Saudi crown prince promises 'a more moderate Islam'

[craigt3365]

It's being reported this is mainly window dressing.  The Kingdom is in trouble.  But they aren't doing anything to relax their grip over their country and it's religion.

 

They, along with Iran, are the biggest problem in the Middle East.

[FreddieRoyle]

A more moderate Islam? It's like being a little bit pregnant. There is no such thing as "moderate islam", although there is such a thing as being serious about islam vs not being serious about it, which is why they are so dangerous, as we see again and again a "normal" bloke can turn into an axe wielding jihadist with no warning, this happens when he puts knowing the theory(not serious) into practise(run for cover).

[craigt3365]

10 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

....and Jews are still barred from entering S.Arabia.

 

When I read the title for this thread, I likened it to pouring a bucket of water into a brown pond and claiming it's now cleaner.

 

Almost all non-muslims are barred from entering SA.  Close to impossible to get a visa.  And if you do, you'll need a full time handler and can only visit certain areas.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

It's being reported this is mainly window dressing.  The Kingdom is in trouble.  But they aren't doing anything to relax their grip over their country and it's religion.

 

They, along with Iran, are the biggest problem in the Middle East.

 

Although no one is holding his breath expecting changes, doubt that there are any reports (about window dressing or otherwise) which are not opinion pieces. That Saudi Arabia got issues economically and socially, isn't news and isn't exactly a secret. But relative to other places in the ME, they are nowhere near the brink or are  completely ignoring the situation.

 

Whether any of this will be translated to actual changes (and by that, I mean positive ones) is difficult to say. It should be acknowledged, though, that introducing such changes will take time, and will meet resistance from conservative forces. If Saudi Arabia is to avoid an Arab Spring or an ISIS situation, rulers ought to tread carefully. While I'm not a fan of the Sauds, the alternatives could be much worse.

[notmyself]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

While I'm not a fan of the Sauds, the alternatives could be much worse.

 

Aye. Could end up creating a place like ISIS are fighting for where women and most others are subjugated and extra judicial killings are common.......

[thaibeachlovers]

22 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Could be. Then again, the crown prince does have a certain thing about making changes and taking action. Not that his judgement and execution (no puns intended) are top notch. Maybe he's got notions of shifting the agreed upon balance between crown and clergy.

 

Meanwhile, at least they dream big:

 

Saudi Arabia just announced plans to build a $500 billion mega-city that's 33 times the size of New York City

http://www.businessinsider.com/saudi-arabia-mega-city-jordan-egypt-oil-2017-10

 

Richard Branson to invest in Saudi Arabia tourism project

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/richard-branson-saudi-arabia-red-sea-tourism-project-islands-lagoon-madain-saleh-a7979286.html

The royals have been buying off the mutawa ever since they found oil. I doubt there is enough oil under Saudi to pay them enough to make a real difference.

The day they build a church in Riyadh I'll believe he's serious.

 

If Branson is investing in Saudi, he's just joining a very long list of western companies that have been exploiting Saudi since they discovered oil.

 

City 33 times the size of NY in a country with no water.

That'll be the day.

Riyadh depends on desalinated water piped inland.

The fossil water that sustains some places is disappearing from over exploitation.

Edited October 26, 2017 by thaibeachlovers

[Credo]

Hopefully, AQ and ISIS are the death-throws of extreme Islam.   It will take a renaissance type of awakening to get them out of the Middle Ages and if that happens there are going to be a lot of losers -- The Mullahs, the Royals and a host of other elites who will not give up their power and influence easily.   

 

I know a number of Muslims who lived in the US.   Some of them, who were born and raised in the US, were very moderate.   They had been raised in a western environment and had adapted their life-style accordingly.   

 

Christianity has changed greatly over time (in spite of the the occasional fundamentalist groups and sects).   Islam needs to do the same thing.   

 

There is nothing inherently different about Islam than many different religions that prevents this other than the stone-age mentality which those in power keep the people shackled to in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran.   

 

The Saudi's promise a moderate Islam, but it is the elites which have the most to lose, so we will have see how this all works out.   

 

[notmyself]

13 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

A more moderate Islam? It's like being a little bit pregnant. There is no such thing as "moderate islam", although there is such a thing as being serious about islam vs not being serious about it, which is why they are so dangerous, as we see again and again a "normal" bloke can turn into an axe wielding jihadist with no warning, this happens when he puts knowing the theory(not serious) into practise(run for cover).

 

Yes for sure because it is a binary question. These <word> <deleted> are so full of their own supposed superiority where the mishmash of reason becomes a position that they think it is reasonable to take. In this case, as many others, it is a binary position where something is either true or not true. So in this context (of reason) lets explore what moderate Islam means. They (and others such as Creationists) go by their dogma and as much as I hate religion (irrational belief) I cannot criticize them for their belief because they are doing exactly what it says on the tin so how the <f> is fundamentalism... extremism.? How about radicals? Someone who does not follow the book is called a moderate and never a radical? 

