Buying house and usufruct

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Rama said:

 

Usufruct is poison. You only have the right to stay on the property until you die; it gives you no other rights.

Thats the only right I wanted.. 

 

The weakness of a usufruct between husband and wife is a bigger drawback IMO but that has solutions. 

 

We cant own land, so everything is a imperfect arrangement of one kind or another, for my uses a usufruct worked out the best arrangement and I am comfortable enough with it. 

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, sfokevin said:

I went to a very reputable Thai lawyer whos offices are on Huaykaew Rd... She told me that the Hang Dong land office would not issue a usufruct to unrelated parties such as ours...

They can be difficult, I would suggest speaking with another, possibly more connected lawyer.. Khun Sumalee at Tanin Law was on very friendly first name (high wai) terms from all the HD land office staff.. Old School CNX lawyer who knew everyone and was superb service for me. 

 

5 minutes ago, pennine said:

A 30 what? if you mean lease, it terminates on the lessee's death and is not inheritable.

No it doesnt. A lease can be willed on.. A lifetime usufruct cannot, however the person who owns the land is who I would will it to, so hardly a big consideration for me

[pumpjack]

if i can give you one small piece of advice please listen -

 

DO NOT INVEST IN THAILAND !!!    

[stgrhe]

Answers to your questions EricTh:

 

1. No, you don't need to sign a new usufruct with a new land owner.

 

2. I don't know from where you got the figure 1.5% from? If you are legally married to the land owner the registration fee is only 75 baht, and the same amount applies when it is cancelled. Perhaps your  figure is based on a non-marriage registration. In any case, you pay for bot registration and cancellation.

 

3. No, you will not get a discount. Most common in Thailand is that the seller and the buyer split the transfer costs, but that is of course always negotiable.

 

4. There are no annual fees for either usufruct or lease-hold to be paid to the land office. Having said that, many Western developers who own land via proxy try to get their lease-holders to pay annuals fees to them, but that is simply rip-off and you end up paying twice. Don't fall for that trick.

 

I would recommend you to seriously consider a superficies instead of a usufruct, especially if you intend to registre the building in your name. A superficies has also other advantages over usufruct but, for some reason I don't know, it is much less common.

 

Good luck.

[tryasimight]

Eric assuming you are not Thai,  the fundamental flaw in your questions is that it is based upon you changing the ownership of the land to another person.

Please understand that you may pay for the land but you do not own it.  It will never be your decision or your choice as to whose name is on the title usufruct or

 

 no usufruct. 

If you think you can give, say,  a girlfriend the money to buy the land that this gives any right of perceived influence in the ownership of the land then you are in for a very big shock.  

 

[EricTh]

7 hours ago, hanssna said:

 

The land office boss was rude and reluctant at first, since we wanted a usufruct (we are married, and usufruct is lifelong, and has almost no registation fee)

No registration fee?

 

Why did my lawyer said it is 1.5% of price of house and land? 

This is separate from the lawyer fees that I had to pay.

[Dante99]

16 minutes ago, EricTh said:

Why did my lawyer said it is 1.5% of price of house and land? 

This is separate from the lawyer fees that I had to pay.

You already said you have difficulty communicating with your lawyer.  If you know it, he too knows it so he is in the driver's seat and he is taking you for a ride. Hello.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EricTh]

6 hours ago, portroyal said:

Why not choose a lawyer you trust and speaks your language ???

 

I went to the land office last week and tried to talk to the head of the department, he wanted to talk to someone who is fluent in spoken and written Thai and I only know basic Thai.

 

This lawyer was recommended by my Thai teacher.

 

Edited October 28, 2017 by EricTh

[EricTh]

5 hours ago, stgrhe said:

Answers to your questions EricTh:

 

1. No, you don't need to sign a new usufruct with a new land owner.

 

2. I don't know from where you got the figure 1.5% from? If you are legally married to the land owner the registration fee is only 75 baht, and the same amount applies when it is cancelled. Perhaps your  figure is based on a non-marriage registration. In any case, you pay for bot registration and cancellation.

 

3. No, you will not get a discount. Most common in Thailand is that the seller and the buyer split the transfer costs, but that is of course always negotiable.

 

4. There are no annual fees for either usufruct or lease-hold to be paid to the land office. Having said that, many Western developers who own land via proxy try to get their lease-holders to pay annuals fees to them, but that is simply rip-off and you end up paying twice. Don't fall for that trick.

 

I would recommend you to seriously consider a superficies instead of a usufruct, especially if you intend to registre the building in your name. A superficies has also other advantages over usufruct but, for some reason I don't know, it is much less common.

 

Good luck.

 

Now I am wondering whether this lawyer recommended to me is trying to rip me off after reading your answers.

 

My lawyer told me that I have to pay annual fee to land office for the 30 years lease so he recommended usufruct. Now you're telling me that is no annual fees even for lease?

 

What are the pros and cons of superficies versus usufruct?

 

 

 

 

[Dante99]

1 hour ago, EricTh said:

 

I went to the land office last week and tried to talk to the head of the department, he wanted to talk to someone who is fluent in spoken and written Thai and I only know basic Thai.

 

This lawyer was recommended by my Thai teacher.

 

That does not answer the question.

 

  

[BuddyDean]

There is annual rental tax on the lease, the trend is for it to be collected.  There may even be a tax based on what they say it should be, not the imaginary rent amount presented to the land office.  Kind of like TM30..used to never matter, then seldom mattered, now there is a trend.  

 

Also, it is illegal to loan or give someone money to buy property for you.

[Foozool]

10 hours ago, hanssna said:

Why would this "reputable" but slightly expensive lawyer stop you from building a dream house ? You have a Thai partner, so why not just visiting the land office, and see if you can register a lease ? (Like I did, see my post before yours). Usufruct maybe hard to get, since you're not married ofcourse, and some land offices are reluctunt do do so anyway (they make no money with it, and have a headache if the relationship falls apart) but the 30 y lease is a fine option instead, may cost you 10 or 20k, but there are no more future fees . 

Is there any annual property tax after you build your house on a leased land ? 

[BuddyDean]

2 minutes ago, Foozool said:

Is there any annual property tax after you build your house on a leased land ?

 

Seems like the structure attaches to the Chinote....might be a part of the building permit process.  There have been reports of people unsuccessfully trying to separate the structure from the land.  Could almost be considered another grey area, but most land office are aware of maneuvers to avoid taxes.

[Foozool]

15 hours ago, BuddyDean said:

You have to pay 1% at the land office up front on the rent amount you made up...so maybe they accept 500,000 for thirty..you play 5000, but you are still responsible for rental tax that is usually a skeleton in the closet....and a lot more than 1%.  The Usufruct survives transfer of ownership...but you will pay a lot for the transfer.  It gets quite a bit less after five years.  Also, usufruct is not meant to be used as a way for foreigner to circumvent ownership restrictions on foreigners..it was meant for agriculture land.  Yes, there are rule breakers at various land offices, and the attorneys will know the weak spots at every office.  Not a game I am playing.

To prevent this rental property tax burden foreigners obtaining a long term lease interest in a property should make sure that they own the house and only lease the land and not lease land and house. Also if they own the property through a limited company the house should be owned separate from the land and the land should be held as an asset in the Thai company, not land and house. When the house on the leased land is owned freehold and owner occupied the house is exempt from housing and land tax.

[Foozool]

29 minutes ago, BuddyDean said:

 

Seems like the structure attaches to the Chinote....might be a part of the building permit process.  There have been reports of people unsuccessfully trying to separate the structure from the land.  Could almost be considered another grey area, but most land office are aware of maneuvers to avoid taxes.

I found this: 

To prevent this rental property tax burden foreigners obtaining a long term lease interest in a property should make sure that they own the house and only lease the land and not lease land and house. Also if they own the property through a limited company the house should be owned separate from the land and the land should be held as an asset in the Thai company, not land and house. When the house on the leased land is owned freehold and owner occupied the house is exempt from housing and land tax.

[BuddyDean]

18 minutes ago, Foozool said:

I found this: 

To prevent this rental property tax burden foreigners obtaining a long term lease interest in a property should make sure that they own the house and only lease the land and not lease land and house. Also if they own the property through a limited company the house should be owned separate from the land and the land should be held as an asset in the Thai company, not land and house. When the house on the leased land is owned freehold and owner occupied the house is exempt from housing and land tax.

If you have a Thai company, established for the purpose of owning real estate; your problems are a lot worse than rent tax.  As far as a husband and wife...yes, that would be a way to avoid the tax, and there have been reports of that not being allowed, but I don't have firsthand experience with it.  I wonder if building new or obtaining a prebuilt house/lot could make a difference.

 

I just don't want to be in a situation, where everything is done by an attorney, yet when you look at the much bigger picture; there is uncertainty.  I successfully bought and sold a house  with an attorney, and now feel my condo title solely in my name is truly rock solid, and yes, there are drawbacks to condos, but also advantages.

[roath]

On ‎28‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 7:31 AM, evenstevens said:

just checked  my records from 12 yrs ago(2005)

my lawyer fees were 8000 baht  with extra rider clauses added to usutruct to provide a safety net for both partys  in any event that it fell off a cliff(so to speak)

the land office fees were 17000 baht   which included all taxes being paid for a 30 year lease in place   at the time i felt very comfortable with the legal agreement put into place  to cover my investment and 12 yrs later it is safe as a bank so all up 25.000 baht to cover your backside hence 12 yrs ago ,small price to pay to have a water tight contractual legal  agreement etc etc   over the years have heard about you cannot own  land and house in Thailand b/s  , go to Malaysia where you can   ,  but who in their right mind  want to go there  as Thailand plays that country  off the break,for expat retirees

in summing up to the O/P  the 30 yr usutruct lease is as good as owning  it   but  find a good english speaking lawyer they are here,and cross your bridges as you come to them, in my case it was a enjoyable trip and still is, the very best of luck to you, a nice morning to all

An usufruct and a lease are different legal entities. You would had one or the other. 

[THAIJAMES]

16 hours ago, BuddyDean said:

 

Seems like the structure attaches to the Chinote....might be a part of the building permit process.  There have been reports of people unsuccessfully trying to separate the structure from the land.  Could almost be considered another grey area, but most land office are aware of maneuvers to avoid taxes.

In Thailand it is completely legal to own the structure separately to the land.

This is true for many businesses that rent long term and build their business on rented land.

As long as you register the building plans under your name at the local district.  The building is yours no matter who owns the land.  Assuming that your lease contract give you permission to build of course.

 

 

My house which is on rented land is registered under my name at the district office (not land department) and therefore I have a bluebook under my sole name.

 

Of course when the rental contract is up, not easy to move your house :)

30 Years of use should have paid off the initial building costs.