. To reiterate my case, your friend has a Thai birth certificate that is the key issue here. The UK authorities need not be informed of her inquiery rather it be in the form of questions or citizenship. In my families case they new well that my kids are US citizens, my wife too when questioned to renew her passport had the same reply: Yes I am also US citizen. It is a formality on the application, which is then sent to Thailand for processing. I am refering to obtaining a birth certificate for my kids. When the certificates arrived in the mail, we immediatly applied for Thai passports. The application was typical Thai, nothing simply or easy, a lot of questions including what religion you are etc. Again on the form we put that the kids are born in America, and included copy of their American and Thai birth certificate, two weeks later we had the passports. For what it is worth that is our experiance. As my wife says to me and this may be good advise; "never give them more information than they ask for."

Take care.

[andy1308]

Thanks for all this very useful information and first-hand experiences. It is much appreciated, and I will update you on her progress so anyone else in the same situation knows what to expect.

Thanks again.

Andy.

[Mosha]

Re the born in Thailand to non Thai parents. If they were awarded Thai citizenship these days, with the immigrant population what it is. I reckon there'd be a bloody riot

[Arkady]

have a friend who was born 40 years ago in thailand. both her parents are foreigners.

she recently got the thai passport without having to go via residency permit first.

born here seems to give you a right to apply for thai citizenship. maybe its slightly more difficult if none of the parents is thai.

Born here before I think 1973 to alien parents gives the right to Thai citizenship. It is complicated to claim it if you haven't kept it up but I knew a Swiss woman who successfully did while working as an expat here. It took here two or three years but she didn't have to go through permanent residence first. Now alien parents must both (I think) be permanent residents for their Thai born kids to qualify. Since 1992 if one parent is Thai you are Thai where ever you are born.

Not the same with UK nationality i.e. if you are British and your kids are born outside the UK, your kids are British but their kids will only be British, if born in the UK. Thai nationality by descent is now less strict.