TM30 Query

[Andrew Dwyer]

.
so if one has to do a TM30 - whats the point of submitting a TM28 - as both give details of where i am residing ??
.

I moved province so went to immigration ( Ayutthaya )armed with TM28 and TM30, they basically ignored the TM28 and according to UJ this happens at other immigrations too.

Probably time to phase out the TM28 me thinks !

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

The tenant is the possessor and as such he is the house-master of the residence as defined in section 4 of the Immigration Act. This definition, applicable for the implementation of the Immigration Act, is very clear. This means that the tenant is two of the three persons whom immigration can hold responsible, under section 38, for submitting the TM.30 and fine for non-compliance.

Being the "possessor" does not make the person a "house-master". Your reading of the immigration act is wrong.

 

A "house-master" is determined outside of the immigration act. They are one of the people registered in the Tabian Baan of the property and considered to be the head of household (translated in the immigration act as house-master).

 

The definition in section 4 is simply clarifying that it doesn't matter what capacity the house-master has (tenant, long lost cousin, whatever) they are, as the house-master, responsible to report. It is possible that no "house-master" exists which is why the act specifies OWNER or POSSESSOR separately.

 

An owner would only be a "house-master" if named in the Tabian Baan. A possessor, that is not officially registered as living in the property, cannot be a "house-master" which is why the category of possessor exists.

 

OWNER: An owner is always one of the people responsible.

HOUSE-MASTER: The "house-master", if they exist and regardless of capacity, is one of the people responsible.

POSSESSOR: A possessor is anyone else that is not the owner or house-master, but is in possession of the property. E.g. Foreign tenant, Thai tenant not registered at the property.

[elviajero]

2 hours ago, properperson said:

so if one has to do a TM30 - whats the point of submitting a TM28 - as both give details of where i am residing ??

Simply put, the TM.28 is for you to advise a change of address, and the TM.30 is for someone else to independently confirm you're staying at the property.

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

A "house-master" is determined outside of the immigration act.

 

Section 4 of the Immigration Act defines the house-master for the purpose of implementation of the Immigration Act.

 

Other laws that also have a definition of house-master have that definition for the purpose of implementation of those laws. 

 

This is how the implementation of laws works.

[elviajero]

11 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

Section 4 of the Immigration Act defines the house-master for the purpose of implementation of the Immigration Act.

 

Other laws that also have a definition of house-master have that definition for the purpose of implementation of those laws. 

 

This is how the implementation of laws works.

Section 4. "“ House Master ” [Jao Baan in the Immigration Act.] means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act."

 

Section 38 : The house – master ["means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house ... in accordance with the law on people act"], the owner or the possessor of the residence , ... must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. 

 

Section 38 is saying that whoever is considered the 'house-master' in accordance with the law on people act is one of the people responsible for reporting; and that the capacity of the house-master is irrelevant ("whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever").

 

Section 38 : The house – master ["... whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever ..."], the owner or the possessor of the residence , ... must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. 

 

All Thais are aware that one of the people, registered in the Tabian Baan of a property, is considered the 'Jao Baan', which is better translated as 'Head of Household' (chief possessor, house-master). It's usually the owner, but it can be any registered person in whatever capacity they inhabit the property. It is that person that 'house-master', within the immigration act, is referring to.

 

Section 38 names three possible entities responsible to report (1) House-master OR (2) Owner OR (3) Possessor. Why does the act list house-master, owner, and possessor separately?

[tgeezer]

Has anyone found “ The Law of the People Act” I think that Citizenship Act would probably be a better translation. I haven’t managed to find it and it is a chore to keep switching apps. so ask here.
Clearly the sections of the ‘Immigration Act’ under discussion has two sections, the former 37 clearly states ‘responsibilities of aliens’ I read that as us. The latter, section 38, with all its titles seems to refer to people who fall within ‘The Law of the People Act’ , I think that we are not them.
Note that in the ‘notes’ on section 37, in spite of the ambiguity of the language, it seems to say that the Director General has the discretion to waive the provisions of reporting.