 

 

[gamini]

On 25/10/2017 at 5:37 PM, tubby johnson said:

Seriously? Visit those countries before making glib remarks. Ask non-muslim minorities in both countries how they feel about living in a "moderate" islamic society.

I worked in Indonesia and Malaysia for 10 years. I have dozens of non muslim close freinds in those countries. The recent mayor of jakarta was a Christian.

[Morch]

17 hours ago, notmyself said:

 

Aye. Could end up creating a place like ISIS are fighting for where women and most others are subjugated and extra judicial killings are common.......

 

17 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The royals have been buying off the mutawa ever since they found oil. I doubt there is enough oil under Saudi to pay them enough to make a real difference.

The day they build a church in Riyadh I'll believe he's serious.

 

If Branson is investing in Saudi, he's just joining a very long list of western companies that have been exploiting Saudi since they discovered oil.

 

City 33 times the size of NY in a country with no water.

That'll be the day.

Riyadh depends on desalinated water piped inland.

The fossil water that sustains some places is disappearing from over exploitation.

 

Two posts from the all or nothing brigade:

 

@notmyself

 

Saudi Arabia, for all its faults, cannot be compared with how life was in areas under ISIS's control. This is the ME, so "things can't get worse" does not apply. For its own interests, Saudi Arabia keeps such outfits from running rampant within the kingdom. Try and imagine how things would look like if this control was to be eradicated.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

As said, changes, if any, will be slow and less dramatic than some would hope for. Keeping expectations low is one thing, setting up too high a goal too early is another.

 

The project does seem a bit SF, but they do have a quite a bit to throw around. On the other hand, if they stay the course and do nothing - how long will they last? Guess that at least on some level there's acknowledgement of the need to adapt (which goes back to the religious issue).

[notmyself]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

Two posts from the all or nothing brigade:

 

And one from the white noise brigade.

 

Reminds of this lady I know who I was speaking to the other day or maybe a week ago. Lovely girl I have known for some time (I borrowed her stepladders) and at some stage she apologised for not understanding because (according to her) of her poor English. Like yourself, it is not her command of language that fails her.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, notmyself said:

 

And one from the white noise brigade.

 

Reminds of this lady I know who I was speaking to the other day or maybe a week ago. Lovely girl I have known for some time (I borrowed her stepladders) and at some stage she apologised for not understanding because (according to her) of her poor English. Like yourself, it is not her command of language that fails her.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, gamini said:

I worked in Indonesia and Malaysia for 10 years. I have dozens of non muslim close freinds in those countries. The recent mayor of jakarta was a Christian.

The recent mayor of jakarta was a Christian.

The Muslim mob that harassed him sort of proves our point that there is no such thing as a "good" moderate Muslim.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

Two posts from the all or nothing brigade:

 

@notmyself

 

Saudi Arabia, for all its faults, cannot be compared with how life was in areas under ISIS's control. This is the ME, so "things can't get worse" does not apply. For its own interests, Saudi Arabia keeps such outfits from running rampant within the kingdom. Try and imagine how things would look like if this control was to be eradicated.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

As said, changes, if any, will be slow and less dramatic than some would hope for. Keeping expectations low is one thing, setting up too high a goal too early is another.

 

The project does seem a bit SF, but they do have a quite a bit to throw around. On the other hand, if they stay the course and do nothing - how long will they last? Guess that at least on some level there's acknowledgement of the need to adapt (which goes back to the religious issue).

On the other hand, if they stay the course and do nothing - how long will they last?

 

In the case of the Saudi royals, they will last as long as the money does. Because they overbreed like most Saudis, the royal family is consuming ever more vast amounts of the oil revenue, which obviously leads to less available to buy off the mutawa.

From my time there, IMO the country is destined, once the money runs out, to return to a medieval feudal system, as it used to be before oil. They have clever people, like the doctors I worked with, but they have no interest at all ( that I saw ) in becoming a better society for all.

[Ron19]

A completely off topic post has been removed.

[metisdead]

A post containing Thai language has been removed as this is the English language part of the forum. 

 

A troll post was removed as well. 

[Morch]

18 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

On the other hand, if they stay the course and do nothing - how long will they last?

 

In the case of the Saudi royals, they will last as long as the money does. Because they overbreed like most Saudis, the royal family is consuming ever more vast amounts of the oil revenue, which obviously leads to less available to buy off the mutawa.

From my time there, IMO the country is destined, once the money runs out, to return to a medieval feudal system, as it used to be before oil. They have clever people, like the doctors I worked with, but they have no interest at all ( that I saw ) in becoming a better society for all.

 

Well, I don't know about "becoming a better society for all", but obviously some at positions of power are not oblivious regarding the need for change. Even if their motivation is grounded in self-preservation, it would spell a certain measure of improvement, provided some of words turn out to be more than hot air.

 

I'm not very optimistic as to the introduction of changes being swift, successful or all encompassing - but there does seem to be some kind of shift (especially with the younger generation of regional decision makers) from the previous paradigm of simply maintaining the state of things.

[notmyself]

4 hours ago, metisdead said:

A post containing Thai language has been removed as this is the English language part of the forum.

 

I'm sorry.

[tubby johnson]

On 10/27/2017 at 10:54 AM, gamini said:

I worked in Indonesia and Malaysia for 10 years. I have dozens of non muslim close freinds in those countries. The recent mayor of jakarta was a Christian.

And what happened to your Christian mayor of Jakarta? Sentenced to jail on a spurious charge of "insulting islam".

 

Moderate islam??? 

[notmyself]

12 minutes ago, tubby johnson said:

Moderate islam??? 

 The term is an insult to any thinking person because it is meaningless. If I, dear member, asked what yellow tastes like... what would you think? Not all questions are binary but if I ask if someone is dead or alive and am given the answer neither, he was lightly killed. What do I think about that person? There is no word in English so I wantonly broke forum rules and posted a word in Thai which I saod sorry for both before and after. Is there another word for thesaurus?

[thaibeachlovers]

I just watched a short interview a western woman "reporter" had with the ?Crown Prince in front of a hall full of Saudis, in which he apparently ( it was translated )said that he is in a hurry to change.

I hope that his security guard is very good.

 

Meanwhile, apparently, Pakistan and Indonesia become even more fundamentalist, and the IS maniacs want to convert all of the Phillipines to the most revolting interpretation of Islam. Even Malaysia is on a backwards track.

It's not looking good.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 10:16 AM, Morch said:

 

Well, I don't know about "becoming a better society for all", but obviously some at positions of power are not oblivious regarding the need for change. Even if their motivation is grounded in self-preservation, it would spell a certain measure of improvement, provided some of words turn out to be more than hot air.

 

I'm not very optimistic as to the introduction of changes being swift, successful or all encompassing - but there does seem to be some kind of shift (especially with the younger generation of regional decision makers) from the previous paradigm of simply maintaining the state of things.

the younger generation of regional decision makers

IMO have no power, though they may think they do. That lies, IMO, with the wahabi mutawa. The mutawa allow them, IMO, to behave corruptly as long as they give them ( mutawa )  to control the population.

 

It behooves them to remember what happened to the Shah of Iran when he tried to "modernise" the country too fast.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

the younger generation of regional decision makers

IMO have no power, though they may think they do. That lies, IMO, with the wahabi mutawa. The mutawa allow them, IMO, to behave corruptly as long as they give them ( mutawa )  to control the population.

 

It behooves them to remember what happened to the Shah of Iran when he tried to "modernise" the country too fast.

 

How much power and/or will to affect change is yet to be determined. But as for pace, I think this lesson was driven home both by examples such as you gave, and the consequences of the Arab Spring. Bit of a tightrope act.

[Thorgal]

On 28-10-2017 at 2:51 AM, tubby johnson said:

And what happened to your Christian mayor of Jakarta? Sentenced to jail on a spurious charge of "insulting islam".

 

Moderate islam??? 

 

Just to highlight that what's called todays Saudi Arabia was a traditional, moderated Arab, Muslim region till 1932.

The women didn't wear a hijab or a niqab. It was even permitted in that time to make paintings of women. Some regions remained free of Wahabbism but the original cultural and religious freedom vanished completely after the 50's and 60's.

 

Unfortunately, the 3rd Kingdom of the Saud ousted the Hashemites (now in Jordan region) out of SA after 1932 with help of the Western countries who won the WW1 and devided the previous Ottoman empire. By the way : the Hashemites have allways been the guardians of Medina and Mekkah before the reign of the Sauds.

 

The problem of radicalisation originated in a period of 1800's when the Wahabbist sects, read clans were pushed back in Kuwait, waiting for their conquest against moderated or traditional Islam through the Sauds. With the help of Western countries.

 

Assuming todays implementation of moderated Islam by a clan member of Saud is not really credible.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Thorgal

[bendejo]

Moderate Islam, aka Modern Islam.  They tried that in Malaysia in 2005, touted by the new PM at the time.  It lasted maybe a few days.  The PM didn't last much longer either.  He wasn't such a bad guy for a Malaysian politician IMO. 

On the other hand the Catholic Church did modernize a bit in the 1960s with Vatican II.  I was in a Catholic grade school at the time and didn't realize the impact until later on:  no more meatless Fridays, nuns not required to keep the severe clothing, to name a few.  At least it was a step to try to advance from the Middle Ages.  With Islam forget it, not with so many people actively fighting for a return to 7th century.  Making Islam Great Again.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by bendejo