It's 'farang' Not 'falang'!

[Furbie]

I actually use 'goo' when I'm talking about 'self' in a negative way.

Was that you at the Irish X-change?

Edited January 11, 2007 by Furbie

[meadish_sweetball]

All varities of English are taking their own path, and neither Americans (incl. Anglophone Canadians) nor Brits, Irish, Aussies, Kiwis or South Africans can claim they 'speak like Shakespeare'.

Some aspects of an older variety of English have been preserved in American English, some were preserved in the Australian and Kiwi accents, but that does not mean that present day inhabitants of any of these areas 'speak like Shakespeare', just as little as the Queen does. The language did not stop developing just because it came to a new location, nor was it frozen because it stayed.

Languages are never static, they change over time and they feed on and cross-fertilize each other (cross-fertilization is especially common among backpackers on bus trips in Australia). Political and cultural centres exert a stronger influence over language development than cultural backwaters, hence the world of today, for better or for worse, is mostly influenced by North American English.

As for the Isaan/Lao dialect/language debate:

The majority of Tai (as in the larger language family) dialects spoken in North Eastern Thailand are linguistically part of the Lao dialect continuum, but since for political reasons these areas now belong to Thailand and since the Central Plains with Bangkok is the cultural centre, they are under influence from Standard Thai - through school and TV. If the political situation persists, they will grow more and more like Central Thai, and will likely reach a point where they are so close to Standard Thai that the Lao link will be a lot less obvious.

There are rather large differences within Isaan as well. A rural Khorat oldtimer speaking to somebody just as old from Mukdahan might find that both their vocabulary and tonal patterns differ.

Anyone who has been to Vientiane will see that they mostly watch Thai TV if they can get it. The cultural influence is going in that direction. Comparison: Many Americans will not know what a 'biscuit' is and might misunderstand Brits when they talk about 'fannies', 'spanners' etc. Still, the vast majority of Brits do know what a 'cookie' is and will not ask if it is 'alright if I light up a fag' in a Greenwich Village coffee shop.

Along the same lines, Laotians are much more likely to be aware of what Thais call things than vice versa. When in Luang Prabang on holiday, we ordered 'sai oua' (a spicy sausage with herbs). My girlfriend who is from the North of Thailand asked the waiter what type of meat it was made from, and he replied 'neua khoo-ay' (Lao for buffalo meat)... which was a bit of a shock to her as 'khuay' with the same tone in Standard Thai means 'dick'... (the Standard Thai word for buffalo is 'khwaay'). He had no problems understanding us though.

Laotians who go on to higher studies, and study English, generally use Thai language course books and dictionaries - they can read Thai letters, whereas most Thais can not read Lao letters (although it wouldn't take more than a week to teach anybody interested to do so, they are that close, and Lao has had a spelling reform which takes care of a lot of exceptions found in Thai writing).

*You could compare Isaan's situation with that of the Southern part of Sweden which used to belong to Denmark - in the three southernmost counties, they speak dialects which originally stem from Danish and not Swedish, but after almost 350 years of Swedish rule, standard 'Scanian' as it is called in English has more similarities with standard Swedish than with standard Danish (although the rural Scanian dialects are still difficult to understand for Swedes from other parts).

[sbk]

C'mon Meadish, you are ruining everyone's fun bashing everyone else with your logic and information

[phibunmike]

C'mon Meadish, you are ruining everyone's fun bashing everyone else with your logic and information

I'm just amazed this ran to nine pages

(and it's probably not over yet...)

[kayo]

Wikipedia...

Oh, and by the way, friends, please do not use Wikipedia as a reference: it is not an authorative source, it is written by you and me

Isn't our whole world written by you and me ?

[Tarragona]

Of course the people in Isaan say they speak "Isaan". Would you really expect them to say they speak Lao? Tell someone from Isaan they are ethnically Lao, or they are speaking Lao, and they may well get upset with you.

I'm amazed at all the people based in Isaan who say that the people there don't refer to themselves or the language they speak as Lao. I'd always thought it was quite normal because the locals in my wife's village in Ubon most certainly do.

It is true that if they thought someone was suggesting they were actually a Laotian from Laos, or was using the term in a derogatory manner, they would be upset and point out that they are Isaan not Lao. Otherwise they are quite happy to be Lao in informal situations.

Edited January 11, 2007 by Tarragona

[pokoal2000]

Its frustrating. I have been teaching kids for year now and they know R and L, one day they say Fried rice, next day is flied lice again. The more difficult is to make them to pronounce the last letter in many words. Belt becomes a bell, Milk is mill etd. Good fun hey.

[jing jing]

Considering that there are many different dialects spoken in Isaan, most bearing little or no resemblance to each other, it would be incorrect to refer to any of those languages as "Isaanese." If you ask an Isaan villager what language they usually speak, they might say Lao, Suay, or Khmer, but they will never say Isaan. On the other hand, I've heard Bangkokians refer to the language spoken upcountry as pasaa Isaan, kind of lumping it all together as country bumpkin lingo.

[Neeranam]

If you ask an Isaan villager what language they usually speak, they might say Lao, Suay, or Khmer, but they will never say Isaan.

Ask a few of the millions that live in Khon Kaen city or Udon and they might well say they speak Isarn - they tell me I do. Not all people in Isarn live in small villages.

[gburns57au]

For those who know.....no explanation is necessary

For those who dont know....no explanation is possible.

[jing jing]

If you ask an Isaan villager what language they usually speak, they might say Lao, Suay, or Khmer, but they will never say Isaan.

Ask a few of the millions that live in Khon Kaen city or Udon and they might well say they speak Isarn - they tell me I do. Not all people in Isarn live in small villages.

Try asking them sometime, Neeranam -- I can't speak for Khon Kaen or the rest of Isaan, but where I live folks do not say they speak Isaan. Most speak Khmer, some speak Lao, a few speak Suay. Maybe in parts of Isaan where everyone speaks Lao they just call it Isaan... dunno.

On topic for just a moment, in my neck of the woods they say "farang" in town, and sometimes "barang" in the village. Rolled "r," short "sara a" first syllable, low tone second syllable.

[Barryz]

The word ฝรั่ง Farang is really just the tip of the ice-berg.

A large majority of Thais drop the "r" for an "L" it's easier and literally just rolls of the tongue.

I can think of many words containing ร ror reau that are changed to an L sound

for example ร้อน meaning hot could be changed to ล้อน

Having said that I do have a pet hate and that is the กิน gin (eat) being changed to a kin. Makes me angry? no

Laugh? yes

I know that I make mistakes too and I am sure that many a person has had a good laugh at my pronounciation mistakes at one time or another.

Heck, I can't read through all of this thread, so apologies if what I'm about to write has already been written. The confusion between 'r' and 'l' amongst some Asians and (perhaps) all Chinese is a standing joke. Erection instead of election; flied lice instead of fried rice, etc.

However, I suspect there are many other confusions. Recently in Koh Samui, a girl from the Petchabun area, pronounced Tesco Lotus as Tecco Rotat. Apparently there's a problem with 's' sounds in the middle and at the end of words.

[meadish_sweetball]

However, I suspect there are many other confusions. Recently in Koh Samui, a girl from the Petchabun area, pronounced Tesco Lotus as Tecco Rotat. Apparently there's a problem with 's' sounds in the middle and at the end of words.

Transcribed with Haas, it would be "théd-khôo roo-thád".

The only 'mistake' in there from a Thai point of view is substituting the 'l' in Lotus for 'r' - this phenomenon is known as 'hypercorrection' which is when speakers in an effort to say things correctly or according to the prestige pronunciation, overuse or misuse a pronunciation, word, or form. Here, the prestige pronunciation is associated with rolling /r/ as opposed to /l/ - only it does not apply in this particular case because the word is spelt with an /l/ and not an /r/.

