Brexit never? Britain can still change its mind, says Article 50 author

[Chomper Higgot]

13 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

But you didn't provide any examples of how Putin could influence the result of the referendum. You merely provided an unrelated story which flared up in the msm and was got to the bottom of by said msm.

 

No I did.

 

I provided you an explanation of how exactly Putin could manipulate tools available in search engines and on social media to influence an electoral process.

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Chomper Higgot

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, adammike said:

The referendum was a second vote we had one back in 75,that didn't stop the brexiters campaigning to leave and have another referendum so don't expect the remainers to just dissappear.The EU and the terms we signed up for back in 75 have changed so the referendum was hard to deny,only 38% of the electorate voted to leave that won the ballot  hardly the will of the people. Theresa campaigned to give her a mandate for a hard Brexit she didn't get it,What we know now and due to the scandalous leave campaign with dubious backing and funding and the way the Tories are handling the Brexit negotiations a new referendum or election when it's clear what's on the table near to the date when we leave the EU should happen. 

 

I'm sure you can agitate for a further forty years.

[Khun Han]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

 

No I did.

 

No you didn't.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

No you didn't.

Here it is again:

 

Quote

Here's something we can all observe:

 

We search from a product or service on the internet, perhaps look for information on "Water Heaters" . Within moments of us searching for this we find adverts for "Water Heaters" start appearing in the adverts we see alongside the online newspapers we read, or indeed here on Thai Visa. 

Water heaters will start appearing in our social media streams and we might start receiving messages over social media for water heaters, perhaps even via our email.

 

The algorithms driving this direction of adverts also drive the news feeds that are presented to us, the recommendations we receive for articles and information that might interest us. 

 

The means to manipulate public opinion have come out of the advertising industry and and are embedded into the internet, search engines and social media. 

 

The tools to manipulate opinion exist, are in operation, are proven to work and are available for hire. 

If you believe this is not an example of how Putin (or anyone else for that matter) can use the internet, search engines and social media to manipulate the information people receive and hence their opinions, don't just say you don't agree, provide a reasoned argument. 

[Khun Han]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It's a bit dodgy if the targeting is being done by a foreign government - effectively a foreign government interfering in the electoral process. 

 

Or do you feel that foreign governments interfering with the electoral process is acceptable?

 

 

Do you have any proof of what you claim wrt the brexit campaign?

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, Khun Han said:

 

Do you have any proof of what you claim wrt the brexit campaign?

Where have I said it definitely happened. 

 

I have said the tools exist to enable this to happen and are available for hire. 

So BLACK AND WHITE - I have not said that Putin (or any other foreign power) has acted to influence the Brexit campaign. 

 

BLACK AND WHITE - Would you agree with me that IF a foreign power were proven to have influenced ANY election or referendum in the UK then that would be a very serious matter deserving of investigation?

 

[Khun Han]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Here it is again:

 

If you believe this is not an example of how Putin (or anyone else for that matter) can use the internet, search engines and social media to manipulate the information people receive and hence their opinions, don't just say you don't agree, provide a reasoned argument. 

I want you to provide proof that Putin did what you claim. All you have presented so far is hyperbole. Effective presentation of Vote Leave's message is not manipulation by anybody, least of all by a foreign entity.

[Khun Han]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Where have I said it definitely happened. 

 

I have said the tools exist to enable this to happen and are available for hire. 

So BLACK AND WHITE - I have not said that Putin (or any other foreign power) has acted to influence the Brexit campaign. 

 

BLACK AND WHITE - Would you agree with me that IF a foreign power were proven to have influenced ANY election or referendum in the UK then that would be a very serious matter deserving of investigation?

 

 

I am not interested in your hypothetical questions. Such debating tools are just dead end roads. We're going round in circles now (which isn't any more interesting than going down dead end roads). Put up or shut up wrt Putin and brexit.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Khun Han

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

I want you to provide proof that Putin did what you claim. All you have presented so far is hyperbole. Effective presentation of Vote Leave's message is not manipulation by anybody, least of all by a foreign entity.

Again, I have nowhere made any claim that Putin manipulated or influenced the referendum.

 

You asked earlier how he could possibly have done so and I gave information on how that might happen BLACK AND WHITE - I did not say Putin (or any other foreign power) had manipulated or influenced the referrendum.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I am not interested in your hypothetical questions. Such debating tools are just dead end roads. We're going round in circles now (which isn't any more interesting than going down dead end roads). Put up or shut up wrt Putin and brexit.

Can you please show me where I sad that Putin influenced the Brexit referendum - Put up or have the decency to admit your claim that I said such things is in error. 

