Hundreds of thousands march for unified Spain, poll shows depths of division

[webfact]

Hundreds of thousands march for unified Spain, poll shows depths of division

By Sonya Dowsett

 

Pro-unity supporters take part in a demonstration in central Barcelona, Spain, October 29, 2017. REUTERS/Yves Herman

 

BARCELONA (Reuters) - Hundreds of thousands of supporters of a unified Spain filled Barcelona's streets on Sunday in one of the biggest shows of force yet by the so-called silent majority that has watched as regional political leaders push for Catalan independence.

 

Political parties opposing a split by Catalonia from Spain had a small lead in an opinion poll published on Sunday, the first since Madrid called a regional election to try to resolve the country's worst political crisis in four decades.

 

Polls and recent elections have shown that about half the electorate in the wealthy northeastern region, which is already autonomous, oppose secession from Spain, but a vocal independence movement has brought the current crisis to a head.

 

Spain's central government called an election for Dec. 21 on Friday after sacking Catalonia's president Carles Puigdemont, dissolving its parliament and dismissing its government. That followed the assembly's unilateral declaration of independence in a vote boycotted by three national parties.

 

The regional government claimed it had a mandate to push ahead with independence following an unofficial referendum on Oct. 1 which was ruled illegal under Spanish law and mostly boycotted by unionists.

 

Waving thousands of Spanish flags and singing "Viva España", protesters on Sunday turned out in the largest display of support for a united Spain since the beginning of the crisis -- underlining the depth of division in Catalonia itself.

 

"I'm here to defend Spanish unity and the law," said Alfonso Machado, 55, a salesman standing with a little girl with Spanish flags in her hair.

 

"Knowing that in the end there won't be independence, I feel sorry for all the people tricked into thinking there could be and the divisions they've driven through Catalan society."

 

SLIGHT UNIONIST LEAD

 

The poll of 1,000 people by Sigma Dos for newspaper El Mundo showed unionist parties winning 43.4 percent support and pro-independence parties 42.5 percent.

 

The survey was taken from Monday to Thursday, just as the central government prepared to take control of Catalonia.

 

Madrid said on Saturday that secessionist politicians, including Puigdemont, were free to take part in the election. The hardline CUP has been unclear if it would.

 

The deposed Catalan government will soon have to make difficult decisions, Puigdemont's former deputy Oriol Junqueras said on Sunday in an editorial in online newspaper El Punt Avui. He stopped short of saying his ERC party would take part in the election.

 

"We need a shared strategy ... it's important to weave solid alliances with those who are willing to build a state that serves its citizens," he said, possibly alluding to a rumoured alliance between the ERC and the Catalan arm of the anti-austerity Podemos party.

 

Such an alliance could put the independence movement in difficult position as it would mean a main secession supporter joining forces with parties that reject Madrid's hard line but do not support separatism.

 

With weeks to go before the election, the poll showed the CUP, kingmaker for the pro-secessionists in the dismissed 135-seat parliament, would win seven seats, down from a current 10.

 

The pro-independence coalition Junts pel Si, which held 62 seats previously, was split into parties PDeCat and ERC for the poll as they are unlikely to run on a single platform. The two would win between 54 and 58 seats in total, the poll showed.

 

At Sunday's rally, former European Parliament president Josep Borrell called for unionist voters to turn out in December to ensure independence supporters lose their stranglehold on the regional parliament.

 

"Maybe we're here because many of us during elections didn't go and vote. Now we have a golden opportunity. This time, nobody should stay at home," Borrell said to cheering crowds.

 

DAMAGE TO CATALONIA

 

Puigdemont called on Saturday for peaceful opposition to Madrid's takeover. But he was vague on precisely what steps the secessionists would take as Spanish authorities move into Barcelona to enforce control.

 

European countries, the United States and Mexico have also rejected the Catalan declaration of independence and expressed support for Spain's unity.

 

But emotions are running high and the next few days will be tricky for Madrid as it embarks on enforcing direct rule and putting officials in administrative roles. National police were accused of heavy-handedness during the Oct. 1 referendum.

 

Officers of the regional police force, called the Mossos d'Esquadra in Catalan, were stationed in main public and government buildings on Sunday.

 

But the force is believed to have divided loyalties. The central government has removed the Mossos' chief, Josep Lluis Trapero, and said units could be replaced if warranted.

