If you own a Chanote then do you kind of own the land and the power to sell it? Can you get a credit from a land without the Chanote And how to check that a chanote is mortgage free and is not used to get a credit?

[Lou Provencaou]

Hi everybody

 

1)I have heard several times about Thai people using Chanote as a counterpart to hire money from friends, loan Sharks, people making credits in villages and other people/organisms...

Does that mean that if you own the Chanote of a land then you kind of own it or at least own the power to sell it? As a Farang can you buy some land for a friend to work it agricultural way and make money  and own the chanote and then if a problems happen and as you cannot own land pass the Chanote to another Thai friend that you trust 100 % to sell the land? Is it a specific Chanote type? 

 

2)If somebody wants to use a land to make a credit/mortgage, can he do it without the Chanote or is it compulsory?

 

3) how can you check that a Chanote has not been used for a mortgage or a credit with any kind of credit/mortgage institution?

 

Thank you very much in advance for all your help : - )

 

[Peterw42]

 Chanote is the title deed for land, condo, house etc, if you own the property then your name is on the chanote. If the property is used as security for a loan/mortgage then that is noted on the chanote. 

You dont "own" a chanote, it is the document that lists the owner.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Peterw42

[Lou Provencaou]

But if the land is used by somebody ti grow fruits with the name of that Thai person on the Chanote because as a farang you cannot own the land; then if you have a problem with the first person can you pass the Chanote to another trustable Thai person so that she sells the land for you?

[Peterw42]

8 minutes ago, Lou Provencaou said:

But if the land is used by somebody ti grow fruits with the name of that Thai person on the Chanote because as a farang you cannot own the land; then if you have a problem with the first person can you pass the Chanote to another trustable Thai person so that she sells the land for you?

The person who's name is on the chanote is the owner.

You cant "pass" a chanote to another person without a sale going through, transfer tax etc. Then the new owners name is on the chanote.

Possession of a chanote, with someone else's name on it, does not mean control or ownership.

[sometimewoodworker]

Chanote is one (and only one) of the several land titles in Thailand.

You can never own any kind of agricultural land.

You can only give the money to a Thai person for them to own it.

 

You can never have your name on any kind of agricultural land title.

 

Unless the land owner has gone to an illegal lender the mortgage or loan lien is on the back of the land deed, no bank or other legal lender will make a loan without this security (answer to question 2 and 3) 

Edited October 23, 2017 by sometimewoodworker

[cornishcarlos]

The OP is either trolling or has bought land for a GF and now wants to sell that land to a new GF !!! If that is the case, then unfortunately the 1st GF is the legal owner of the land, as such she can borrow money with the land as collateral....

Edited October 23, 2017 by cornishcarlos

[trogers]

Chanote is just the Thai name for Land Title. How does a Land Title denote ownership and encumbrances on the property. The same applies to a Chanote.

[BEVUP]

Sounds like the old story of wife/GF suggesting that family has a good plan to start a Agg business but they need money to buy the land

& of cause they will pay you back over time.

But in the meantime things aren't adding up & all of a sudden they have a new pickup (did they hock the land - everything here is collateral )

& you also start to realize that the land isn't bearing fruits - It all got to hard 

So he has nothing to worry about as he was never able to own any such land but decided to buy it for someone else who didn;t give a sh**t as it didn't cost them

[Arkady]

The safest way to lend money using a title deed as collateral is through the sale or redemption method.  The Land Office registers the deal which is a loan at a certain interest rate with a maximum term of 10 years.  The lender has the use of the land during the loan period.  If the borrower cannot present evidence to the Land Office that he has paid off the loan and interest, the lender can ask the Land Office to transfer the title fully to his name.  If the borrower can present evidence that he has complied with the terms of the loan, he can ask the Land Office to delete the sale and redemtion incumbrance.  

 

A regular mortgage is a lesser form of encumbrance and requires a more involved legal process to foreclose on the land.  With a regular mortgage the borrower retains full title and use of the land until a court order provides for eviction and transfer of title on foreclosure. 

 

An informal way of using a deed is to hold the deed as collateral without any formal mortgage registered on it.  This has no legal force as their is no evidence that the borrower has willingly pledged the land, if no mortgage has been registered on the deed by the Land Office.  The borrower can simply report the deed as lost or stolen and request a new one and sell to another party.  

 

Foreign lenders are supposed to use a Thai foreclosure agent to foreclose on land.  Foreign banks have to pay Thai banks a fee for this service, to enable them to accept land as collateral.  Needless to say any legal proceedings for foreclosure on land are costly and take a long time.    

[glasswort]

6 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

The OP is either trolling or has bought land for a GF and now wants to sell that land to a new GF !!! If that is the case, then unfortunately the 1st GF is the legal owner of the land, as such she can borrow money with the land as collateral....

The OP is either trolling or has bought land for a GF and now wants to sell that land to a new GF

 

A quantum leap.

