Tax Specialist in Chiang Mai

[NancyL]

I think there's a little more to the "savings clause" than the few sentences quoted by most people.  If you read the "technical explanation" of the tax treaty on the IRS website for the "savings" paragraph, they state "For purposes of these “expatriation” rules, the United States treats an individual as having a principal purpose to avoid tax if (a) the average annual net income tax of such individual for the period of 5 taxable years ending before the date of the loss of status is greater than $100,000, or (b) the net worth of such individual as of such date is $500,000 or more." 

 

So, if someone has been living primarily in Thailand for more than five years, has a private pension income less than $100,000 per year and a net worth less than $500,000 then it appears the person could indeed be considered a Thai resident for tax purposes under the treaty.

 

But, I'm not a tax professional, I'm just someone who paid a tax professional to file an amended return with the IRS.  I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

 

[NancyL]

Somehow, the IRS has managed to brainwash most Americans into thinking they have to pay taxes on all their income, no matter the source and no matter where or how it is earned.  Yet, there are a complex set of rules, laws, treaties, etc in place that provide exemptions, allowances and exceptions.  These are not "loopholes", but rather just realities.  To utilize them isn't "cheating", yet many people think this way, part of why Trump doesn't want to release his tax returns.  And I'm no Trump supporter.  

 

In my early life, I worked for a Fortune 100 company that fully believed in utilizing all the tax advantages possible.  In fact, there were two sets of books (accounting records) kept for the company.  The "tax books" and the "business books".  Reason being is that those of us who ran business units in the company wouldn't have had the guidance we needed to run our business units if we used the "tax books" for making business decisions.  

 

Later in life, Hubby and I had a greenhouse/nursery business.  When we started this business, we sought advice from a both a lawyer and an accountant who served farms and greenhouse businesses, the country agricultural extension agent and a bank that served agricultural businesses.  All told us "your business is a farm, for tax purposes it's a farm, not a retail operation."   And lo and behold, there are many tax advantages available to farm operators not available to retail store owners.  In fact, it was to our advantage not to incorporate or set up a LLC, but rather to operate as a Ma-and-Pa, with everything related to the business in my name and all other assets related to our retirement and investments being transferred to my husband.  There were many years when we didn't pay any federal income tax or just a few thousand dollars, yet we lived just fine.  Why?  Because we were farmers, taking advantage of the many tax advantages available to farmers and we utilized a good accountant who specialized in our industry, i.e. small family-owned greenhouse operators in Michigan.

 

I hope this is what we've found here, ie. a tax accountant who is specialize in a small niche, i.e. American retirees who have private pension income less than $100,000 per year and are long-term residents of Thailand.  I don't know.  I could be wrong.  Check this thread in about six weeks and I'll let you know.   

 

 

 

 

[evenstevens]

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2560 at 7:38 PM, NancyL said:

 

 

The U.S. has tax treaties with nearly 80 countries, but Malaysia isn't one of them.  This tax treaty and the implications on taxation of pension income is the reason we've decided not to relocate to Malaysia, but rather to remain here in Chiang Mai. 

from my limited knowledge the above comes as a surprise. as i do  know   a retired  Amercian couple who  settled in Malaysia some years back   under the same scheme   and it was plain sailing  under their circumstances etc etc    ,i also note    opening  up  a  bank  account difficulities   in a following post by you

.that certainly comes as a surprise too,  may i ask     why did,nt you take  their advice and send the monies through your  Thai  bank a/c which would enable you to have a account in opened in Malaysia,    a nice late arvo to all

[NancyL]

35 minutes ago, evenstevens said:

from my limited knowledge the above comes as a surprise. as i do  know   a retired  Amercian couple who  settled in Malaysia some years back   under the same scheme   and it was plain sailing  under their circumstances etc etc    ,i also note    opening  up  a  bank  account difficulities   in a following post by you

.that certainly comes as a surprise too,  may i ask     why did,nt you take  their advice and send the monies through your  Thai  bank a/c which would enable you to have a account in opened in Malaysia,    a nice late arvo to all

E/S, surely you realize that when you transfer funds from one bank to another through a third bank, you're going to incur additional transfer costs vs. having a direct transfer from one to the other.  Americans can transfer funds into Bangkok Bank using a system called ACH transfer, a very low cost way to move money because Bangkok Bank's NYC branch means that U.S. banks "recognize" it as a U.S. bank under the ACH system.  No need to incur expensive wire transfer fees.  In addition, our U.S. credit union won't wire transfer funds to foreign banks (many U.S. banks and credit unions will, but ours won't).  This means that yes, we would have had to follow the advice of the Malaysian bankers and route funds through Bangkok Bank even if they were willing to accept money from the U.S.  There are other benefits to being in our credit union and we don't plan to close down our accounts.