 

In an open letter on Sunday, Interior Minister Juan Ignacio Zoido praised the Mossos for their work and urged them to accept temporary direction from Madrid.

 

The main secessionist group, the Catalan National Assembly, has urged civil servants not to follow orders from the central government and to mount "peaceful resistance", while the pro-independence trade union CSC has called a strike.

 

Puigdemont, Junqueras and their advisors left the Catalan government offices on Friday, newspaper La Vanguardia reported on Sunday, effectively handing the building over to Madrid and making a forced eviction on Monday less likely.

 

Since the return of democracy in the late 1970s Spain has suffered several traumatic episodes, including an attempted military coup in 1981, a violent Basque separatist conflict, and more recently an economic crisis.

The Catalan issue is however the biggest challenge to the territorial integrity of what is now a progressive European Union nation.

 

The chaos has prompted an exodus of businesses from Catalonia, which contributes about a fifth of Spain's economy, the fourth-largest in the euro zone. Tourism to Barcelona has been hit and markets have darted up and down on the fast-moving developments.

 

European leaders have also denounced the push, fearing it could fan separatist sentiment around the continent.

 

(Reporting by Sonya Dowsett in Barcelona and Paul Day and Tomas Cobos in Madrid; Writing by Paul Day; Editing by Angus MacSwan and Catherine Evans)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-10-30

[hansnl]

As concluded in the article, the EUrophiles are very much afraid of anything reeking of democracy, including the growing wishes of several regions in Europe to be independent.

The thing is that many in Europe are getting anti EU.

And that is a frightening thing for the undemocratic, autocratic bunch in Brussels.

[Baerboxer]

4 hours ago, hansnl said:

As concluded in the article, the EUrophiles are very much afraid of anything reeking of democracy, including the growing wishes of several regions in Europe to be independent.

The thing is that many in Europe are getting anti EU.

And that is a frightening thing for the undemocratic, autocratic bunch in Brussels.

 

Only it's not really democracy when a minority want to impose the results of an illegal vote to suit there own agenda.

 

And that's a current phenomenon. Democracy is being branded about by EU federalists, EU bureaucrats, secessionists, and regional fascists, when in reality they are only interested in it when it suits their agenda. 

[RuamRudy]

Disappointingly biased article - 

6 hours ago, webfact said:

a vocal independence movement has brought the current crisis to a head.

And nothing to do with arrogance and intransigence from a remote government unwilling to seek a means of defusing the situation long before it reached the current crisis?

 

6 hours ago, webfact said:

Madrid said on Saturday that secessionist politicians, including Puigdemont, were free to take part in the election. 

Rather than calling him the democratically elected leader of the Catalan parliament, he is relegated to the heavily loaded position of 'secessionist politician'.

 

As for the rally - I understand that the Catalans appreciate additional revenue generated from the mass influx of people from other parts of Spain and the south of France, who were drafted in to swell numbers. 

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Disappointingly biased article - 

And nothing to do with arrogance and intransigence from a remote government unwilling to seek a means of defusing the situation long before it reached the current crisis?

 

Rather than calling him the democratically elected leader of the Catalan parliament, he is relegated to the heavily loaded position of 'secessionist politician'.

 

As for the rally - I understand that the Catalans appreciate additional revenue generated from the mass influx of people from other parts of Spain and the south of France, who were drafted in to swell numbers. 

 

Rather than calling him the democratically elected leader of the Catalan parliament, he is relegated to the heavily loaded position of 'secessionist politician'.

 

Well, spade.

[Grouse]

43 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Disappointingly biased article - 

And nothing to do with arrogance and intransigence from a remote government unwilling to seek a means of defusing the situation long before it reached the current crisis?

 

Rather than calling him the democratically elected leader of the Catalan parliament, he is relegated to the heavily loaded position of 'secessionist politician'.

 

As for the rally - I understand that the Catalans appreciate additional revenue generated from the mass influx of people from other parts of Spain and the south of France, who were drafted in to swell numbers. 

What would you have had Madrid do?

[Grouse]

Maybe Madrid should put Catalonia under Aragon as it used to be!

 

Catherine of Aragon anyone?

Edited October 30, 2017 by Grouse

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What would you have had Madrid do?

Now? I really don't know if it is not too late for amelioratory actions, but to suggest, as this article does, that the crisis was fomented by the independence party is simply revisionism. Madrid failed to recognise the gravity of the situation several years ago - that was when they should have first taken action.