[cornishcarlos]

59 minutes ago, glasswort said:

The OP is either trolling or has bought land for a GF and now wants to sell that land to a new GF

 

A quantum leap.

 

Not really, if you read between the lines.

[juehoe]

 Chanote is the title deed for land, condo, house etc, if you own the property then your name is on the chanote. If the property is used as security for a loan/mortgage then that is noted on the chanote. 
You dont "own" a chanote, it is the document that lists the owner.

Exactly!

The paper itself has no value. The real owner can go to police and state that he has lost the paper. The land office will then issue a new Chanote. This costs some bath and time, but it is no big issue.

[lime_lh]

If OP wants to get advice, and many here have been there and done that, then OP should come clean with his issue at hand. It sounds rather fishy thus far......

[BEVUP]

55 minutes ago, lime_lh said:

If OP wants to get advice, and many here have been there and done that, then OP should come clean with his issue at hand. It sounds rather fishy thus far......

Certainly does

1- Holding the Chanote of the land

2- You can not do anything with the Chanote if you haven't registered a Mortgage (loan ) on the back

3- You can buy for anyone you like but once it's in their name you have no say (unless above )

4- How can you pass a Chanote that belongs to another person & get someone else to sell it

5- Many Chanotes (thaivisa search )

6- Need Chanote - But as mentioned can get new one

7-Check Land office

Hope you haven't been done over

[MyFriend You]

Lou - maybe you can spell it out exactly what you want to do with this land, then a more accurate solution can be given - sounds like you bought land in someone else's name and now want to change it to another person's name but we can only speculate when we don't have the whole picture.  Not being nosy but I count 3 or 4 questions in one small paragraph.  Spell it out.

Edited October 23, 2017 by TunnelRat69

[Acharn]

11 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Chanote is one (and only one) of the several land titles in Thailand.

You can never own any kind of agricultural land.

You can only give the money to a Thai person for them to own it.

 

You can never have your name on any kind of agricultural land title.

 

Unless the land owner has gone to an illegal lender the mortgage or loan lien is on the back of the land deed, no bank or other legal lender will make a loan without this security (answer to question 2 and 3) 

My emphasis added. If you are not a Thai citizen, you cannot own any land, agricultural or not. This goes back to when the British were still governing Burma and forced the Rattanakosin government to grant them mining and timber concessions, especially in the North, which was only weakly held by the Siamese government at the time. The Thai prefer to forget it, but there was much resentment against the "unequal treaties," which were really a weak form of colonialism.

[manarak]

1 hour ago, Acharn said:

My emphasis added. If you are not a Thai citizen, you cannot own any land, agricultural or not. This goes back to when the British were still governing Burma and forced the Rattanakosin government to grant them mining and timber concessions, especially in the North, which was only weakly held by the Siamese government at the time. The Thai prefer to forget it, but there was much resentment against the "unequal treaties," which were really a weak form of colonialism.

this is not correct.

there are some exceptions provided for by Law, notably for BOI businesses and investors.

one can also, as a foreigner, inherit land. in this case, ownership is only temporary because it must be transferred or sold within a period of time (6 months if I'm not mistaken), but during this time, a foreigner can be the official owner.

[BEVUP]

7 minutes ago, manarak said:

this is not correct.

there are some exceptions provided for by Law, notably for BOI businesses and investors.

one can also, as a foreigner, inherit land. in this case, ownership is only temporary because it must be transferred or sold within a period of time (6 months if I'm not mistaken), but during this time, a foreigner can be the official owner.

1 year apparently

[trogers]

49 minutes ago, BEVUP said:

1 year apparently

Which is insignificant when measured to freehold.

[khunPer]

14 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Chanote is one (and only one) of the several land titles in Thailand.

You can never own any kind of agricultural land.

Not so sure, farmland can be with Chanote title deed, and can be traded and used for other purposes, like any other land with a Chanote title deed – talk from experience...

[khunPer]

15 hours ago, Lou Provencaou said:

1)I have heard several times about Thai people using Chanote as a counterpart to hire money from friends, loan Sharks, people making credits in villages and other people/organisms...

Does that mean that if you own the Chanote of a land then you kind of own it or at least own the power to sell it? As a Farang can you buy some land for a friend to work it agricultural way and make money  and own the chanote and then if a problems happen and as you cannot own land pass the Chanote to another Thai friend that you trust 100 % to sell the land? Is it a specific Chanote type? 

 

2)If somebody wants to use a land to make a credit/mortgage, can he do it without the Chanote or is it compulsory?

 

3) how can you check that a Chanote has not been used for a mortgage or a credit with any kind of credit/mortgage institution?

