Who is responsible for the TM 30?

[bazza73]

Setting up for my visa extension with Immigration early November, my condo has no record of a TM30 for me on file. Someone has to go to Immigration and pay a 1600 baht fine.

I'm slightly gobsmacked that I've been living at this condo for the past 8 or 9 years, and no-one has (apparently) lodged a TM30 for me in all that time. I don't know why it hasn't been picked up on the 90 day reports. Or in my yearly extension applications, until now.

Who is responsible? The landlord ( never here ), his agent, or the condo staff?

Do I have any responsibility for the TM30? I certainly don't consider I should be paying any fine.

[Maestro]

According to section 38 of the Immigration Act, the house-master, possessor or owner of the residence is responsible for notifying the arrival of a foreigner to immigration.

 

Section 4 defines the house-master as the chief possessor in his capacity of owner or tenant.

 

In your case, as the tenant of the condo where you reside, you are the house-master and possessor of section 38 rolled into one and thus doubly qualified to submit the TM.30.

[elviajero]

It's the responsibility of the House-master (not you), or Owner, or Possesor (probably you) to submit the report. 

 

Usually immigration would be looking for the owner owner of the condo or their agent to report.

 

Anyone responsible for the report could be fined if a report isn't made.

[NanLaew]

Since it is initially the property owners and/or landlords/agents responsibility to file, then he/she is responsible. However, since apparently there's neither the will or a legal mechanism to pursue this with the aforementioned reluctant property owners and/or landlords/agents, the immigration cops get all fuzzy on the exact legal definition of who exactly the House-master or Owner or Possessor is... it's their law after all so they are legally allowed to get fuzzy on it. Consequently, since the tenant is the only person they see on any regular basis in that he is legally bound to visit their office at least every 90-days then it's Bingo!... you are suddenly the property owners and/or landlords/agents and you are the one that's fined for another persons crime.... or sometimes your Thai spouse is fined if she's tagging along.

 

They make it all up as they go along and some get slapped with a fine whilst others go happily on their way, with wallets not unnecessarily tapped and totally unaware how close they were to circling sharks. No definable criteria such as age, height, haircut, nationality, personal hygiene, dress, Thai language ability, signs of visible wealth or lack thereof, depth or length of wai or preemptively stacking the tip-jar with colored paper has been positively identified as guaranteeing not leaving the office a bit poorer.

 

Huge, previously untapped cash cow that has rapidly paid for a swish, new, dedicated, farang TM30 reporting and TM30 miscreants fine-paying office at Jomtien Immigration.

Edited October 12, 2017 by NanLaew

[hawker9000]

Many owners feel that fulfilling their obligation to do the TM30 "puts them on the radar" as taxable income recipients and therefore resist doing it (and will usually plead total ignorance if approached).  It's also difficult to complete a TM30 without the involvement of the owner.  As mentioned above, in Jomtien, this translates to passing the buck to the renter.  (So, if I need a 30d extension for example, I just plan on a couple of days stay in a hotel up in Bangkok; Chaengwattana is easier to deal with...)

 

BUT, legally, if a TM30 is required, it's not only required, but required within 24hrs of arrival.   I doubt if many renters who just make their reservations online before they leave home know anything about it or have the first clue. And trust me, checking in they will NOT be told.

 

 

 

[OJAS]

11 hours ago, bazza73 said:

Setting up for my visa extension with Immigration early November, my condo has no record of a TM30 for me on file. Someone has to go to Immigration and pay a 1600 baht fine.

Which immigration office are we talking about? While the TM30 requirement is enforced with zeal and gusto at certain offices such as Jomtien and Chiang Mai, it most definitely is not at Chaengwattana, for example, according to various reports on here.

 

If the lack of a TM30 in your case has not been picked up during recent trips for 90-day reporting and annual extension of stay purposes, then it is possible that your office is one of those which do not enforce the TM30 requirement rigidly.

Edited October 13, 2017 by OJAS

[peterb17]

Do what a couple of friends did- pay the fine- then deduct it from the rent.

Although the wording is a bit vague, it is up to the landlord .

 

You did not say where you are, in Jomtien we have to report within 24 hrs after being out of the country- they put a new blue bit of paper into your passport related to the TM30.

 

 

[bazza73]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

Which immigration office are we talking about? While the TM30 requirement is enforced with zeal and gusto at certain offices such as Jomtien and Chiang Mai, it most definitely is not at Chaengwattana, for example, according to various reports on here.

 

If the lack of a TM30 in your case has not been picked up during recent trips for 90-day reporting and annual extension of stay purposes, then it is possible that your office is one of those which do not enforce the TM30 requirement rigidly.

Chiang Mai Immigration. I don't present at Immigration for the 90 day reports, an agent does it for me.

Edited October 13, 2017 by bazza73
Addition

[ExpatDraco]

I don't even know who the owner is of the house I rent, so I filled in a TM30 myself, noted that I'm the renter and brought it to Jomtien immigration. They accepted it and wrote me the note and putted it in my passport.