Now, if the Director General delegates his discretiion to Regional Immigration Officers and they decide not to waive the reporting requirments or to call condo owners/renters/ visitors, citizens in some instances and require us to report ourselves twice as if we were two people we can only sigh and comply.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[ubonjoe]

42 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Note that in the ‘notes’ on section 37, in spite of the ambiguity of the language, it seems to say that the Director General has the discretion to waive the provisions of reporting.

That is only for the address reporting under section 37. Not the reporting under section 38 that is being discussed here.

[tgeezer]

Yes ubonjoe, I know that but why? The illogicallity of one person reporting himself once under Section 37 and then once again and at the same time, under Section 38 has been pointed out countless times so what is the point of discussing it?
Most of the onerous things which we all have to do now have come about because this forum has supported or worse, tried to justify cases of individuals being given the ‘runaround’ so that Immigration has had to respond in the cause of fairness.
Sigh and suck it up, because highlighting your grievences doesn’t help you and inconveniences the rest of us.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[JackThompson]

The statues and such are more of an academic curiosity than anything else, at this point - used as a sort of "placeholder" for IOs to justify actions which may bear little or no resemblance to what the law intended.  In the end, all that matters is what the IO at you local office decides to enforce.  Consistency is not to be expected - even at the same office at different desks and/or time-frames.

 

It is similar to entering the country, where IOs can invent something they wish was law as a reason to reject-entry, then shoe-horn their actions into a legal category after the fact.  All we can do is find out where abuses of the law are occurring, then avoid or compensate, accordingly.

 

The most valuable function of this website is to let people know where (offices or checkpoints) IOs are doing what (invented/twisted rules and/or unofficial payments) to whom (visa-type, extension-type, or other imm-service), so we can adjust our plans, accordingly. 

 

If all IOs consistently followed a well-defined standard, this forum would only have occasional posts announcing newly published ministerial orders with a statement from the head of immigration explaining precisely how that order would be enforced (everywhere, consistently, every time).

[Tanoshi]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:34 PM, BritTim said:

 

• TM87 (application for visa when doing a conversion from tourist entry to non immigrant entry, by alien)

If you already have a Visa (TV) then it would be a TM86 that needs to be filed.

TM87 is to apply for a Visa (Non O) when you don't have a Visa, such as Visa exempt entry.

[tgeezer]

This is true enough but it applies only to people who are not entitled to stay long term but want to, they are stretching the rules and should not expect each IO to respond in a consistent manner everytime.
I wonder whether I am right in spending only five months of my one year extension here! It could be argued that retiring to Thailand means just that.
My passport expired last summer so my extension was due to expire when I was not in Thailand, I was told that I needed to apply for a new Non Imm visa in UK. I wondered why I was not told to enter as a visitor and get the visa here which seems to be an acceptable procedure now.
Incidentally it must be irksome for the pedants here to have to redefine visa which, as they teach is issued outside the country for the purpose of entering a country!


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Tanoshi]

15 hours ago, elviajero said:

Section 4. "“ House Master ” [Jao Baan in the Immigration Act.] means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act."

House Master is 'Nay Baan' in the Immigration Act.

Head of Household is 'Jao Baan' in the Civil Registration Act.

 

[tgeezer]

What is The Civil Registration Act in Thai ? I may as well research that , although I think that we all agree that laws rules etc are irrelevant, it might help my Thai language.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[nasa123]

On 9.11.2017 at 4:41 PM, Tanoshi said:

I've always filed my own TM30's.

Never relied on any landlords or my wife to file something I could do.

But if you rent a house ++ you most have copy off the Land Lords ID Card whit signatur + TM30. And if the Land Lord live outside Thailand or another part of Thailand the Land Lord can do it online, like hotell makes.But they must register with Immigration first.

But its the Land Lords work to do TM30 to Immigration, or they can use Police Station if there are long trip to closest Immigration.

[elviajero]

4 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

House Master is 'Nay Baan' in the Immigration Act.

Head of Household is 'Jao Baan' in the Civil Registration Act.