 

 

[Khun Han]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Again, I have nowhere made any claim that Putin manipulated or influenced the referendum.

 

You asked earlier how he could possibly have done so and I gave information on how that might happen BLACK AND WHITE - I did not say Putin (or any other foreign power) had manipulated or influenced the referrendum.

 

I was asking Rocking Robin for some proof, not some convoluted theory like the one you came up with.

[Khun Han]

11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Can you please show me where I sad that Putin influenced the Brexit referendum - Put up or have the decency to admit your claim that I said such things is in error. 

 

 

 

You made this claim:

 

"Cambridge Analytica, a company that provides these services, gave it's services free to the Brexit Leave campaign and is now implicated as having acted for Russia in the US elections. 

 

Cambridge Analytica is being investigated in both the US and UK for the part it has played in manipulating voter opinions. "

 

And you still haven't corrected your false claim that Cambridge Analytica is being investigated in the UK.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I was asking Rocking Robin for some proof, not some convoluted theory like the one you came up with.

KH, I have nowhere claimed that Putin interfered with the referendum, or indeed that Putin did anything.

 

The only certainty I have in this discussion is you're not man enough to admit you made a mistake. 

 

[Khun Han]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

KH, I have nowhere claimed that Putin interfered with the referendum, or indeed that Putin did anything.

 

The only certainty I have in this discussion is you're not man enough to admit you made a mistake. 

 

 

Go troll somebody else. Ah, I just noticed (a bit slow of me): new member, thirteen posts. I wonder who ?

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

You made this claim:

 

"Cambridge Analytica, a company that provides these services, gave it's services free to the Brexit Leave campaign and is now implicated as having acted for Russia in the US elections. 

 

Cambridge Analytica is being investigated in both the US and UK for the part it has played in manipulating voter opinions. "

 

And you still haven't corrected your false claim that Cambridge Analytica is being investigated in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/17/inquiry-launched-into-how-uk-parties-target-voters-through-social-media

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Go troll somebody else. Ah, I just noticed (a bit slow of me): new member, thirteen posts. I wonder who ?

New here and already having to put up with your inability to withdraw an accusation you made against me. 

[boomerangutang]

55 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Difficult to know where to begin with the above pile of nonsense. Why is flagging up your evidence-free tin foil hat theory about the Russians shrill or defensive? And your theory gets ever-more crackpot - now you're saying that they changed peoples' minds without people even realising it .

 

Luddite? No I live in the UK in a big city, where people meet and interact day in day out. Most people use the internet for shopping and a bit of social interaction outside of actually meeting their friends socially (you know? posting photos and comments about parties, nights out and suchlike on Facebook, etc?). Maybe you, living in the middle of nowhere, in a foreign culture, rely on the internet for most of your interaction with the outside world?

I'm no fan of Trump. But it's easy to see why he won the presidency: enough people are sick to the back teeth of being treated like mushrooms by the establishment. I very much doubt Trump will be any better for the people, but he, as an outsider, got a huge protest vote. Of course, the establishment, instead of giving itself a good dose of self-reflection and working out how it can improve to better serve the public, merely goes on the attack with it's red herrings like 'Russian interference'.

I never said for sure that Putin/Russia influenced Brit voters. 

What I said was; it's possible.  And, if Russian agents did it as well as they're trained to do such things, Brits wouldn't even know they were being flummoxed.  

If Scotland Yard had suspicions/evidence, they may not want to publish it because...

 

A.  It would be embarrassing, and

B.  It might cause social distress (similar to what's going on in the US re; Russia's interference with the prez election)

 

Plus earlier, I outlined reasons why Brexit would be advantageous to Putin. 

 

As for influencing people on the internet - it's easy.  That's what advertising is:  It aims to influence how people spend money.   Tweak that a tiny bit, and you can see how it's easy to influence people to voting certain ways on political issues.

 

Perhaps an investigative step would be to see whether FB ads aimed at British users, in the year leading up to the Brexit vote, were paid by Rubles and/or people with Russian connections.  Of course there are hundreds of other blogs which Brits are involved with, but FB is biggest.

 

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/17/inquiry-launched-into-how-uk-parties-target-voters-through-social-media

 

 

"The information commissioner has launched an investigation into the way UK political parties target voters through social media with a warning that if they send political messages to people based on their individual data, they could be breaking the law."

 

"The watchdog said it had already contacted Cambridge Analytica, a New York-based company that claims to be “the global leader in data-driven campaigning” and has been linked to the Leave.EU campaign. It has also contacted Aggregate IQ, a Canadian data analytics company that provided services for Vote Leave. Cambridge Analytica has said it has never been retained nor done any work, paid or unpaid, for Leave.EU."