[Baerboxer]

53 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Disappointingly biased article - 

And nothing to do with arrogance and intransigence from a remote government unwilling to seek a means of defusing the situation long before it reached the current crisis?

 

Rather than calling him the democratically elected leader of the Catalan parliament, he is relegated to the heavily loaded position of 'secessionist politician'.

 

As for the rally - I understand that the Catalans appreciate additional revenue generated from the mass influx of people from other parts of Spain and the south of France, who were drafted in to swell numbers. 

 

So just because a minority led by ambitious politicians want to chance their arm and "demand" talks, that only they want, whilst ignoring laws and procedures to suit themselves, then the government is "remote"?

 

It seems fashionable for some to support the notion anyone can "demand" and ignore laws as long as they are pursuing a desired political goal.

 

 

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Now? I really don't know if it is not too late for amelioratory actions, but to suggest, as this article does, that the crisis was fomented by the independence party is simply revisionism. Madrid failed to recognise the gravity of the situation several years ago - that was when they should have first taken action.

How far back do you want to go? 1975? 1931? 18th Century? 17 Century?

 

In recent history there has never been a majority for independence.

 

Also, Catalonia has more devolved powers than anywhere I know.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

How far back do you want to go? 1975? 1931? 18th Century? 17 Century?

 

In recent history there has never been a majority for independence.

 

Also, Catalonia has more devolved powers than anywhere I know.

 

I would start with when the rising tide of discontent organised itself into a potent , cohesive political force. Government strategists should have identified the threat at that time and taken steps to address it. 

 

As for the extent of devolution, it was clearly insufficient to satisfy the complainants. That some may consider those powers already generous is irrelevant. 

 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Disappointingly biased article - 

And nothing to do with arrogance and intransigence from a remote government unwilling to seek a means of defusing the situation long before it reached the current crisis?

 

Rather than calling him the democratically elected leader of the Catalan parliament, he is relegated to the heavily loaded position of 'secessionist politician'.

 

As for the rally - I understand that the Catalans appreciate additional revenue generated from the mass influx of people from other parts of Spain and the south of France, who were drafted in to swell numbers. 

Next you'll be telling us George Soros paid for it.

[RuamRudy]

20 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

So just because a minority led by ambitious politicians want to chance their arm and "demand" talks, that only they want, whilst ignoring laws and procedures to suit themselves, then the government is "remote"?

 

It seems fashionable for some to support the notion anyone can "demand" and ignore laws as long as they are pursuing a desired political goal.

 

 

Well, a minority led the UK to Brexit so maybe you are onto something - but if the referendum had been allowed to go ahead, the polls suggest that no might have won; we would not be seeing the crisis we see now.

[Baerboxer]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Well, a minority led the UK to Brexit so maybe you are onto something - but if the referendum had been allowed to go ahead, the polls suggest that no might have won; we would not be seeing the crisis we see now.

 

Doesn't change the fact that a group of politicians cannot ignore laws and courts to please themselves. And then use the resulting crisis, which they engineered, to demand negotiations.

 

The Brexit referendum was legal. 72.21% of the electorate voted and and 51.89% of those voted to leave. I don't like the result but it wasn't a minority. 

When May tried to circumvent the constitution by misusing the Royal Prerogative the Courts stopped it. 

 

Here a group of politicians tried to circumvent the law and the courts tried to stop them. Had the police done their job and enforced the law, there would not have been a vote.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Doesn't change the fact that a group of politicians cannot ignore laws and courts to please themselves. And then use the resulting crisis, which they engineered, to demand negotiations.

 

The Brexit referendum was legal. 72.21% of the electorate voted and and 51.89% of those voted to leave. I don't like the result but it wasn't a minority. 

When May tried to circumvent the constitution by misusing the Royal Prerogative the Courts stopped it. 

 

Here a group of politicians tried to circumvent the law and the courts tried to stop them. Had the police done their job and enforced the law, there would not have been a vote.

This is where we disagree - the legality is irrelevant. Modern history is littered with examples of laws that, in hindsight, were bad laws - apartheid in South Africa, racial segregation in the US, even the holocaust was legal under Nazi German laws. Simply putting something into law and refusing to countenance it being challenged is not an acceptable defence. 

 

But a higher proportion of the Catalan population voted in the (illegal) referendum to declare independence that voted in the UK to leave the EU. 

[Grouse]

53 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

This is where we disagree - the legality is irrelevant. Modern history is littered with examples of laws that, in hindsight, were bad laws - apartheid in South Africa, racial segregation in the US, even the holocaust was legal under Nazi German laws. Simply putting something into law and refusing to countenance it being challenged is not an acceptable defence. 

 

But a higher proportion of the Catalan population voted in the (illegal) referendum to declare independence that voted in the UK to leave the EU. 

RR I'm surprised and disappointed in your stance here.

 

The Catalonia independence vote was not worthy a carrot 

 

Now, on December 21, there will be an election. Let's see the result.

 

As you know I think independence would be good for Scotland but there will need to be a proper majority not just a simple one

[JemJem]

The Catalonia issue hasn't been one that has interested me until very recently; but to be honest, I was really surprised that there was a HUGE demonstration in favor of unified Spain. I had guessed that the heavy majority of people there wanted independence.

 

I have a feeling that now it doesn't look likely that there will be an independent Catalonia anytime soon. Spain is strictly against it. So is the EU leadership. And apparently so is a high number of people in Catalonia.

 

What kind of compromise can be reached ? I have no idea. As fas as I know, the region already has a high degree of autonomy. So, a compromise in the form of 'more autonomy' probably won't amount to anything significant.

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

RR I'm surprised and disappointed in your stance here.

 

The Catalonia independence vote was not worthy a carrot 

 

Now, on December 21, there will be an election. Let's see the result.

 

As you know I think independence would be good for Scotland but there will need to be a proper majority not just a simple one

Sorry, Grouse - my intent is not to play to the gallery, but to say it as I see it. 

 

I appreciate that, for many, issues about identity are hard to grasp. As I have said repeatedly, all this mess could have been avoided if Madrid had recognised the significant discontent in the region and worked to resolve it. 

 

Catalonia’s very real grievances

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, JemJem said:

The Catalonia issue hasn't been one that has interested me until very recently; but to be honest, I was really surprised that there was a HUGE demonstration in favor of unified Spain. I had guessed that the heavy majority of people there wanted independence.

 

I have a feeling that now it doesn't look likely that there will be an independent Catalonia anytime soon. Spain is strictly against it. So is the EU leadership. And apparently so is a high number of people in Catalonia.

 

What kind of compromise can be reached ? I have no idea. As fas as I know, the region already has a high degree of autonomy. So, a compromise in the form of 'more autonomy' probably won't amount to anything significant.

It is hard to say how Catalonia would have voted - but with 43% of the population having voted and the results being 92% in favour of independence, it would be a brave man who would put his life savings on No prevailing. 

As for the weekend demonstration, I understand that there were significant busloads of people brought in from other regions, and even from the south of France to swell the numbers. That said, I cannot tell if any of the Spanish patriots in the photos below, taken at the demonstration, are from Catalonia.

[JemJem]

40 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

It is hard to say how Catalonia would have voted - but with 43% of the population having voted and the results being 92% in favour of independence, it would be a brave man who would put his life savings on No prevailing. 

As for the weekend demonstration, I understand that there were significant busloads of people brought in from other regions, and even from the south of France to swell the numbers. That said, I cannot tell if any of the Spanish patriots in the photos below, taken at the demonstration, are from Catalonia.

Hmmm. Thanks.

 

I guess I should have known that there would possibly be lots of fascists among the pro-unity crowd.

[dabhand]

23 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

It is hard to say how Catalonia would have voted - but with 43% of the population having voted and the results being 92% in favour of independence, it would be a brave man who would put his life savings on No prevailing. 

As for the weekend demonstration, I understand that there were significant busloads of people brought in from other regions, and even from the south of France to swell the numbers. That said, I cannot tell if any of the Spanish patriots in the photos below, taken at the demonstration, are from Catalonia.

Just a few clicks will show that at least two of the pictures (bottom left and right) are not 'taken at the demonstration'.  These two are easily identifiable within articles/blogs from 2012 and 2015. This being the latter:

 

http://es.blastingnews.com/opinion/2015/04/la-ultraderecha-crece-en-europa-pero-no-en-espana-00337603.amp.html

 

This is the former from 2012:

 

http://www.helpcatalonia.cat/2012/12/fascism-rears-ugly-head-in-spain-as.html

 

Maybe the rest are of similar origin, I don't know.