This is the Thai version of the immigration act.

https://www.immigration.go.th/read?content_id=58b4f72454b2f90a80136447

เจ้าบ้าน หมายความว่า ผู้ซึ่งเป็นหัวหน้าครอบครองบ้าน ในฐานะเป็นเจ้าของ ผู้เช่า หรือในฐานะอื่นใด ตามกฎหมายว่าด้วยการทะเบียนราษฎร
เคหสถาน หมายความว่า ที่ซึ่งใช้เป็นที่อยู่อาศัย เช่น เรือน โรง เรือ หรือแพซึ่งคนอยู่อาศัย และให้หมายความรวมถึงบริเวณของที่ซึ่งใช้เป็นที่อยู่อาศัยนั้นด้วย จะมีรั้วล้อมหรือไม่ก็ตาม ตามประมวลกฎหมายอาญา

 

เจ้า บ้าน = Jao Baan. It could be translated as 'master house', but I think 'head of house' is better. Either way it means the most important person in the house. It doesn't say 'Nai Baan' ( ใน บ้าน ), which would be 'in/inside house'.

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, tgeezer said:

My passport expired last summer so my extension was due to expire when I was not in Thailand, I was told that I needed to apply for a new Non Imm visa in UK. I wondered why I was not told to enter as a visitor and get the visa here which seems to be an acceptable procedure now.

That is easier to do at some offices than others.  It's two trips to Immigration, even if living in Bangkok, where conversions at Chang Wattana are processed in a routine fashion. 

 

It is much better to come with Non-Imm from the UK, if possible - then go straight to a retirement-extension after arrival, skipping the conversion hassles. 

 

When that isn't possible (given Non-O Single Entries based on retirement are not available in the UK unless in receipt of a state-pension), and if your local office doesn't "like to do" conversions (since Bangkok won't let us do it there any more, unless living there), then a trip to Savanakhet, Laos may be the next-best option.

[tgeezer]

My feeling is that the IO was relieved that I was able to apply for a retirement extension within the rules and her advice was to do just that. It can’t be easy for these officers to have to make so many compromises. The non immigrant O visa issued in head office involves the ministry and is a new facility probably in itself an effort to wrest back some control over visas. Embassies in neighbouring countries were illegally giving people who were not nationals of those countries non immigrant visas which Thailand had to honour.
Almost every post here is about bending the rules, which means that quite a lot of an immigration policeman’s lot involves bending the rules, this can’t be pleasant way to spend the day.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Maestro]

20 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Has anyone found “ The Law of the People Act” I think that Citizenship Act would probably be a better translation. I haven’t managed to find it and it is a chore to keep switching apps. so ask here.

 

What is referred to as "the law on people act" in section 4 of the English translation of the Immigration Act is commonly known as the Civil Registration Act. The original Thai version is here:

Civil Registration Act B.E. 2534 - updated with No. 2 of 2551

 

So far, I have not been able to find an English translation of it.

 

[Maestro]

14 hours ago, nasa123 said:

But if you rent a house ++ you most have copy off the Land Lords ID Card whit signatur + TM30. And if the Land Lord live outside Thailand or another part of Thailand the Land Lord can do it online, like hotell makes.But they must register with Immigration first.

But its the Land Lords work to do TM30 to Immigration, or they can use Police Station if there are long trip to closest Immigration.

 

The Immigration Act makes no mention of a landlord.

 

For a residence, section 38 of the Immigration Act makes it the responsibility of the house-master, owner or possessor of the residence to notify the arrival of a foreigner at the residence. For a leased residence, it is practical for the tenant, who is the possessor of the residence and therefore the house-master as defined in section 4 of the Immigration Act, to make this notification. As some immigration offices have begun to ask for this notification to be accompanied by a signed copy of the owner's ID card and house registration book (passport in case of a foreign owner), it is advisable to obtain these copies at the time of signing the lease contract and to write into the contract that the owner agrees to supply to the tenant any document copies that an immigration office or any other Thai government office may require from the tenant relating to the owner or the leased property.

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

What is referred to as "the law on people act" in section 4 of the English translation of the Immigration Act is commonly known as the Civil Registration Act. The original Thai version is here:

Civil Registration Act B.E. 2534 - updated with No. 2 of 2551

 

So far, I have not been able to find an English translation of it.