[1337markus]

Housemaster is responsible but they wont do it. So the farang gets the extra paperwork , time wasted at immigration and the fine!

[OJAS]

9 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

Chiang Mai Immigration. I don't present at Immigration for the 90 day reports, an agent does it for me.

In which case the lack of a TM30 could well be an issue for you. That said, there are conflicting reports about the requirement for this form in recent postings on this thread on the Chiang Mai forum:-

 

So, at the end of the day, therefore, it will probably all depend on (a) the particular officer you deal with in connection with your retirement extension, and, (b) more importantly, which side of the bed they had got out of that morning.

 

[bazza73]

48 minutes ago, OJAS said:

In which case the lack of a TM30 could well be an issue for you. That said, there are conflicting reports about the requirement for this form in recent postings on this thread on the Chiang Mai forum:-

 

So, at the end of the day, therefore, it will probably all depend on (a) the particular officer you deal with in connection with your retirement extension, and, (b) more importantly, which side of the bed they had got out of that morning.

 

The agent I use is apparently very well connected within Chiang Mai Immigration, so that may explain why it has not been an issue before. Each of my extensions have only taken about 15 minutes, which I understand is fast. Fingers crossed.

[Tanoshi]

7 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

The agent I use is apparently very well connected within Chiang Mai Immigration, so that may explain why it has not been an issue before. Each of my extensions have only taken about 15 minutes, which I understand is fast. Fingers crossed.

The agent you use may be well connected, but not very well informed.

 

If your paying him to act on your behalf, you have to question why he didn't inform you of the requirement for someone to file the TM30.

[brewsterbudgen]

The agent I use is apparently very well connected within Chiang Mai Immigration, so that may explain why it has not been an issue before. Each of my extensions have only taken about 15 minutes, which I understand is fast. Fingers crossed.

Get him to process your extension and maybe his connections will work!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[bazza73]

8 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Get him to process your extension and maybe his connections will work!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

He's processed my extension for the last 6 years. Will keep the thread posted, appointment next Tuesday.

[Media1]

14 hours ago, elviajero said:

It's the responsibility of the House-master (not you), or Owner, or Possesor (probably you) to submit the report. 

 

Usually immigration would be looking for the owner owner of the condo or their agent to report.

 

Any3one responsible for the report could be fined if a report isn't made.

True on paper but some offices try tout put it back onto the alien

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, bazza73 said:

He's processed my extension for the last 6 years. Will keep the thread posted, appointment next Tuesday.

Has the agent you use mentioned the TM30 and fine issue or are you only talking about a hypothetical?

 

If the agent hasn't mentioned it, I think you'll be OK.

 

If the agent has mentioned it, he/she's the one that should be paying any fine, not you. If the agent refuses, it may be TFAA.

[StevieAus]

4 hours ago, bazza73 said:

The agent I use is apparently very well connected within Chiang Mai Immigration, so that may explain why it has not been an issue before. Each of my extensions have only taken about 15 minutes, which I understand is fast. Fingers crossed.

Did mine in Chiang Mai with an agent last Tuesday only had to sign and have the photo taken

The re entry permit took longer but the new retirement extension has to be photocopied first

[bazza73]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Has the agent you use mentioned the TM30 and fine issue or are you only talking about a hypothetical?

 

If the agent hasn't mentioned it, I think you'll be OK.

 

If the agent has mentioned it, he/she's the one that should be paying any fine, not you. If the agent refuses, it may be TFAA.

Not hypothetical, the visa agent mentioned both the TM30 and the fine. Also said I should not be paying it, that was the responsibility of condo management or my landlord's agent.

[JackThompson]

43 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

Not hypothetical, the visa agent mentioned both the TM30 and the fine. Also said I should not be paying it, that was the responsibility of condo management or my landlord's agent.

Can anyone here cite a case where "condo management" filed a TM-30 for a foreign long-term lease-holder?  How would they keep track of the comings and goings of foreigners?  Are there stipulations in anyone's contract to notify the condo-mgmt under certain travel-conditions?  I've never seen this - but maybe others have.

 

Short-term rentals, hotels, guesthouses - it makes sense they can do the TM-30 filings, as visitors tend to "check in" and then "check out" when leaving the area.  But long-term folks tend to travel outside of the province or country sometimes.  How would they know?

[bazza73]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Can anyone here cite a case where "condo management" filed a TM-30 for a foreign long-term lease-holder?  How would they keep track of the comings and goings of foreigners?  Are there stipulations in anyone's contract to notify the condo-mgmt under certain travel-conditions?  I've never seen this - but maybe others have.

 

Short-term rentals, hotels, guesthouses - it makes sense they can do the TM-30 filings, as visitors tend to "check in" and then "check out" when leaving the area.  But long-term folks tend to travel outside of the province or country sometimes.  How would they know?

They don't. Which makes it all BS anyway.