The rest of it is regular Thai pronunciation if you read out the name of the supermarket according to Thai writing and pronunciation rules - so you will hear the same pronunciation (apart from the erroneous /r/) in TV or radio commercials directed to Thais. It is simply what they call it.

According to Thai pronunciation rules, a syllable cannot end with an /s/ sound: all the letters which signify /s/ - ส ซ ศ ษ in Thai, only do so when they occur at the beginning of a syllable.

They become a suppressed /d/ or /t/ when they occur at the end of a syllable. Further, words that end in '-us' are pronounced like the word 'us' in British English (but with a silent /d/ or /t/ sound at the end).

[chuchok]

Considering that there are many different dialects spoken in Isaan, most bearing little or no resemblance to each other, it would be incorrect to refer to any of those languages as "Isaanese." If you ask an Isaan villager what language they usually speak, they might say Lao, Suay, or Khmer, but they will never say Isaan. On the other hand, I've heard Bangkokians refer to the language spoken upcountry as pasaa Isaan, kind of lumping it all together as country bumpkin lingo.

As with many of the posts here,everybody has their own point of view.

I know Isaan people who will tell you they speak "Issan"

[Richard W]

According to Thai pronunciation rules, a syllable cannot end with an /s/ sound: all the letters which signify /s/ - ส ซ ศ ษ in Thai, only do so when they occur at the beginning of a syllable.

Whose Thai pronunciation rules? According to Ratchabandit on-line, Thai words can end in /s/. Look up ก๊าซ at the Royal Institute Dictionary online. However, such words may also end in /t/.

[Furbie]

All varities of English are taking their own path, and neither Americans (incl. Anglophone Canadians) nor Brits, Irish, Aussies, Kiwis or South Africans can claim they 'speak like Shakespeare'.

Some aspects of an older variety of English have been preserved in American English, some were preserved in the Australian and Kiwi accents, but that does not mean that present day inhabitants of any of these areas 'speak like Shakespeare', just as little as the Queen does. The language did not stop developing just because it came to a new location, nor was it frozen because it stayed.

Languages are never static, they change over time and they feed on and cross-fertilize each other (cross-fertilization is especially common among backpackers on bus trips in Australia). Political and cultural centres exert a stronger influence over language development than cultural backwaters, hence the world of today, for better or for worse, is mostly influenced by North American English.

As for the Isaan/Lao dialect/language debate:

The majority of Tai (as in the larger language family) dialects spoken in North Eastern Thailand are linguistically part of the Lao dialect continuum, but since for political reasons these areas now belong to Thailand and since the Central Plains with Bangkok is the cultural centre, they are under influence from Standard Thai - through school and TV. If the political situation persists, they will grow more and more like Central Thai, and will likely reach a point where they are so close to Standard Thai that the Lao link will be a lot less obvious.

There are rather large differences within Isaan as well. A rural Khorat oldtimer speaking to somebody just as old from Mukdahan might find that both their vocabulary and tonal patterns differ.

Anyone who has been to Vientiane will see that they mostly watch Thai TV if they can get it. The cultural influence is going in that direction. Comparison: Many Americans will not know what a 'biscuit' is and might misunderstand Brits when they talk about 'fannies', 'spanners' etc. Still, the vast majority of Brits do know what a 'cookie' is and will not ask if it is 'alright if I light up a fag' in a Greenwich Village coffee shop.

Along the same lines, Laotians are much more likely to be aware of what Thais call things than vice versa. When in Luang Prabang on holiday, we ordered 'sai oua' (a spicy sausage with herbs). My girlfriend who is from the North of Thailand asked the waiter what type of meat it was made from, and he replied 'neua khoo-ay' (Lao for buffalo meat)... which was a bit of a shock to her as 'khuay' with the same tone in Standard Thai means 'dick'... (the Standard Thai word for buffalo is 'khwaay'). He had no problems understanding us though.

