New roof advice

[simoh1490]

50 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Firstly you got it.

 

Secondly l could do a sketch for you to understand the on site forming of a steel eaves profile flashing using snips but l only have "Paint" as a computer drawing facility.

Using a small off-shelf 90% steel flashing which are available out where l am so not hard to find,  you place a roof sheet upside down on a bench, you place angle flashing against the end of the profiled roof and mark the corrugation profile of the sheet on the angle flashing.

You then get left & right gibows or you can use ordinary tin snips to cut the angle so it fits the underside of the corrugations of the roof sheet the same as a profile foam filler would.

To cut galvanized roofing materials as in good practice you should use only snips or a steel roof shearing tool not an angle grinder with a steel disc blade.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I kinda figured it might be that, problem is, that doesn't allow for airflow - it would be good to find the plastic thingies but I'm not hopeful.

[Kwasaki]

13 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I kinda figured it might be that, problem is, that doesn't allow for airflow - it would be good to find the plastic thingies but I'm not hopeful.

Again profile foam / plastic eave infill pieces don't allow airflow either unless there vented ones.

Again if the roof eave soffit was vented it would not matter.

The site fabricated steel angle profile (closure) infill pieces could be vented by drilling a series of small holes.  

[Kwasaki]

I feel there's a mis-understanding in this thread of what roof valleys are. 

Regarding different terminology when valley is spoken of or referred to it comes in two ways of clear understanding what two types valleys in question are being referred to on it's positioning in the roof construction.

1. Picture a protruding roof gable adjoining in junction with a main roof.

This valley is referred to as a flashing, a slopping roof valley flashing which goes under the junction of the adjoining roof slopes.

2.  Picture two roof slopes coming from opposite sides to a horizontal valley position, this where a gutter in whatever material or design is used is referred to as a valley gutter.

[simoh1490]

42 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Again profile foam / plastic eave infill pieces don't allow airflow either unless there vented ones.

Again if the roof eave soffit was vented it would not matter.

The site fabricated steel angle profile (closure) infill pieces could be vented by drilling a series of small holes.  

Fair enough.

[Kwasaki]

Example of the fabrication of a steel eaves corrugated profile infill filler closure flashing which took me less than 5 mins to produce.

 

This is a piece flat steel l found knocking about and have bent it to a 90% angle.

It is now placed at end of the corrugated roof sheet and marked on the underside of the roof sheet.

It is now of course cut to suit so it can be put in place.

It is now a metal eave infill closure flashing.

Job done.

 

 

[Kwasaki]

17 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Fair enough.

Dunno about you but l wait with bated breath also curiosity to what actual roof plan looks like if ever.  

[Kwasaki]

@Sheryl  Hope all info helps OP.

Here's two questions for me out of interest if you don't mind.

Q.1.  From the assumed roof plan and the google sat nav picture there shows a building on the left, l assume again, garden roof.?

Q.2.  The picture at page 8 shows of a roof side slope elevation with hip ends l cannot see that from google sat nav picture.

 

 

[simoh1490]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Example of the fabrication of a steel eaves corrugated profile infill filler closure flashing which took me less than 5 mins to produce.

 

This is a piece flat steel l found knocking about and have bent it to a 90% angle.

It is now placed at end of the corrugated roof sheet and marked on the underside of the roof sheet.

It is now of course cut to suit so it can be put in place.

It is now a metal eave infill closure flashing.

Job done.

 

 

Nice, can you knock up another 135 and we'll get someone to run 'em over to Sheryl's place? :)

[Sheryl]

Kwasaki: thank you for clearing up the terminology re gutters and flashing, very helpful.

 

Re your questions:

 

1 - that is an entirely separate building, a garden shed (and also where I keep my above ground spa-n-a-abox!). It is not attached to the house and not part of the roofing project. In fact its tile roof was just replaced a month back , by mt current work crew, after a freak storm uprooted a huge mango tree and sent it crashing through the old roof (Hence my getting easily spooked by the references to metal roofs ripping off!).

 

2 - On the sat picture, this appears as either side of the house..if you run the picture sideways might be clearer. But I am not sure that what it has are "hip ends" (again terminology problem), the edges of it on either side form part of the edge of the gables in front and back:

 

 

Regarding your drawing I am not clear, is that for doing if the middle roof is redesigned to be wider with less slope and meet the walls of the 2 side roofs? If so makes sense, there would have to be new purlins installed. But if it is for the existing design then I don't understand:

 

1-  why  2nd valley gutter necessary?

 

2 - how it could sit in the purlins when the existing gutter already sits on them?

 

At this point we are leaning heavily towards no change to roof infrastructure, just better installation and unless someone can come up with compelling reason otherwise, that is how it will go so you already know the basic design. Between the added hassle and expense (replacing ceilings etc) and the extra degrees of uncertainty this would introduce, risks that it would destabilize the soundness of a structure that has otherwise stood the test of time etc, and that current design given adequate valley gutters does not leak, just seems the best course of action.

 

Meanwhile having not heard from the Bluescope supplier I called, thinking he might be backing out over the need to buy a whole new roll of colorbond and  having realized that it was only a sales of materials and that I would not be using his work crew (the wisdom of which was reinforced after meeting them!). However he says I shall have the specs by this evening so stay tuned, I will post them here.

 

Installation of vented eaves boards is now in progress, since we can't start the roof itself yet.  Found them at home pro -- even the tiny Home Pro in Prachinburi had them and armed with picture, easy to find --  and indeed it is proving no problem to cut out space in existing eaves boards to put them into. I owe this feature 100% to all of you as I didn't know the product existed and also did not understand the need. Also putting them plus gable vented windows into the worker's house which is next door to mine  (allows me to have "live in" help who don't live in my house!) - that was built a year ago with NO ventilation in gables and we had been wondering why his house was so much hotter than mine!!!

 

 

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Nice, can you knock up another 135 and we'll get someone to run 'em over to Sheryl's place? :)

 

No problem, given enough colorbond sheets, and aided by this pix, my guys can do it. Or supplier may provide, he knows I want some sort of eaves fill so we'll see what his offer includes.

 

Kwasaki, did you use colorbond for that? And where in that pix are the eaves flashing?

[simoh1490]

Way to go girl, looks like you're on a roll.

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

1 - that is an entirely separate building, a garden shed (and also where I keep my above ground spa-n-a-abox!). It is not attached to the house

OK understand it was showing on sat pic so wondered.

 

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Regarding your drawing I am not clear, is that for doing if the middle roof is redesigned to be wider with less slope and meet the walls of the 2 side roofs? If so makes sense, there would have to be new purlins installed. But if it is for the existing design then I don't understand:

The isometric sketch is only an assume plan of your existing roof from pix,  not having a plan makes it hard to see if any anomalies,  if care is taken with installing roof material to produce and replacing your new roof area design as previous it should be OK.

 

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

1-  why  2nd valley gutter necessary?

 

2 - how it could sit in the purlins when the existing gutter already sits on them?

1.  As already said my understanding is you have 2 valley gutters either side of the small middle roof at as assumed the front of the house.

 

2.  If that case just make sure the new roof sheet junction with the existing valley gutter is a sound weathered finish.

 

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

At this point we are leaning heavily towards no change to roof infrastructure, just better installation and unless someone can come up with compelling reason otherwise

No problem as long as the workmanship is of a high standard it's a complicated mid- roof area. 

 

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Bluescope supplier However he says I shall have the specs by this evening so stay tuned, I will post them here.

Will be good to see.

 

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

installation of vented eaves boards is now in progress, since we can't start the roof itself yet. 

Good idea.

 

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Kwasaki, did you use colorbond for that? And where in that pix are the eaves flashing?

No it was as said a piece flat metal scrap which can be got from many places even small shop suppliers that do roofing, plumbing & guttering bits etc.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

1.  As already said my understanding is you have 2 valley gutters either side of the small middle roof at as assumed the front of the house.

 

2.  If that case just make sure the new roof sheet junction with the existing valley gutter is a sound weathered finish.

 

 

1. Indeed I do and yes, it is at the front.

 

2. sorry I am not clear - If I use Colorbond panels for the roof, then the edge of those panels will junction with the valley gutter.  Is that already a "sound weathered finish" or do I need to do something else?