 

When your American friends retired to Malaysia, the U.S. may not have been enforcing the FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act), requiring Americans to report their bank accounts abroad if the combined balance of all their foreign accounts exceed $10,000 at any point during the year.  The U.S. gov't has asked foreign banks to report accounts of Americans to the U.S. gov't.  All the Thai banks have chosen to comply.  Apparently the Malaysian banks told the U.S. gov't to go pound pavement, they aren't reporting, and responded by refusing to accept money deposited from the U.S., at least by small account holders or new account holders like we would be.

 

Indeed, we found the immigration department in Malaysia to be most welcoming, as were real estate agents and others we'd have to work with on implementing a move.  So, I don't doubt that your American friends found "smooth sailing" with their MM2H visa and settlement in Malaysia.  And there isn't really a problem with them being in Malaysia as far as FATCA is concerned, as long as your friends are reporting the existence of their Malaysian (and other foreign) bank accounts to the U.S. gov't each year.

 

However, we've decided to wait and see how the amended tax filings turn out.  If we receive the refund we anticipate, we'll stay in Thailand, rather than move to Malaysia, where there is no Malaysia-U.S. tax treaty and thus we'd have to continue to pay U.S. taxes on our private pension income as U.S. citizens, not as Malaysian tax residents. 

[evenstevens]

47 minutes ago, NancyL said:

E/S, surely you realize that when you transfer funds from one bank to another through a third bank, you're going to incur additional transfer costs vs. having a direct transfer from one to the other.  Americans can transfer funds into Bangkok Bank using a system called ACH transfer, a very low cost way to move money because Bangkok Bank's NYC branch means that U.S. banks "recognize" it as a U.S. bank under the ACH system.  No need to incur expensive wire transfer fees.  In addition, our U.S. credit union won't wire transfer funds to foreign banks (many U.S. banks and credit unions will, but ours won't).  This means that yes, we would have had to follow the advice of the Malaysian bankers and route funds through Bangkok Bank even if they were willing to accept money from the U.S.  There are other benefits to being in our credit union and we don't plan to close down our accounts.

 

When your American friends retired to Malaysia, the U.S. may not have been enforcing the FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act), requiring Americans to report their bank accounts abroad if the combined balance of all their foreign accounts exceed $10,000 at any point during the year.  The U.S. gov't has asked foreign banks to report accounts of Americans to the U.S. gov't.  All the Thai banks have chosen to comply.  Apparently the Malaysian banks told the U.S. gov't to go pound pavement, they aren't reporting, and responded by refusing to accept money deposited from the U.S., at least by small account holders or new account holders like we would be.

 

Indeed, we found the immigration department in Malaysia to be most welcoming, as were real estate agents and others we'd have to work with on implementing a move.  So, I don't doubt that your American friends found "smooth sailing" with their MM2H visa and settlement in Malaysia.  And there isn't really a problem with them being in Malaysia as far as FATCA is concerned, as long as your friends are reporting the existence of their Malaysian (and other foreign) bank accounts to the U.S. gov't each year.

 

However, we've decided to wait and see how the amended tax filings turn out.  If we receive the refund we anticipate, we'll stay in Thailand, rather than move to Malaysia, where there is no Malaysia-U.S. tax treaty and thus we'd have to continue to pay U.S. taxes on our private pension income as U.S. citizens, not as Malaysian tax residents. 

many thks for your detailed post    you certainly  have  a complex situation  on your hands ,    sure my Amercians friends were not on the same train

be very interesting     to see how it all   pans out,   good luck

[JimGant]

Quote

If you read the "technical explanation" of the tax treaty on the IRS website for the "savings" paragraph, they state "For purposes of these “expatriation” rules, the United States treats an individual as having a principal purpose to avoid tax if (a) the average annual net income tax of such individual for the period of 5 taxable years ending before the date of the loss of status is greater than $100,000, or (b) the net worth of such individual as of such date is $500,000 or more." 

Nancy, where can I find that?

 

Curiously, the numbers you mention (5years, avg 100k income tax, net worth 500k) and the term "loss of status" all point to the demarcation point of when someone who renounces his or her citizenship has to pay a penalty, because it's determined renunciation was for the purpose of tax avoidance.

 

I seriously doubt you've renounced your citizenship; thus, filing amended tax returns for past years, when you were a citizen, will just crash and burn (IMO), due to the savings clause.

 

You haven't paid this accountant in full yet, have you? Please tell me payment is contingent on success with the amended returns.

 

Anything you can add that has you confident about your outcome? I actually hope this guy has found a loophole in the savings clause. But, I just can't see it (but, my CPA license lapsed 8 years ago).

[Dante99]

20 hours ago, NancyL said:

I think there's a little more to the "savings clause" than the few sentences quoted by most people.  If you read the "technical explanation" of the tax treaty on the IRS website for the "savings" paragraph, they state "For purposes of these “expatriation” rules, the United States treats an individual as having a principal purpose to avoid tax if (a) the average annual net income tax of such individual for the period of 5 taxable years ending before the date of the loss of status is greater than $100,000, or (b) the net worth of such individual as of such date is $500,000 or more." 

 

So, if someone has been living primarily in Thailand for more than five years, has a private pension income less than $100,000 per year and a net worth less than $500,000 then it appears the person could indeed be considered a Thai resident for tax purposes under the treaty.

 

But, I'm not a tax professional, I'm just someone who paid a tax professional to file an amended return with the IRS.  I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

 

The $100,000 in the first paragraph is tax and in the second paragraph it is pension income????

[NancyL]

8 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

The $100,000 in the first paragraph is tax and in the second paragraph it is pension income????

Yeah, you're right.

[NancyL]

21 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Nancy, where can I find that?

 

Curiously, the numbers you mention (5years, avg 100k income tax, net worth 500k) and the term "loss of status" all point to the demarcation point of when someone who renounces his or her citizenship has to pay a penalty, because it's determined renunciation was for the purpose of tax avoidance.

 

I seriously doubt you've renounced your citizenship; thus, filing amended tax returns for past years, when you were a citizen, will just crash and burn (IMO), due to the savings clause.

 

You haven't paid this accountant in full yet, have you? Please tell me payment is contingent on success with the amended returns.

 

Anything you can add that has you confident about your outcome? I actually hope this guy has found a loophole in the savings clause. But, I just can't see it (but, my CPA license lapsed 8 years ago).

You're right, we haven't renounced our citizenship, just filed amended returns.  You can look up the google the accountant yourself.  He's been conducting seminars around Thailand and advertising heavily on Facebook.  Thomas Carden.  Says he's an IRS enrolled agent, one of the few in Thailand.  Currently working on his PhD in tax accounting with this private pension income tax feature as his thesis.

 

You say you were a CPA, but did you practice specialize in expat tax accounting in Thailand?  Especially as it pertains to retirees?  As we learned when we had the greenhouse/nursery business, it often pays to find a professional who specializes in exactly your niche.  

 

My hat is off to you for having been a CPA.  I started out as an accounting major in college, but washed out in Cost Accounting.  Switched to an easier major, Mechanical Engineering.  Did alright with it.  

[JimGant]

Quote

So, if someone has been living primarily in Thailand for more than five years, has a private pension income less than $100,000 per year and a net worth less than $500,000 then it appears the person could indeed be considered a Thai resident for tax purposes under the treaty.

Actually, if you live in Thailand for half a year, you're considered a Thai resident, for both Thai taxation authority and treaty purposes. Doesn't, however, obviate the need to file US tax returns for US based pensions.

 

I did google Thomas Carden. His degrees are from the University of Phoenix, which wouldn't make me too comfortable; but, as an IRS certified enrolled agent, most of whom have more tax smarts than general practice CPAs (me), then he *should* know his stuff (or, is that how to obfuscate...?). And, of course, if he's been successful already with clients in your situation, then he's on to something (did he hold such success out to you?). That overworked IRS clerks (remember, Congress cut the IRS budget substantially) could just be overwhelmed with paper volume and code language wouldn't surprise me. And you get the benefit of the doubt.

 

But, somehow I have thoughts of Elmer Gantry when I ponder this Thomas Carden.

 

But, yeah, keep us advised.

 

 

 

 

[NancyL]

Thomas Carden looks more like Elmer Fudd than Elmer Gantry and he didn't "hold out" his success with other clients until asked about it.  After the events with a former president of CM Expats Club and his promises of "too good to be true" return for investments of retirement savings for newly arrived retirees, I've been very reluctant to get caught up in anything financial involving another expat here in Thailand, so I've approached this with caution.  The only benefit to this guy is the fee he is paid to file tax returns.  

 

I agree that the likelihood of an IRS audit is low.  When we had the greenhouse/nursery business our accountant did some things that caused me to raise an eyebrow, yet she said we were much more likely to have a sales tax audit from the state (which we did) than an IRS audit.  And having been through a sales tax audit back when I was managing a business unit for that Fortune 100 company, I was already meticulous about obtaining tax certificates from the wholesale customers every year, something few in our industry did.  Usually, most greenhouse/nursery operators just accepted the word of a retail store or landscaper who they were "tax exempt".  Wrong!  A surprising number of landscapers, in particular, were not, they were fly-by-night operations and had never bothered to apply for a tax certificate, let along file monthly file sales tax reports.

[evenstevens]

God  Stone  The  Crows  it seems to me   a absoulate mess

in 2000  , i saw a  licienced financial agent in Sydney who worked for a private company,and  around 2002 that company was listed on the Sydney  Stock  Exhange

I layed all my cards on the table (sold a very good business which i started from scratch etc etc),and she duly set up a portfolio for my loot to be invested accordingly, all taxes paid etc etc and each fincancial year  since then   a full disclousure of my portfolio   is sent to our Goverment Centre Link Dept and til this day  its worked a treatsure their were substantial fees involved to set up my portfolio, and   agent fee,s and govt  taxes followed,but its been worth every cent spent to have my house in order,and more importantly   never lost a wink of sleep that my loot   would be nicked

what i cannot come to terms with(no personal insult intended)why are you,s getting your house into order now   particular  in Thailand,  it seems not right to me,  perhaps the  Amercia system etc etc  is different to OZ   any way again  the very best of luck to you and hubby  anyway life was,nt meant to be easy a famous quote from a former P.M.of OZ  who was a  ????

[JimGant]

Nancy,

Yeah, the chance of getting audited is slim, so you may well get your taxes back. Also, since an EA filed for you, he, not you, would be on the hook for any fraud charges -- should somehow there be an audit.

 

The Code, and the IRS explanation of this in their publications, can sometimes be subject to interpretation -- thus grey areas that can be taken advantage of. Not sure where Elmer Fudd sees a grey area -- in fact, the IRS technical explanation of the Thai - US tax treaty explicitly states that private pensions are subject to the savings clause. Is it possible you could share what he said in the Form 8833? Also, his amended filings weren't on Form 1040NR, were they?

 

Oh, the '5years, $100k taxation, and $500k net worth' you mentioned -- in what context was that brought up? ('cause, as mentioned, this pertains to renouncing citizenship scenarios). Curious if Elmer Fudd used these numbers in his snake oil presentation...

[suzannegoh]

2 hours ago, NancyL said:

Thomas Carden looks more like Elmer Fudd than Elmer Gantry and he didn't "hold out" his success with other clients until asked about it.  After the events with a former president of CM Expats Club and his promises of "too good to be true" return for investments of retirement savings for newly arrived retirees, I've been very reluctant to get caught up in anything financial involving another expat here in Thailand, so I've approached this with caution.  The only benefit to this guy is the fee he is paid to file tax returns.  

 

You say that he didn’t “hold out his success” excluding retirement income from US taxes until asked, but how did it come up? Did someone in the audience know about that loophole and ask him to elaborate or did he bring it up during his presentation and elaborate when people in the audience were surprised that you could do that?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 11/7/2017 at 12:48 PM, NancyL said:

Yes, JimGant, the U.S. private pension income and IRA distributions are declared on the amended tax returns and then listed as being non-taxable.  Also included with the amended returns is IRS form 8833 "Treaty-Based Return Position Disclosures Under Section 6114 or 7701(b)", the key form that the canned tax software like Turbo Tax apparently doesn't have.  On the form, the tax accountant wrote an explanation of the provisions of the tax treaty that apply in our case and the reason why our private pension and IRA distributions are not taxable.  It's "boilerplate" language that he uses on similar filings, based on what we've seen with other amended returns he filed for friends.

 

 

Nancy, just to be clear on the question Jim posed above -- how many years of U.S. returns have you filed using the method you describe above, and have those amended returns been accepted by the IRA on the terms you describe?

 

[Bill97]

 
Nancy, just to be clear on the question Jim posed above -- how many years of U.S. returns have you filed using the method you describe above, and have those amended returns been accepted by the IRA on the terms you describe?
 

She has answered this in her earlier posts.


Sent from my iPod touch using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[JimGant]

Quote

https://hodgen.com/ira-distribution-to-u-s-citizen-living-in-switzerland-which-country-taxes-it/

The above Swiss-US info gives a pretty clear-forward situation of how double taxation is dealt with. Both the Thai and Swiss tax treaties with the US are pretty much cookie cutter examples of the OECD and UN examples. And, as shown, your IRA (not Roth IRA) distributions are first taxable in country of residence -- both in the Thai and Swiss treaties. And savings clause language is the same. So, if this US citizen taxpayer moves from Switzerland to Thailand, what changes? Nothing that I can see. He's obligated to first pay taxes to Thailand (but maybe excepted due to the 'not brought into country in year earned'), then files same income with his 1040, but taking a tax credit for the Thai taxes (if any) paid. Possible downside to this is: You pay more taxes to Thailand than you would to the US  -- so you're then out-of-pocket the difference between the credit allowed and the Thai taxes paid.

 

My only argument with this article is the need to file a Form 8833, to " to invoke the treaty provisions to protect you from the IRS." In my reading, everything is already covered in the Treaty, to include tax credits, to protect you from the IRS. Thus, in this case, I would not file a Form 8833.

 

Now, in Nancy's situation, Elmer Fudd has seen a loophole in the treaty language, and therefore is required to file a Form 8833 to explain this loophole. Please, Nancy, can we see that boilerplate language he's used to end run the system.....

[suzannegoh]

This story about Thai-US tax treaty potentially allowing IRA distributions to escape taxation from any country is fascinating.  I’m wondering if there’s any way to get a definitive answer about whether that’s correct.  It seems as though Nancy getting her prior years’ taxes back might not settle the issue because it could just mean that her filing slipped through.  If Mr Carden is correct, that could greatly change the economics of retiring abroad for Americans, but so much so that it seems implausible. 

[neilrob]

Suzannegoh you might want to read the interesting article cited by Jim Gant in post #48. This includes an analysis of the law by the IRS in respect of a US retiree living in Switzerland (which has a similar tax treaty). This concludes that " Taxpayer’s IRA distributions are in fact subject to U.S. tax under Article 1(2) of the Treaty. Taxpayer is only eligible for a refund of U.S. tax to the extent that the United States will credit the tax paid to Switzerland in respect of his IRA distributions received".

 

However, if Nancy receives a refund then I for one will be rushing to submit my own amended returns the next day!

[JimGant]

Quote

If Mr Carden is correct, that could greatly change the economics of retiring abroad for Americans, but so much so that it seems implausible. 

You think......?  I'll be crying for days over all those taxes I really didn't have to pay, 'cause I converted my IRAs to Roth IRAs, when I could just have cashed in my conventional IRAs, and sent the money to Thailand.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

21 hours ago, Bill97 said:

She has answered this in her earlier posts.

I don't see that.

 

I see she said she's filed amended returns.

 

I did not see when or for how many years.

 

And I didn't see any indication of whether the IRS has accepted/approved her amended returns, and granted any refunds as a result of them.

 

If and when Nancy posts here that she's received refund check(s) back from the IRS on the basis of her amended returns, that's when we'll have some idea what to make of Mr. Carden's advice.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

FWIW, here's the website for the firm handing out the tax advice being mentioned here:

 

http://aitaxadvisers.com/

 

The two people listed first on their About Us page both claim degrees from the Thomas Jefferson School of Law in San Diego:
 

Quote

 

Bar pass rates

The July 2016 first time taker pass rate for TJSL was 31% for the California bar exam, vs. a statewide average of 62%.[16]

 

Quote

 

In 2013, the National Law Journal reported the college has the worst unemployment rate after graduation (31.5%) amongst all law schools in the country.^[30]
 

Employment Outcomes: According to the law professor blog, The Faculty Lounge, based on 2012 ABA data, only 28.8% of graduates obtained full-time, long term positions requiring bar admission (i.e., jobs as lawyers), 9 months after graduation, ranking 192nd out of 197 law schools.^[31]

 

 

 

Quote

U.S. News & World Report has reported that the average Thomas Jefferson student graduates with $131,800 in debt and 95% of students graduate in debt.^[33] On March 22, 2012, U.S. News & World Report included Thomas Jefferson in its list of "10 Law Schools That Lead to the Most Debt." ^[34] The Wall Street Journal also ran a story in June 2012 listing TJSL as one of the 'bottom five' schools for 2011 graduate employment.^[35]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_School_of_Law

 

The bio on the person being mentioned here says he's pursuing a " a Doctoral Degree in International Tax and Financial Services Law at Thomas Jefferson School of Law."  I don't see any mention of the school offering a doctoral degree in that subject, though they do seem to have related master's program.

 

http://www.tjslgraduateprograms.com/featured-navigation/degree-offerings.html

 

Perhaps it's a reference to this:
 

Quote

 

The online Doctor of Juridical Science (JSD) Degree Program is a postdoctoral program designed for aspiring legal academics wishing to pursue sustained independent study, which includes substantial legal research and writing.  It is Thomas Jefferson School of Law’s most advanced law degree designed for academics seeking to pursue careers as professors and distinguished law scholars.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JimGant]

Quote

If and when Nancy posts here that she's received refund check(s) back from the IRS on the basis of her amended returns, that's when we'll have some idea what to make of Mr. Carden's advice.

Actually, we'll know that no one is home at the IRS to have time for audits on middle-rollers..

 

Quote

The IRS has lost about 20,000 full-time staffers since 2010. That’s a big slice out of workforce that is now about 80,000. About one-third of the compliance staff, those who get taxpayers to pay, was lost. There were twice as many revenue officers in 1954, and there are fewer criminal investigation special agents than at any time since 1971. The number of audited individual tax returns is at its lowest point in 14 years. Criminal investigations are down 11 percent from last year and more than a third below 2010. The number of recommended prosecutions dropped by more than a third from four years ago.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/11/07/irs-chief-departs-blasting-congress-for-budget-cuts-threatening-tax-agency/?utm_term=.7b898680c909

Quote

says he's pursuing a " a Doctoral Degree in International Tax and Financial Services Law at Thomas Jefferson School of Law."  I don't see any mention of the school offering a doctoral degree in that subject,

John, he says he's "pursuing" it. As it doesn't exist, he, understandably,  hasn't found it yet.

[NancyL]

On 11/9/2017 at 11:49 AM, evenstevens said:

God  Stone  The  Crows  it seems to me   a absoulate mess

in 2000  , i saw a  licienced financial agent in Sydney who worked for a private company,and  around 2002 that company was listed on the Sydney  Stock  Exhange

I layed all my cards on the table (sold a very good business which i started from scratch etc etc),and she duly set up a portfolio for my loot to be invested accordingly, all taxes paid etc etc and each fincancial year  since then   a full disclousure of my portfolio   is sent to our Goverment Centre Link Dept and til this day  its worked a treatsure their were substantial fees involved to set up my portfolio, and   agent fee,s and govt  taxes followed,but its been worth every cent spent to have my house in order,and more importantly   never lost a wink of sleep that my loot   would be nicked

what i cannot come to terms with(no personal insult intended)why are you,s getting your house into order now   particular  in Thailand,  it seems not right to me,  perhaps the  Amercia system etc etc  is different to OZ   any way again  the very best of luck to you and hubby  anyway life was,nt meant to be easy a famous quote from a former P.M.of OZ  who was a  ????