 

It was claimed, earlier, by the Spanish government that a number of images from earlier demonstrations depicting police violence were not current. Of that I have no idea, but this montage is clearly suspect. The origin of this would be useful

 

[RuamRudy]

11 hours ago, dabhand said:

Just a few clicks will show that at least two of the pictures (bottom left and right) are not 'taken at the demonstration'.  These two are easily identifiable within articles/blogs from 2012 and 2015. This being the latter:

 

http://es.blastingnews.com/opinion/2015/04/la-ultraderecha-crece-en-europa-pero-no-en-espana-00337603.amp.html

 

This is the former from 2012:

 

http://www.helpcatalonia.cat/2012/12/fascism-rears-ugly-head-in-spain-as.html

 

Maybe the rest are of similar origin, I don't know.

 

It was claimed, earlier, by the Spanish government that a number of images from earlier demonstrations depicting police violence were not current. Of that I have no idea, but this montage is clearly suspect. The origin of this would be useful

 

Apologies for the misinformation - I found the image on (I think) the twitter account of Catalans for Yes. It is unfortunate when things are deliberately taken out of context to make a point, especially when there seem to be contemporary, relevant photos they could have used to make the same point without exposing themselves to allegations of distortion. That said, I am more than willing to agree that these idiots are a minority who discredit the unity side. 

[Grouse]

I see the "president" of Catalonia has fled to Brussels!

What do we think of generals fleeing the battle field and leaving their lieutenants to carry the can? Not much. What a twit.

[dabhand]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Apologies for the misinformation - I found the image on (I think) the twitter account of Catalans for Yes. It is unfortunate when things are deliberately taken out of context to make a point, especially when there seem to be contemporary, relevant photos they could have used to make the same point without exposing themselves to allegations of distortion. That said, I am more than willing to agree that these idiots are a minority who discredit the unity side. 

Noted in your earlier comment:

As for the weekend demonstration, I understand that there were significant busloads of people brought in from other regions, and even from the south of France to swell the numbers.

 

Was this comment from the same twitter account? 

 

You mention 'contemporary, relevant photos they could have used to make the same point'. Where might these be found? 

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, dabhand said:

Noted in your earlier comment:

As for the weekend demonstration, I understand that there were significant busloads of people brought in from other regions, and even from the south of France to swell the numbers.

 

Was this comment from the same twitter account? 

 

You mention 'contemporary, relevant photos they could have used to make the same point'. Where might these be found? 

I think the standard response to posts such as yours is 'try googling' but I shall help you out.

 

Franco’s fascism is alive and kicking in Spain

 

Facism alive and well in Spain: Little girl with ribbon in her hair gives Franco salute as Catalonians split vote on quitting country

 

Spain supporters’ fascist salutes before independence demo

 

 

Protesters perform Nazi salutes during rallies over Catalan independence

 

 

[dabhand]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

I think the standard response to posts such as yours is 'try googling' but I shall help you out.

 

Franco’s fascism is alive and kicking in Spain

 

Facism alive and well in Spain: Little girl with ribbon in her hair gives Franco salute as Catalonians split vote on quitting country

 

Spain supporters’ fascist salutes before independence demo

 

 

Protesters perform Nazi salutes during rallies over Catalan independence

 

 

Err, these were what I found when I rebutted your earlier comment. So maybe you should have tried googling a bit earlier,. No?

I was expecting something from the recent demonstration or does your definition of 'contemporary' expand to suit your response? As any earlier pictures are not exactly on topic.

 

Any response on the source of the 'busloads'? Or do you wish me to do more googling for you?

 

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, dabhand said:

Err, these were what I found when I rebutted your earlier comment. So maybe you should have tried googling a bit earlier,. No?

I was expecting something from the recent demonstration or does your definition of 'contemporary' expand to suit your response? As any earlier pictures are not exactly on topic.

 

Any response on the source of the 'busloads'? Or do you wish me to do more googling for you?

 

Of course 'contemporary' is a subjective term - maybe you can give me your definition?

 

Link1 - 10/10/17

Link2 - 26/11/12 - a little dated but wholly relevant to the topic

Link3 - 8/10/17

Link4 - 9/10/17

 

However if these are considered old news, here is a report from 2 days ago:

 

Neo-Nazi salutes seen at protest against Catalonia independence