 

Are you talking about something I need to do over the seam that forms where the roof panels meet the valley gutter? (what?) I think I understand the issue (if gutter full enough might reflux back up under the bottom of the roof panel). just not clear on what the soltion is. I think the current gutters have a lot of silicon applied at that junction but maybe there is a better approach?

 

 

[simoh1490]

I don't think I would want to silicone or seal the point where the colourbond meets the valley gutter, for two reasons. The first is that the colourbond shouldn't come in contact with other metals. The second is that the metal used in the colourbond and the metal used in the valley gutter will be different and may well expand and contract at different speeds and that will break the seal.

 

I think perhaps a more reliable solution might be to ensure the wings of the valley gutter extend far enough up the roof to handle any potential splash back or reflux as you put it. And if the top of those wings were folded over to form an angle or ceiling, even if only a small one, that would help prevent any overflow from them, a small lip at the top of each wing would probably suffice. 

 

Re. 2 above: the fact the colourbond vertically overlaps the valley gutter makes it a weatherproof seal, the surfaces don't have to touch or be sealed (and probably shouldn't be) in order to be weatherpoof.

[Kwasaki]

8 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Nice, can you knock up another 135 and we'll get someone to run 'em over to Sheryl's place? :)

l do not know the profile of the roof sheet Sheryl is purchasing also l would be more expensive as labour. 

[Sheryl]

Thanks!Additional q, different subject - we may go ahead and try applying radiant barrier on inside of rafters in the worker's house where that is the only option since we aren't going to replace that roof, and in addition to reducing the heat there, it it will give an idea of just how difficult it would be to install the RB inside in my attic  since both have metal rafters/purlins and hanging ceiling wires attached to them.

 

I understand the shiny side of the foil should face inward and the dull side towards the roofing.

 

I must be dull myself because both sides look shiny to me. Which of these is considered the shiny side, is it the first pix?

 

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I think perhaps a more reliable solution might be to ensure the wings of the valley gutter extend far enough up the roof to handle any potential splash back or reflux as you put it. And if the top of those wings were folded over to form an angle or ceiling, even if only a small one, that would help prevent any overflow from them, a small lip at the top of each wing would probably suffice. 

Hence my detail of an extra valley gutter to fit inside the existing one.as before whether another channel purlin for support is reachable or not.

 

[simoh1490]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Thanks!Additional q, different subject - we may go ahead and try applying radiant barrier on inside of rafters in the worker's house where that is the only option since we aren't going to replace that roof, and in addition to reducing the heat there, it it will give an idea of just how difficult it would be to install the RB inside in my attic  since both have metal rafters/purlins and hanging ceiling wires attached to them.

 

I understand the shiny side of the foil should face inward and the dull side towards the roofing.

 

I must be dull myself because both sides look shiny to me. Which of these is considered the shiny side, is it the first pix?

 

The bottom  one.

 

Radiant barrier works via emissivity which is the opposite of reflectance . The barrier gets very hot but because the shiny surface emits very little heat (i.e. it has low emittance) and because the shiny surface faces inwards it radiates very little heat into your attic space. It's a radiant barrier. Not a reflective barrier.

 

[carlyai]

Reflective foil, maybe too late for this post and this article is a bit dated but interesting discussion, especially towards the end with a simple diagram.

Reference: ThaiVisa

Title - Reflective Foil: Quality Comparison

Started by Greenside 2013-06-28 21.42

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

[carlyai]

Don't  know if they are any use, but I have included some of my radiant barrier pictures. Also the flashing for the two roof joins, or valley. There were really 4 roofs joining, as the verandas weren't constructed then. Totally inadequate, and replaces after the inhouse  waterfall appeared.

 

I will have to revisit this next year in a new thread to fix up the installation over the soffits.

 

[Sheryl]

11 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Hence my detail of an extra valley gutter to fit inside the existing one.as before whether another channel purlin for support is reachable or not.

 

This is assuming the current lips don't go up far enough, yes? I can't see how they are now as under the tiles, will post pix once they are removed.