Laotians who go on to higher studies, and study English, generally use Thai language course books and dictionaries - they can read Thai letters, whereas most Thais can not read Lao letters (although it wouldn't take more than a week to teach anybody interested to do so, they are that close, and Lao has had a spelling reform which takes care of a lot of exceptions found in Thai writing).

*You could compare Isaan's situation with that of the Southern part of Sweden which used to belong to Denmark - in the three southernmost counties, they speak dialects which originally stem from Danish and not Swedish, but after almost 350 years of Swedish rule, standard 'Scanian' as it is called in English has more similarities with standard Swedish than with standard Danish (although the rural Scanian dialects are still difficult to understand for Swedes from other parts).

"Many Americans will not know what a 'biscuit' is..." Sorry buddy, we have cookies and biscuits in America - they are just two different things. Cookie would be what you call a biscuit, while we have something else a bit more like a small roll which we call a biscuit.

"but that does not mean that present day inhabitants of any of these areas 'speak like Shakespeare'" I never said we did, I made the point that it was not the Americans who wholesale changed the English language as implied by another poster. My point was that American English is closer to the English of Shakespeare's time. Of course we can always say the language is based on German, and then heavily influenced by Latin, French and Greek.

While on the topic, a previous poster tried to say the USA has regional dialects - aside from our accents (and those speaking Spanish or some form of Indian), the English in USA is nearly 100% homogeneous. I can only think of a few words that vary by region like calling something soda vs. pop, or hero vs. hoagie or submarine sandwich.

[elkangorito]

Designing a nuclear power station is easier than trying to deal with the living entity called 'language'.

[chanchao]

> Whose Thai pronunciation rules? According to Ratchabandit on-line, Thai words can end in /s/.

> Look up ก๊าซ at the Royal Institute Dictionary online. However, such words may also end in /t/.

" ก๊าซ " does not qualify as a Thai word. Thai words don't end in an S sound, period. For foreign / borrowed words that are transliterated / used in Thai, the final S changes to the suppressed 'd' ('t'). Yes for sure there are Thais who studied some English and think it fancy to use the original English pronunciation, or show off that they can actually say 's' (or F, or L) at the end of a word and will pronounce it like that.

Typically nobody goes to jail for either choice.

Edited January 12, 2007 by chanchao

[teletiger]

If it's Doyoda (Toyota), why isn't it Desco?

I always thought northern Thailand was Lanna.

Legards.

[meadish_sweetball]

According to Thai pronunciation rules, a syllable cannot end with an /s/ sound: all the letters which signify /s/ - ส ซ ศ ษ in Thai, only do so when they occur at the beginning of a syllable.

Whose Thai pronunciation rules? According to Ratchabandit on-line, Thai words can end in /s/. Look up ก๊าซ at the Royal Institute Dictionary online. However, such words may also end in /t/.

It's funny you should mention this word. I watched the late night news discussion last night, where two TV journalists discuss the newspaper headlines. There had been an incident involving a gas transportation vehicle, and the two journalists had distinctly different pronunciations of the word 'gas', one saying ก๊าซ /káas/ and the other saying แก๊ด /káed/ (short vowel sound).

I remember AUA lists ก๊าซ as an exception to the general rule of permissible syllable finals, so point taken. Still, in relation to โลตัส as in this case, I have yet to see a word that ends with ส, ศ, or ษ be pronounced with a /s/ sound in syllable-final position.

[tropo]

There are many different 'r' sounds in English and other languages. Rolling (medium, soft and strong roll), hard, soft.

I suspect that the 'r' sound in Thai is some hybrid of 'l' and 'r'.

The use of 'r' in "farang" would only be an approximation. I don't believe in the concept of "correct" pronunciation of a language. Look at English as a fine example. Anyone discussing what is the correct way to pronounce English is going to get into a lot of difficulty.

It's usually pedantic English teachers who are fixated on what is "correct" and what is not. As long as a person can be understood, that is "correct" enough.

Edited January 12, 2007 by tropo

[chanchao]

> If it's Doyoda (Toyota), why isn't it Desco?