English translation (not sure of the quality): https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-civil-registration-act.html

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

What is referred to as "the law on people act" in section 4 of the English translation of the Immigration Act is commonly known as the Civil Registration Act. The original Thai version is here:

Civil Registration Act B.E. 2534 - updated with No. 2 of 2551

 

So far, I have not been able to find an English translation of it.

 

According to my wife, the term 'the law on people act' has a much broader definition and means any law that covers the people, not necessarily just the Civil Registration Act, but also any other Act or law, such as the Civil and Commercial Codes.

 

The nearest I have come to finding an English translation of the original Civil Registration Act BE 2534 is the Citizenship Manual that makes references to the 1991 Act. I'm assuming you've already seen this, but just in case;

Citizenship Manual..pdf

Edited November 15, 2017 by Tanoshi

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, BritTim said:

English translation (not sure of the quality): https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-civil-registration-act.html

Those are amendments (2008) to the original Act of 1991.

[Tanoshi]

17 hours ago, elviajero said:

This is the Thai version of the immigration act.

https://www.immigration.go.th/read?content_id=58b4f72454b2f90a80136447

เจ้าบ้าน หมายความว่า ผู้ซึ่งเป็นหัวหน้าครอบครองบ้าน ในฐานะเป็นเจ้าของ ผู้เช่า หรือในฐานะอื่นใด ตามกฎหมายว่าด้วยการทะเบียนราษฎร
เคหสถาน หมายความว่า ที่ซึ่งใช้เป็นที่อยู่อาศัย เช่น เรือน โรง เรือ หรือแพซึ่งคนอยู่อาศัย และให้หมายความรวมถึงบริเวณของที่ซึ่งใช้เป็นที่อยู่อาศัยนั้นด้วย จะมีรั้วล้อมหรือไม่ก็ตาม ตามประมวลกฎหมายอาญา

 

เจ้า บ้าน = Jao Baan. It could be translated as 'master house', but I think 'head of house' is better. Either way it means the most important person in the house. It doesn't say 'Nai Baan' ( ใน บ้าน ), which would be 'in/inside house'.

 

Which brings us back to the definition of House Master under section 4.

 

That just means under the Immigration Act, the owner, or possessor of the house can be classed as Joa Baan for purposes of registration of a TM30.

 

Under the Civil Registration Act I am classed as Poo Assai (person living here), unless I owned my own property outright and could be named as Joa Baan in a Yellow Tabien Baan.

 

Head of Household, and House Master under the 2 Acts have different meanings as to who is regarded as the responsible person for the house.

 

 

[LongTimeLurker]

Forum members using Jomtien office to file TM30's should be aware that there's a new procedure to file and that is to take a queue number from the information desk first.

 

This caught out myself and a few others yesterday and was not the procedure when I last reported on 20 October.

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Which brings us back to the definition of House Master under section 4.

 

That just means under the Immigration Act, the owner, or possessor of the house can be classed as Joa Baan for purposes of registration of a TM30.

It really doesn't. The definition is simply to confirm that whoever is classed as the house-master of the property is liable to report regardless of their capacity. Unless someone is formally registered as living at the property they will not be considered the house-master by any authority. They would simply be considered the possessor.

 

Look at the TM.30 form. It asks the person signing to indicate whether or not they are signing as the house-master or owner or possessor.

 

Section 38 names three possible entities responsible to report (1) House-master OR (2) Owner OR (3) Possessor. Maybe you can answer why the act lists house-master, owner, and possessor separately? Because according to your logic an owner or possessor is the house-master. And maybe you could give an example of a possessor that isn't considered a house-master. And maybe you can explain why section 4 refers to another act.

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by elviajero

[tgeezer]

Population registration act defines the Jaobaan in the same way but lists his duties as far as registration of house occupants is concerned, presumably registering birth, deaths, eligilability for schooling all sorts of things which need a signature of the responsible adult in the dwelling. It is logical that he would be the one responsible for registering the presence of an alien under the Immigration Act. But this discussion is about a decree by some Immigration Offices that we can take on the role of registration of an alien, we should probably just read Jaobaan in “The Act” and ignore the reference to PRB. Gantabienratsadon.
In my opinion when one signs “The Form” at the insistence of Immigration one signs as oneself, one cannot assume any titles which one doesn’t understand.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect