Trump releases some JFK files, blocks others under pressure

[Rimmer]

A post and a reply trying to hijack the topic has been removed, topic is about release of JFK files not about US overseas campaigns , or atom bombs or Geneva accords.

[Goldbear]

It will be interesting. Maybe fresh sets of eyes can get some nuggets of information out of the records. 

 

 

[Orton Rd]

One of the best documentaries out of hundreds, in 8 parts I think, this one mentions the 1992 records act at the start

 

 

[Nemises]

 
Lots of documentaries provide credible evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald could NOT have fired all 3 bullets in such a short time from that particular (very old at the time) bolt action rifle.
 
Question.... Does anyone still seriously believe the Warren Commission’s “findings” that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter?

[canuckamuck]

1 hour ago, Gregster said:

 
Lots of documentaries provide credible evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald could NOT have fired all 3 bullets in such a short time from that particular (very old at the time) bolt action rifle.
 
Question.... Does anyone still seriously believe the Warren Commission’s “findings” that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter?
 

Don't forget the magic bullet that ricocheted around the car causing all sorts of injury and damage, also the fact that the bullet clearly exits the rear of JFK's skull but LHO was allegedly shooting from behind.

The official story is impossible from many perspectives

[binjalin]

6 months and it will all be out right now there are more important topics like the DNC paying for the 'Russia' report on Trump

Edited October 27, 2017 by binjalin

[CaptHaddock]

3 hours ago, Gregster said:

 
Lots of documentaries provide credible evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald could NOT have fired all 3 bullets in such a short time from that particular (very old at the time) bolt action rifle.
 
Question.... Does anyone still seriously believe the Warren Commission’s “findings” that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter?
 

There is little reason to suppose that Oswald fired any shots that day.  The paraffin test to his face showed negative for nitrates indicating he had not fired a rifle that day.  No one among the Dallas PD, Secret Service, or FBI sniffed the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository to determine if it had been fired recently.  Although it was later reported that three empty shell casings were found in the TSBD that day, the initial reports and photos show two empty shells and one live round.  No one ever saw Oswald with the M-C rifle at the TSBD or, indeed, in any other location at any time. 

 

Oswald himself denied shooting anyone, which one might dismiss as normal criminal exculpation.  However, no other presidential assassin or attempted assassin ever denied that crime before or since. 

[Thongkorn]

Apparently It could have been avoided, A Mystery Phone call from Grimsby England, to a Cambridge paper telling them that something big was about to happen, and that they should phone the American Embassy and warn them , the paper did not and the rest is History.

[bendejo]

Richard Nixon referred to the JFK assassination as "the whole Bay of Pigs thing."  I think that says it all right there, the rest is just operational details.  All this stuff is just to sell magazines, movies etc.

 

 

[watcharacters]

13 hours ago, thaihome said:

Are you referring to the "theory " that a SS agent accidently shot JFK with an AR-15 from the following backup car??

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/accidental-assassin-jfk-theory-alleges-secret-service-agent-fumbled-gun-f2D11634276

 

 

Here is what I'm referring to

 

 

 

 

TH 

 

 

 

No, I wasn't referring to that theory.  

 

I'm talking about such things as the failure to properly vet the buildings  along the parade route to going against protocol  and having a route with a candy cane shape such as the  left turn off Houston Street onto Elm Street.  

 

 There's also the matter of actual direct protection of the Kennedy car itself.  

 

 

There's a video on youtube showing the instance  of a SS agent being told to return to a follow up car rather than  protect JFK's car.    It shows the agent shrugging his shoulders in what appears to be exasperation.

 

Guaranteed the list goes on and on.   

 

But carrying on,  why on earth would the crowd at the scene  rush towards the grassy knoll and disregard the book depository when they were reacting to a gunshot sound.  

 

Naturally the commission failed with intention to not question witnesses who saw activity in and around the parking lot behind the fence  directly behind the grassy knoll.

 

 

There are literally not hundreds but rather thousands of case details that leave one speechless.

 

For real?  There were never any notes taken by the Dallas Police Department when they interviewed a person  (LHO) suspected of murdering the President of the USA?

 

It's an insult to the intelligence of everyone for the government from 1963 on to expect anyone to believe the hogwash known as the Warren Commission Report.

 

[watcharacters]

5 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Don't forget the magic bullet that ricocheted around the car causing all sorts of injury and damage, also the fact that the bullet clearly exits the rear of JFK's skull but LHO was allegedly shooting from behind.

The official story is impossible from many perspectives

 

 

And to add to that the bullet miraculously appeared on a gurney in Parkland hospital.     It's condition was absolutely pristine  after causing all the damage it was alleged to have caused.   What a " Magic Bullet" it turned out to be, indeed.

[CaptHaddock]

5 hours ago, watcharacters said:

But carrying on,  why on earth would the crowd at the scene  rush towards the grassy knoll and disregard the book depository when they were reacting to a gunshot sound.  

This is actually an interesting point.  For fifty years film narrators have routinely described the crowd rushing up the grassy knoll as in pursuit of a shooter or shooters and everyone else has unthinkingly repeated the claim.  On the face of it this notion is ridiculous.  Is it at all plausible that unarmed civilians are intending to pursue and confront armed shooters who have just killed a man?  Has such a thing ever happened?  It certainly didn't happen with the recent shootings in Paris.  It's really a ludicrous idea.  It is much more likely that the crowd ran up the grassy knoll, because that was the shortest path out of Dealey Plaza and out of the line of fire.  The cops who were rushing up the incline were a different story, because that's their job. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by CaptHaddock

[Nemises]

There is little reason to suppose that Oswald fired any shots that day.  The paraffin test to his face showed negative for nitrates indicating he had not fired a rifle that day.  No one among the Dallas PD, Secret Service, or FBI sniffed the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository to determine if it had been fired recently.  Although it was later reported that three empty shell casings were found in the TSBD that day, the initial reports and photos show two empty shells and one live round.  No one ever saw Oswald with the M-C rifle at the TSBD or, indeed, in any other location at any time. 
 
Oswald himself denied shooting anyone, which one might dismiss as normal criminal exculpation.  However, no other presidential assassin or attempted assassin ever denied that crime before or since. 

LOL.

If you believe Oswald never fired any shots that day, then I believe Elvis is still alive.

[StayinThailand2much]

22 hours ago, amvet said:

Why bring it up in a thread about the JFK assassination?  I don't get the connection?

Who knows, maybe the FBI, or others "threatened" him: "If you release  all remaining classified documents, we might leak something about your tax records, Mr. President..."

 

I agree that all documents should be released. If Oswald was the only assassin, why hide anything? And don't tell me, agents or informants could be compromised after 54 years: "Cannot risk our geriatric undercover agent in Havana, who was 30 when Kennedy was shot, but still is on duty at age 84..." 

 

And yes, I still am curious about a few things, which are hard to explain, e.g. why Oswald, who was supposedly a bad shot, did so well as an assassin. Or, what seems to have never been properly investigated; why did so many (an unproportionate number of) witnesses, die under unusual circumstances?

 

Not saying that it was a big conspiracy, but, obviously, things (photos, etc.) had been tempered with at the time, and that, in my opinion, should not be hidden from the public forever.

Edited October 28, 2017 by StayinThailand2much

[StayinThailand2much]

14 hours ago, Gregster said:

Question.... Does anyone still seriously believe the Warren Commission’s “findings” that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter?
 

 

[StayinThailand2much]

14 hours ago, Gregster said:

Question.... Does anyone still seriously believe the Warren Commission’s “findings” that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter?
 

 

Jerry: "It means, that the spit could not have come from behind. That there had to have been a second spitter. Behind the bushes on the gravelly road."

 

I always recommend watching Seinfeld's parody of the Warren Commission's findings, to understand how ridiculous they were.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2017 by StayinThailand2much

[CaptHaddock]

48 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

And yes, I still am curious about a few things, which are hard to explain, e.g. why Oswald, who was supposedly a bad shot, did so well as an assassin.