To my experience and knowledge:

 

1)

a: Yes, Chanote title deed can be used to borrow money, both from banks, and friends, and loan sharks.

b: The owner of Chanote land is listed on the back of the title deed; however, the owner can give proxy to someone else, to sell the land on the owner's behalf. When borrowing from a loan shark, they may demand both title deed and proxy as security. Often the proxy is blanco, i.e. no names filled in. The proxy form can be bought in local paper stores, and is common among Thai, a local Head-of-Village may also have it; often Head-of-Village is used as witness, and then he's also aware about local land ownership and proxies.

c: A foreigner – including Caucasians, called "farangs" – cannot own land in Thailand. However, the foreigner can pay for land with a Thai name as owner on the title deed, but sometime the Land Office demand the foreigner – if they become aware of where the money comes from – shall sign a document stating that the Thai owner has bought the land for her/his own money.

d: The Thai landowner can sign a proxy, and hand the Chanote title deed to someone else, giving power to sell the land.

 

2) 

Having mortgage, or bank loans, on a land, you'll need to hand the title deed over as security; normally the loan or mortgage is registered on the back of the title deed at a Land Office, and the land cannot be transferred to another name without the loan has been paid in full.

 

3)

You can perform due diligence at the Land Office, where the title deed is registered, eventually have a lawyer to do it for you.

[happylarry]

I may be wrong but the impression i get from the op is that the op thinks the chanote copy held  by the owner is the only copy and is unaware that the main copy is held in the land office and can only be accessed officially.

HL

[Lou Provencaou]

So many comments...

 

Thanks for all the informative ones, some are really interesting

: - )

 

For the negatives ones: When somebody tries to figure out and understand better how somethings works why do you need so much to be so negative and sarcastic? If that is fun I enjoy but some people do not seem very fun if I may. Sorry if the way I ask sounds like if I had been stolen or conned somehow as I just try to avoid that (no need to explain me that the best way to become rich in Thailand is to come first very rich...). I try do do something positive and constructive. Thus Please be so kind so as to avoid unecessary idiocy.

 

I just know for my former Thai girlfriend that some people with good work and who have good savings in her village give money to people who need to borrow and take the Chanote as a couterpart untill the whole money is given back. She has also a family member whose work essentially consists in collecting money from people having some and lending it with the Chanote as a counterpart untill the whole amount is paid back at 5% per month and it seemed to work well from him; he is not trying as you can hear sometimes to steal the Chanote even if the money is given back, he is working very honestly (if that can be said so for 5% interest per month) 

 

And so being aware that they control everything through the owning of the Chanote I am trying to figure out if I can do same same starting to buy a piece of land in the future. I have Thai friends that I can fully rely on and I try to figure out how to do in the future.

No I have not been conned or whatever by people buying a pick up with the money I gave for a land. I just try to be more aware ... I have good money but nor the bank nor the insurances are giving a very interesting interest rate nor the apartment that I own ( maybe the stock exchange lottery can but I am allergic to that "lottery" concept that can go down) and as I have heard in several occasions and areas of Thailand that there can be an interesting interest on some fruits land I try to figure out if I can plan something there as I can have the oportunity (I prefer not to explain how and with who and where... because that would obviously lead to "unecessary" or even insulting comments). I do not understand everything at all of the Chanote system and law wich is why I try to have things explained here but of course I am aware that I cannot own land in Thailand. Why would I ask that otherwise? I would buy land in my name if that was possible...

: - ) sanook that so many people explain that I cannot own land in Thailand, from my questions you should guess that I am aware of that even if I do not speak a perfect English (please forgive me for it is not my mother tongue and I try my best to be clear).

 

In resume I just try to figure out if things can be somehow controlled owning a Chanote and how it works as I am aware of a few problems that can happen...

And as I am wise enough not to let the control of my money/my investment to somebody else just like that as we all know that it is and industry in our beloved Thailand (very very very beloved concerning myself) to manipulate things when some important amounts are involved and as I am currently checking my potential business partner. If I get involved in that I will can afford to loose what I will invest and not do it before that I know better "Khun partner".

 

I will ask more about some people's interesting answears to my questions. In some case I need a bit of translation done because some things are difficult to understand. I don't get some words.

 

It is (as usual in Thailand) more difficult than I would have thought but some comments are really interesting and helpfull for me and thanks very much for those.

 

Bye for now

ChokdeeKap everybody

[Lou Provencaou]

(For private reasons and thank you in advance to respect that, I prefer to avoid speaking too much there about myself and my potential partner but as nobody knows that then no need to comment about and to let us know how stupid can be your speculations as you would be surprised by the truth wich you cannot really guess...)

[trogers]

You are basically asking if you, a foreigner, can behave like a illegal Thai money lender or loan shark.

 

Sure. But don't expect legal protection. Your protection would only come from the corrupt and ignorance.

 

While you hold on to chanotes of borrowers, make sure your passport doesn't get held by the authorities. Your business pyramid comes crashing down when you are blacklisted from entering the country.