[Sheryl]

9 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

The bottom  one.

 

 

 

Thanks - I would have guessed the opposite so good I asked. Though both sides look pretty shiny.

[Kwasaki]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

This is assuming the current lips don't go up far enough, yes? I can't see how they are now as under the tiles, will post pix once they are removed.

That would be good as l only have a suggested NTS exploded view rough sketch detail for your valley gutters situation at the moment which does not require too much additional works only additional Zed purlin supports & the valley gutter.

 

[wayned]

I have a quick question about the above drawing. The new roof sheets will be attached to the "suitable spacers with the screws supplied.  How are the new spacers going to be attached to the existing purlins once the RB is installed?  Just a question as I don't think that "long" screws is the answer to get the spacing needed between the RB and the roof panels.

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Thanks - I would have guessed the opposite so good I asked. Though both sides look pretty shiny.

Sheryl, if that's what you think you may well be right, you're holding it in your hand and I'm looking at a photograph!

[Sheryl]

I truly don't see a difference in shininess.

One side is the outer side of the roll and has sort of striated lines on it. The underside is flat (no lines). Both look shiny to me. ????

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[simoh1490]

25 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I truly don't see a difference in shininess.

One side is the outer side of the roll and has sort of striated lines on it. The underside is flat (no lines). Both look shiny to me. ????

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

The aluminium covered PE foil that I used for my lower roof is considered to be an RB, it is less shiny than the Reynolds Wrap. So it might well be that the two sides of the Reynolds Wrap are about the same, as I recall when I did mine I had a similar question and I just decided which one I wanted to use - right or wrong it works.

[Sheryl]

It is not Reynolds wrap, it is "NASH Cool":

 

 

The is a definite difference in the 2 sides. One has sort of threads into it that make a diamond pattern and thus it is not smooth (1st picture in post 291). . The other side (inner side from how it comes rolled up) is smooth (2nd picture same post). But both sides seem to me equally shiny.

 

Since there is a definite difference I think it may matter which side faces where but still very unsure. Can anyone help on this as we are about to start. Should it be the smooth side that faces the roof or the side with the patterned threads?

 

Now that we have unrolled it I am also worrying about whether it is of adequate quality. Seems to be brown paper in the middle with the foil attached on either side and  the foil seems to peel off the paper pretty readily, and the roll is also  very easy to tear - both these problems occurring along the side edge. The tearing occured when I removed the tape that held the roll in place. 

I have already opened up one roll but could still return the other 2. Thoughts?

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, wayned said:

I have a quick question about the above drawing. The new roof sheets will be attached to the "suitable spacers with the screws supplied.  How are the new spacers going to be attached to the existing purlins once the RB is installed?  Just a question as I don't think that "long" screws is the answer to get the spacing needed between the RB and the roof panels.

Just quick sketch to explain exploded one @ post #293.

[simoh1490]

44 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It is not Reynolds wrap, it is "NASH Cool":

 

 

The is a definite difference in the 2 sides. One has sort of threads into it that make a diamond pattern and thus it is not smooth (1st picture in post 291). . The other side (inner side from how it comes rolled up) is smooth (2nd picture same post). But both sides seem to me equally shiny.

 

Since there is a definite difference I think it may matter which side faces where but still very unsure. Can anyone help on this as we are about to start. Should it be the smooth side that faces the roof or the side with the patterned threads?

 

Now that we have unrolled it I am also worrying about whether it is of adequate quality. Seems to be brown paper in the middle with the foil attached on either side and  the foil seems to peel off the paper pretty readily, and the roll is also  very easy to tear - both these problems occurring along the side edge. The tearing occured when I removed the tape that held the roll in place. 

I have already opened up one roll but could still return the other 2. Thoughts?

I've been using the term Reynolds Wrap to distinguish RB from foil encased fibreglass attic insulation (batts) in our earlier discussions, Reynolds Wrap is actually kitchen aluminium foil and not RB, I thought you understood that, sorry if you didn't. I have a partial roll of RB nearby and I can't tear it if I try, it certainly doesn't have brown paper in the middle, it's very very hard to rip or tear - my vote is to return it and buy something more durable.