 

The  FBI and the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army's Ballistics Research Laboratory conducted shooting tests with the Mannlicher-Carcano found at the TSBD.  They were unable to sight the rifle using the scope, however, until they added two shims under the scope which were not present.  Later CBS conducted firing tests using M-C rifles, but not the one found at the TSBD.  The results varied, but in all tests the shooters were aiming at stationary, not moving, targets invalidating the results.  It's hard to believe that tests this shoddy have been presented seriously as evidence of anything.

[StayinThailand2much]

2 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

It's hard to believe that tests this shoddy have been presented seriously as evidence of anything.

And I am still waiting for an explanation, why JFK's body was rushed from one hospital to another, photos of his skull 'doctored', crucial evidence tampered with, or missing, etc., etc. Releasing FBI and CIA documents about these circumstances would certainly help to defuse certain conspiracy theories. Until this happens, there is the suspicion of 'the fish smelling from the head'...

[CaptHaddock]

25 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

And I am still waiting for an explanation, why JFK's body was rushed from one hospital to another, photos of his skull 'doctored', crucial evidence tampered with, or missing, etc., etc. Releasing FBI and CIA documents about these circumstances would certainly help to defuse certain conspiracy theories. Until this happens, there is the suspicion of 'the fish smelling from the head'...

Pretty fully explained in David Lifton's book, "Best Evidence."    Lifton has promised a last book on the subject to be called, "Final Charade," outlining the conspiracy in the fullest detail to date.  Supposed to be out next year, but the book is already ten years late, so who knows.

[thaihome]

24 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

The  FBI and the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army's Ballistics Research Laboratory conducted shooting tests with the Mannlicher-Carcano found at the TSBD.  They were unable to sight the rifle using the scope, however, until they added two shims under the scope which were not present.  Later CBS conducted firing tests using M-C rifles, but not the one found at the TSBD.  The results varied, but in all tests the shooters were aiming at stationary, not moving, targets invalidating the results.  It's hard to believe that tests this shoddy have been presented seriously as evidence of anything.

I note the particular section in Wikipedia you link has no citation backing it up though I do understand the FBI did test fire and reported it inaccurate and difficult to fire that fast accurately . 

 

I did find this congressional report on the test firing of similar rifles in 1979 ( the original had not been cleaned since 1963 and was basically inoperable). One of the conclusions from that test firing was:

1) The weapon can be quite accurately fired more rapidly using open iron sights than the FBI tests in 1963 indicated, where the telescopic sight was used. For example, Officer Masson, during one test series, hit the body silhouette at 143 and 165 feet on the first two shots, and missed the head portion of the silhouette at 266 feet on the third shot by approximately one inch (1"), taking 2.0 seconds between shots 1 and 2, and a total of less than 5 seconds for all three shots. Two other series, one by officer Smith and another, again, by Officer Masson, were fired in which only 1.9 seconds elapsed between two shots, and one of the three shots scored a "kill".

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/jfk8/mc.htm

 

Worth reading the whole report.

 

I find the fact that so many people reject Oswald as the sole shooter acting alone fascinating. My personal belief is this proliferation of conspiracy theories to this day was mostly caused by the CIA and FBI cover-up and lack of transparency after the assassination of the gross incompetence in dealing with Oswald who they had been watching for over 4 years.  This is what will come out of the new document releases, but it is far too late to stop the JFK conspiracy industry. 

 

TH 

[CaptHaddock]

2 minutes ago, thaihome said:

I note the particular section in Wikipedia you link has no citation backing it up though I do understand the FBI did test fire and reported it inaccurate and difficult to fire that fast accurately . 

 

I did find this congressional report on the test firing of similar rifles in 1979 ( the original had not been cleaned since 1963 and was basically inoperable). One of the conclusions from that test firing was:

 

 

 

Worth reading the whole report.

 

I find the fact that so many people reject Oswald as the sole shooter acting alone fascinating. My personal belief is this proliferation of conspiracy theories to this day was mostly caused by the CIA and FBI cover-up and lack of transparency after the assassination of the gross incompetence in dealing with Oswald who they had been watching for over 4 years.  This is what will come out of the new document releases, but it is far too late to stop the JFK conspiracy industry. 

 

TH 

You have not addressed my main objection to the firing tests that all such tests used stationary targets only.  Invalid.  End of story. 

 

There is no evidence that Oswald fired a rifle that day since Police Chief Curry confirmed that the paraffin test for nitrates on his face was negative.  No one saw Oswald with a gun in the TSBD at any time.  No one saw Oswald on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting although he was seen elsewhere in the building immediately before and immediately after the shooting. 

 

My own view of the untenability of the Oswald-did-it theory does not rest, however, on the weakness of the evidence pointing to Oswald's involvement, but on Kennedy's head wounds.  The Parkland doctors and nurses and others overwhelmingly reported an egg-sized hole in the back right portion of Kennedy's skull.  The official Bethesda autopsy, conducted under control of the military, shows instead a huge opening from the back of the head up to and including much of the top of the head extending nearly to forehead/temple area on the right front side..  The Bethesda head wound is so massive that the audience at the autopsy gasped audibly when the scalp was lifted off to reveal the effect of a supposed single bullet to the head, as reported by the FBI agents present.

 

Extraordinarily, the autopsists found no bullets in Kennedy's body, probably because they had removed them prior to the autopsy as David Lifton claims.  The gross alteration of Kennedy's wounds between Parkland and Bethesda can have no innocent explanation and is not so technical that medical laymen like ourselves are unable to evaluate it.  It must indicate a cover-up conducted by the military and other parts of the government.  A cover-up conducted by the government beginning immediately after the assassination indicates that the government was involved in the assassination itself. 

 

It's beyond me how anyone who is aware of the medical evidence can maintain belief in the Oswald-did-it theory. 

[watcharacters]

9 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

This is actually an interesting point.  For fifty years film narrators have routinely described the crowd rushing up the grassy knoll as in pursuit of a shooter or shooters and everyone else has unthinkingly repeated the claim.  On the face of it this notion is ridiculous.  Is it at all plausible that unarmed civilians are intending to pursue and confront armed shooters who have just killed a man?  Has such a thing ever happened?  It certainly didn't happen with the recent shootings in Paris.  It's really a ludicrous idea.  It is much more likely that the crowd ran up the grassy knoll, because that was the shortest path out of Dealey Plaza and out of the line of fire.  The cops who were rushing up the incline were a different story, because that's their job. 

 

 

 

OK I think you're trying to be polemic.     That's good for discussion.

 

 

I doubt it's fair to equate to vastly different experiences as equal.   Guns are not generally used in Paris but they are freely available in Texas both now and  in 1963.

 

I think People in Texas at that time had a far better awareness of shots and from where they came than did the Parisians during the terrorists attacks

[watcharacters]

7 hours ago, StayinThailand2much said:

And I am still waiting for an explanation, why JFK's body was rushed from one hospital to another, photos of his skull 'doctored', crucial evidence tampered with, or missing, etc., etc. Releasing FBI and CIA documents about these circumstances would certainly help to defuse certain conspiracy theories. Until this happens, there is the suspicion of 'the fish smelling from the head'...

 

Assassinating a United States President in 1963 was not a Federal offense.     It was a State crime  which gave the Dallas police department full jurisdiction over the evidence and crime scene.    Has anyone read about the tussle of the gurney of JFK down the corridor of Parkland Hospital?    

 

It became a full out life threatening confrontation.     The Dallas police acquiesced under the threat of violence but I wish they had not.

 

 

Anyone  also read about the casket change from Parkland Hospital to Air force One to Washington DC?    Full witness verification and documentation available

[StayinThailand2much]

1 hour ago, watcharacters said:

Anyone  also read about the casket change from Parkland Hospital to Air force One to Washington DC?    Full witness verification and documentation available

Very interesting story; just read it. Reasons for changing the casket seem plausible, and, to be fair, the person insisting on the original casket's dumping into the sea seems to have been no other than JFK's brother.

[CaptHaddock]

3 hours ago, watcharacters said:

 

 

 

OK I think you're trying to be polemic.     That's good for discussion.

 

 

I doubt it's fair to equate to vastly different experiences as equal.   Guns are not generally used in Paris but they are freely available in Texas both now and  in 1963.

 

I think People in Texas at that time had a far better awareness of shots and from where they came than did the Parisians during the terrorists attacks

Your reply is incoherent.  I am not equating "vastly different experiences" at all.  I pointed out that crowds of unarmed civilians present at a shooting will never take it upon themselves to attempt to charge armed killers.  Instead, they will try to flee away from the line of fire.  That's what they did at the Paris shootings and, in my opinion, that's what they did in Dealey Plaza.  The notion that the bystanders in Dealey Plaza were running to "get" the killers doesn't stand up to scrutiny.  The fact that so many documentaries repeat that ridiculous claim shows how unthinking people can be.

[JohnMc45]

 

“Another official said: “There does remain sensitive information in the records” that could compromise the identify of informants or intelligence operations.”

 

This would not have to mean that informants/agents from that time are still active but did they recruit someone? Even a 6 degrees of separation type thing could burn a current or a more current asset. Then start to snowball.     

 

“What is interesting is that the US elected government can instruct that these documents must all be released after an appropriate time and set a final deadline to do so. Then at the "eleventh" hour the CIA and FBI lobbying the then sitting President who agrees/submits to pressure and doesn't comply.”

And a government would never promise todo something it had no intention in doing just to stay in or get power?

“What are those agencies really worried about? And why are they so worried about it?”

The two main theories for a cover up have always been A) The CIA, FBI, Military or Government where involved in the assassination or The CIA, FBI, Military or Government where incompetent and somehow let it happen.  I have always thought there was a C) The truth just ain’t convenient. If Cuba did it I don’t think that the American people would have settled for much short of a US invasion of Cuba. How would the USSR react to that? If USSR did it the cold war could have gone hot real fast. If the Mafia did it is there anything to the ideas that JFK’s dad had mob ties? A lot of very inconvenient questions could have been asked of a lot of powerful people.   

 “Lots of documentaries provide credible evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald could NOT have fired all 3 bullets in such a short time from that particular (very old at the time) bolt action rifle.”

The rifle was not particularly old in firearms terms. It was the rifle used by the Italian army in WWII Many people regularly use firearms made pre 1900 still today. It has been some time since I have seen any of the documentaries but I believe the conclusion was not that he could not have fired 3 shots but that he could not have fired 3 accurate shots that would account for all the wounds in the lone gunman theory. I would account for Oswald’s shots as 1) JFK in the back/neck 2) Connally 3) wild shot accounting to for Tague hit by bullet or stone fragment.       
 
“Question.... Does anyone still seriously believe the Warren Commission’s “findings” that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter?”

I would say all things point to very unlikely.

“There is little reason to suppose that Oswald fired any shots that day.  The paraffin test to his face showed negative for nitrates indicating he had not fired a rifle that day.  No one among the Dallas PD, Secret Service, or FBI sniffed the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository to determine if it had been fired recently.  Although it was later reported that three empty shell casings were found in the TSBD that day, the initial reports and photos show two empty shells and one live round.  No one ever saw Oswald with the M-C rifle at the TSBD or, indeed, in any other location at any time.”

 

Not a forensic scientist but I would not expect someone firing a bolt action rifle to have GSR on there face. Particularly if he fired the rifle as reported with the muzzle outside the window. His hands where apparently positive for GSR. Sniffing a gun is a TV/Book thing. I believe there is a picture of Oswald with the rifle.    

 

“Oswald himself denied shooting anyone, which one might dismiss as normal criminal exculpation.  However, no other presidential assassin or attempted assassin ever denied that crime before or since.”

 

One possible theory that I seen floated in a show or movie was that Oswald was working with the CIA but not as a assassin but in running a false flag. A nice attempted assassination that they could use to point fingers at the USSR and Cuba. But someone did shot JFK so what could they do? Hang Oswald out to dry and find a big rug and start sweeping.    

 

“I'm talking about such things as the failure to properly vet the buildings  along the parade route to going against protocol  and having a route with a candy cane shape such as the  left turn off Houston Street onto Elm Street.  

 

 There's also the matter of actual direct protection of the Kennedy car itself.  

 

 

There's a video on youtube showing the instance  of a SS agent being told to return to a follow up car rather than  protect JFK's car.    It shows the agent shrugging his shoulders in what appears to be exasperation.”

 

I believe it is reasonably well documented that JFK had ordered the SS to be low key. The SS can only do what there political masters will allow them to do and politicians are always image conscious.  

 

 

[JohnMc45]

14 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

You have not addressed my main objection to the firing tests that all such tests used stationary targets only.  Invalid.  End of story. 

 

There is no evidence that Oswald fired a rifle that day since Police Chief Curry confirmed that the paraffin test for nitrates on his face was negative.  No one saw Oswald with a gun in the TSBD at any time.  No one saw Oswald on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting although he was seen elsewhere in the building immediately before and immediately after the shooting. 

 

My own view of the untenability of the Oswald-did-it theory does not rest, however, on the weakness of the evidence pointing to Oswald's involvement, but on Kennedy's head wounds.  The Parkland doctors and nurses and others overwhelmingly reported an egg-sized hole in the back right portion of Kennedy's skull.  The official Bethesda autopsy, conducted under control of the military, shows instead a huge opening from the back of the head up to and including much of the top of the head extending nearly to forehead/temple area on the right front side..  The Bethesda head wound is so massive that the audience at the autopsy gasped audibly when the scalp was lifted off to reveal the effect of a supposed single bullet to the head, as reported by the FBI agents present.

 

Extraordinarily, the autopsists found no bullets in Kennedy's body, probably because they had removed them prior to the autopsy as David Lifton claims.  The gross alteration of Kennedy's wounds between Parkland and Bethesda can have no innocent explanation and is not so technical that medical laymen like ourselves are unable to evaluate it.  It must indicate a cover-up conducted by the military and other parts of the government.  A cover-up conducted by the government beginning immediately after the assassination indicates that the government was involved in the assassination itself. 

 

It's beyond me how anyone who is aware of the medical evidence can maintain belief in the Oswald-did-it theory. 

Well I agree that I have never been happy with the tests I have seen. Some of them have used moving targets. Also I think to many people get caught up in the needs of a true sniper. Oswald only needed million to one adds and a lucky day. Almost impossible to truly test scientifically.

 

If JFK really was shot with a 6.5x52  with military ammunition. I would be much more surprised if they did find bullets in him. Much of the 6.5x52 military ammo I have seen is Cupronickel jacketed. Harder then standard copper jacket. Also 6.5mm bullets in the 160gr. range have very high sectional density and therefore are very good penetrators.

 

[inThailand]

Who shot JFK?

 

A TV poster with a massive overstay residing in a Pattaya beer bar.

[Khun Han]

46 minutes ago, JohnMc45 said:

Well I agree that I have never been happy with the tests I have seen. Some of them have used moving targets. Also I think to many people get caught up in the needs of a true sniper. Oswald only needed million to one adds and a lucky day. Almost impossible to truly test scientifically.

 

If JFK really was shot with a 6.5x52  with military ammunition. I would be much more surprised if they did find bullets in him. Much of the 6.5x52 military ammo I have seen is Cupronickel jacketed. Harder then standard copper jacket. Also 6.5mm bullets in the 160gr. range have very high sectional density and therefore are very good penetrators.

 

 

That would mean that they are quite hard, and likely to pass through an obstruction more cleanly than a softer bullet, right?

[stevenl]

Trump may chnage his mind and release all after all.

 

Probably wont change much though, doubters will be there.