Different 'T' in Thai. In English you basically only have one 'T' to use (written anyway). In Thai you have a bunch, and two distinctly different sounds that both often end up as 'T' in English.

Toyota (Thailand) itself uses: โตโยต้า So that's t-tao. (reference: www.toyota.co.th)

Tesco Lotus itself uses: เทสโก้ So that's t-tahaan (reference: www.tescolotus.net)

So when a Thai reads the name he pronounces it like that, with different 't' sounds.

The latter (t-tahaan / Tesco) is a more aspirated sound, often translated as 'th'. The former is sometimes transliterated as 'dt' in really old books or by some really old people.

> I always thought northern Thailand was Lanna.

Sure. Though not common in daily usage when talking about the North. It's more of a romanticised / travel / culture related word. So indeed Thai Airways Royal Orchid Travel might have a 'Lanna Heritage Tour' in their brochure. However when you're a Thai sales rep for a water pump company and you go visit the North, you typically don't say you're going to 'Lanna'. Note the difference.

Edited January 12, 2007 by chanchao

[In the Rai!]

If it's Doyoda (Toyota), why isn't it Desco?

I always thought northern Thailand was Lanna.

Legards.

The word "larnna" actually means 1 million rice fields..

As for the argument over the R and L in Farang/falang as to whether it makes you sound educated or not..

A tip for you all who think it makes you sound common. Thais dont care if you roll the r or not. They care if you use impolite words yes or if you dont Krup etc but r in farang is not an issue.

As for the Issan debate: I am no expert on Issan but what I do know is that it is refered to as not only a region but also a dialect. Just like Paasa Glarng or kum muang for central and Northern Thai.

Yes alot with Loas heritage can speak Loas and those with Cambodian heritage can speak Khemer but when they speak Thai they speak Issan Thai.

[davidjtayler]

I don't care what I'm called ... just don't want to get mugged by a horny elephant ...

[In the Rai!]

I don't care what I'm called ... just don't want to get mugged by a horny elephant ...

wrong thread I think Dave?

[davidjtayler]

I don't care what I'm called ... just don't want to get mugged by a horny elephant ...

wrong thread I think Dave?

Hello Mr Lai ... I hopped over to escape the horny erephants and now I'm not sure which thread is safer ...

[In the Rai!]

Hello Mr Lai ... I hopped over to escape the horny erephants and now I'm not sure which thread is safer ...

[Briggsy]

If it's Doyoda (Toyota), why isn't it Desco?

I always thought northern Thailand was Lanna.

Legards.

The word "larnna" actually means 1 million rice fields..

As for the argument over the R and L in Farang/falang as to whether it makes you sound educated or not..

A tip for you all who think it makes you sound common. Thais dont care if you roll the r or not. They care if you use impolite words yes or if you dont Krup etc but r in farang is not an issue.

As for the Issan debate: I am no expert on Issan but what I do know is that it is refered to as not only a region but also a dialect. Just like Paasa Glarng or kum muang for central and Northern Thai.

Yes alot with Loas heritage can speak Loas and those with Cambodian heritage can speak Khemer but when they speak Thai they speak Issan Thai.

Thanks again In the Rai. Another sensible and helpful post. In fact it's so sensible you're bound to get the deniers on this thread calling you names. And they'll tell you the earth is flat too!

Edited January 12, 2007 by Briggsy

[chanchao]

> And they'll tell you the earth is flat too!

Any celestial body flat enough to put a beer on is flat enough for me. Earth qualifies.

So on that note, here comes the weekendddddddd!

[klikster]

Ask a Thai to pronounce Hawaii .. it will probably come out something like "Hawaay" .. because that's the way it is officially spelled. (see a menu for Hawiiaan Pizza).

Then write their version and add 'or-ahn and sara-ee" and they will pronounce it perfectly .. well, not counting "Havaii"

I had a conversation with a Thai fried about official western spelling conventions, and they all come from Pali pronunciations.