E/S we're not moving our investment portfolio out of the U.S. or firing (sacking) our long-term U.S. based-financial adviser, just using IRS-enrolled accountant that is resident in Bangkok, instead of the canned software program I had been using to calculate our taxes.  We ran all this by our U.S. financial adviser and he said it looked good to him, but quickly pointed out that he isn't a tax accountant and thought we were smart to locate someone who is  specializing in our specific niche.

[NancyL]

To answer a few questions, Mr. Carden filed amended returns for the previous three years.  It's my understanding that's the limit to how far back someone can file amended returns.  This is done with a Form 1040X "Amended U.S. Individual Individual Income Tax Return" and Form 8833 "Treaty-Based Return Position Disclosure Under Section 6114 or 7701(b)"

He included a 1-1/2 page discussion of the tax treaty and how it applies in our situation.  Yes, it's boilerplate language because it's the same language he used in filing amended returns for a friend in a similar situation.   I do not think it would be ethical to reproduce this 1-1/2 document here.  If you want the benefit of Mr. Carden's services then you should contact him.

 

As far as "holding out" his success, he was asked a direct question during the seminar about his success rate and if any of his clients have been audited.  This is when he said he's been filing returns for U.S. retirees in resident in Thailand for three years, and yes sometimes the IRS initially refuses, asking for more evidence that the person is indeed resident in Thailand, but once that documentation is supplied, then the tax filing is accepted.

 

He didn't say anything about the  $100,000 tax liability or $500,000 net worth -- that was something I found in my reading of the "technically explanation" of the treaty.  He didn't mention this in his submission of Form 8833 to the IRS.

 

As for bringing up "similar" tax treaties with between the U.S. and other countries, let's remember that this is case specific to Thailand.  

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for the added info, Nancy.

 

So I'll assume from your answer above, that you've yet to receive any refunds or other confirmation from the IRS that your amended refunds have been accepted....

 

[NancyL]

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Thanks for the added info, Nancy.

 

So I'll assume from your answer above, that you've yet to receive any refunds or other confirmation from the IRS that your amended refunds have been accepted....

 

Correct.  We mailed the amended returns about a month ago, via EMS and the IRS responds via USPS.  Mr. Carden says it takes about 6 - 8 weeks for the IRS to process amended returns, so we really don't expect to to know anything for another month.  Stay tuned.

 

Hubby just informed me that he was talking with someone whose friend has used Mr. Carden for several years, had an IRS audit, and everything was found to be OK.  This person spoke very highly of Mr. Carden.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, NancyL said:

Correct.  We mailed the amended returns about a month ago, via EMS and the IRS responds via USPS.  Mr. Carden says it takes about 6 - 8 weeks for the IRS to process amended returns, so we really don't expect to to know anything for another month.  Stay tuned.

 

Hubby just informed me that he was talking with someone whose friend has used Mr. Carden for several years, had an IRS audit, and everything was found to be OK.  This person spoke very highly of Mr. Carden.

 

I wish you the best of luck with that, and hope you've got a windfall coming your way... one that you're actually able to keep.

 

Just have to remember, with the IRS, you're never legally free and clear until quite a few years down the road from any particular tax filing. IIRC, they always have the ability to go back and challenge prior stuff, even stuff that they originally accepted.

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[suzannegoh]

Correct.  We mailed the amended returns about a month ago, via EMS and the IRS responds via USPS.  Mr. Carden says it takes about 6 - 8 weeks for the IRS to process amended returns, so we really don't expect to to know anything for another month.  Stay tuned.

 

Hubby just informed me that he was talking with someone whose friend has used Mr. Carden for several years, had an IRS audit, and everything was found to be OK.  This person spoke very highly of Mr. Carden.

How much did he charge to file amended returns for the last 3 years?  It seems as though in the worst case that’s all that you’d be out if his interpretation of the tax treaty is rejected.

 

 

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, suzannegoh said:

How much did he charge to file amended returns for the last 3 years?  It seems as though in the worst case that’s all that you’d be out if his interpretation of the tax treaty is rejected.

 

 

Yes, you're right.  All we'd be out is his fee.  It's not like the cases where so-called IFA's ride into town and get people to turn over their life savings to them.  As I pointed out to EvenStevens, we're not changing anything about our investments.

 

As for his fee, I think you should contact him to discuss your specific situation.  It is definitely a fee along the lines of what you'd pay an accountant in the U.S., not a "Thai wage".