[Djw6]

On 10/13/2017 at 9:27 AM, peterb17 said:

Do what a couple of friends did- pay the fine- then deduct it from the rent.

Although the wording is a bit vague, it is up to the landlord .

 

You did not say where you are, in Jomtien we have to report within 24 hrs after being out of the country- they put a new blue bit of paper into your passport related to the TM30.

 

 

Jomtien immigration told me that, if i only go out for a one day border run then i don't need to apply for a new TM 30, but if it's for a week I need to.  2-5 days who knows?

[Get Real]

Seems to me, regarding the TM30, that it always comes down to who can possibly do it. Not talking about the rules here, but it seems to me that most offices accept a TM30 filed by the person it regards staying at the address. Therefore it´s just as simple as do it yourself. Then the problem is gone.

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, Get Real said:

Seems to me, regarding the TM30, that it always comes down to who can possibly do it. Not talking about the rules here, but it seems to me that most offices accept a TM30 filed by the person it regards staying at the address. Therefore it´s just as simple as do it yourself. Then the problem is gone.

 

I've moved 3 times into privately rented accommodation and in each case, being aware of the requirements in the Immigration Act, stipulated that the landlords supplied copies of their Tabien Baan and ID card.

When I filed the TM28, I also filed the TM30 as the 'tenant', along with copies of the landlords TB and ID.  Never had Immigration blink an eye.

I don't know if the landlords were even aware of the requirements to file the TM30.

 

I'm a grown man, living in a foreign Country now, I don't expect my Mother or anyone else to do my dirty laundry anymore.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Tanoshi

[brewsterbudgen]

Seems to me, regarding the TM30, that it always comes down to who can possibly do it. Not talking about the rules here, but it seems to me that most offices accept a TM30 filed by the person it regards staying at the address. Therefore it´s just as simple as do it yourself. Then the problem is gone.

Better still to live in an area where Immigration don't require a TM30 at all, like the main Immigration office in Bangkok!

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[bazza73]

21 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Better still to live in an area where Immigration don't require a TM30 at all, like the main Immigration office in Bangkok!

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I should imagine the flood of paper if the TM30 was enforced in Bangkok would be too much for even the most determined bureaucrat. However, no thanks - price is too high. I wouldn't live in Bangkok if you paid me.

[JimGant]

Quote

Who is responsible? The landlord ( never here ), his agent, or the condo staff?

Do I have any responsibility for the TM30? I certainly don't consider I should be paying any fine.

As Maestro pointed out in post#2, the Immigration Act, para 4, defines "housemaster:"

Quote

"House Master" means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house, whether in the capacity of owner, tenant, or in any other capacity whatsoever, in accordance with the law on people act.

So you, as the tenant, are involved in the reporting requirement -- and fine paying -- pecking order. If it's obvious the landlord ain't going to file -- or the condo agent -- the onus is on you. The landlord or owner could turn para 4 definition back in your direction, if he even gave a hoot, as you too are a 'house master' when it comes to filing TM30's. So, with all its vagueness, best take the situation in hand, and clear up the TM30 situation with Immigration. If you have to pay 1600 baht, you can probably easily absorb that. Try to get a reimbursement from whomever you think is the "House Master" of first responsibility -- but good luck, if they even take note, or particularly if they're cognizant of the para 4 definition of a "House Master." Because it doesn't define who has 'first  responsibility' for filing a TM30.

http://library.siam-legal.com/thailand-immigration-act-b-e-2522/

[elviajero]

37 minutes ago, JimGant said:

as you too are a 'house master' when it comes to filing TM30's.

No he isn't.

 

A house-master is the person named in the house registration book (Tabian Baan) as the 'head of household'. If there is someone nominated.

 

The definition of 'house-master' is to make it clear that it doesn't matter what status the house-master has, they are responsible for the report.

 

In this case the foreign tenant could be classed as the "possessor" of the property, therefore, responsible for the report and liable for the fine.

 

The act specifies that the house-master, or owner, or possessor are responsible.

• The owner is always responsible.
• The person named as the house-master in the Tabian Baan is responsible if they exist.
• The possessor is the catch all in case a house-master doesn't exist. 

Owners do not always live at the property or no about the comings and goings of foreigners, which is why the act gives joint responsibility to the house-master and or possessor.

[Get Real]

1 hour ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Better still to live in an area where Immigration don't require a TM30 at all, like the main Immigration office in Bangkok!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Yep! Thanks for that fantastic input. The question is, though. How long time is that going to be a fact?
Anyway, I will think about it during the next time I sit in front of the pool in the back of my garden doing my TM30, breathing fresh air and opening my first beer. 

Edited October 15, 2017 by Get Real

[JimGant]

Quote

A house-master is the person named in the house registration book (Tabian Baan) as the 'head of household'. If there is someone nominated.

I don't find that in any of the definitions in the Immigration Act. Could you point to your source -- or are you just reading between the lines (which, admittedly, are scraggly when you deal in translation and semantics).