 

Note: contacted Cambridge Analytica wrt a wider investigation.

 

By bye. I doubt you'll be around for much longer anyway. Why don't you come back next time as Mang Chai or Mai Chang? Just a suggestion.

[Khun Han]

1 minute ago, boomerangutang said:

I never said for sure that Putin/Russia influenced Brit voters. 

What I said was; it's possible.  And, if Russian agents did it as well as they're trained to do such things, Brits wouldn't even know they were being flummoxed.  

If Scotland Yard had suspicions/evidence, they may not want to publish it because...

 

A.  It would be embarrassing, and

B.  It might cause social distress (similar to what's going on in the US re; Russia's interference with the prez election)

 

Plus earlier, I outlined reasons why Brexit would be advantageous to Putin. 

 

As for influencing people on the internet - it's easy.  That's what advertising is:  It aims to influence how people spend money.   Tweak that a tiny bit, and you can see how it's easy to influence people to voting certain ways on political issues.

 

Perhaps an investigative step would be to see whether FB ads aimed at British users, in the year leading up to the Brexit vote, were paid by Rubles and/or people with Russian connections.  Of course there are hundreds of other blogs which Brits are involved with, but FB is biggest.

 

 

Read the link Chang Mai provided a few posts up. Every political campaign is using Facebook and suchlike. Why try to demonise vote leave over this?

[dundee48]

10 hours ago, impulse said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/11/euro-2016-french-police-tactics-raise-fears-of-more-clashes-with-england-fans

 

Brexit referendum was 12 days later. 

Bless-the Gaurdian

 

10 hours ago, impulse said:

 

You don't think Putin is smart enough to foment discontent with Eastern European immigration in the runup to the Brexit vote, in an effort to influence the outcome? 

 

All he had to do is get 2.1% of the UK people to hate Eastern Europeans more than they already do, since low wage Polish immigrants were one of the hot button issues.  Of course, even he didn't know it was just 2.1%...

 

Hahahaha,even the usual remoaners are not `liking` this garbage and they `like` anything anti Brexit.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

By bye. I doubt you'll be around for much longer anyway. Why don't you come back next time as Mang Chai or Mai Chang? Just a suggestion.

I'm not going anywhere fast KH, but the investigations are.

 

Care you withdraw your false allegation against me or are you not man enough?

[Khun Han]

 

 ^And the theory about Russian hooligans from the guy you quote is so 'out there' it would embarrass the tin foil hat brigade.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Khun Han

[dundee48]

9 hours ago, AGareth2 said:

because in the leaflet that was sent to homes they said they would implement the peoples' desicion

Oops.

[dundee48]

31 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/17/inquiry-launched-into-how-uk-parties-target-voters-through-social-media

 

Bless,the Gaurdian.

[Chelseafan]

5 hours ago, adammike said:

,only 38% of the electorate voted to leave that won the ballot  hardly the will of the people. T

Yes but 72% voted which makes it one of the highest turn-outs for many years. Maybe I'm leaping to conclusions but I suspect many of the 28% who didn't vote would of been in the CDE demographic group (low income, typically right-wing, anti-immigration etc) and judging by the polls would of more likely voted to leave anyhow making the margin to leave much higher.

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Chelseafan

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Nice try, but pointless unless you show net figures. France gets most of its stake back, for example, while Britain has been paying additional on net again due to big gains in economy.

 

As for Britain whining 'the whole time' and making things difficult - and EU being better off without UK, blah-de-blah  - well that is just more puerile I-don't-have-a mind-of-my-own twaddle. Negotiations over the years in general have been productive and other EU states have only gained when Britain has stood up for itself and others with creative options... something no other state ever has the balls to do.

 

I believe our last payment went up to 10.9 billion Sterling with the economy-based add ons.

[Chelseafan]

6 hours ago, mrfill said:

You seem to have forgotten to mention that the terms of the first vote were terrible and after considerable changes, the terms improved sufficiently to make ratification acceptable to the Irish. Their economic growth since accepting the Lisbon Treaty suggests they were correct.

However, the UK electorate are expected to accept whatever crappy deal is put together with no chance of rejection and re-negotiation as the Brexit camp will not accept that the people should decide if a deal is bad or good. Now, why would that be?

I wasn't aware of any serious improvements on the deal. I'm not saying you are wrong but I can't see anything on the web. What were the improvements ?

 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, Dagnabbit said:

 

I am pro-Brexit and I think I may be bright. I work from home running a software company that I started from nothing & now makes 7 figures a year.  I designed it, marketed it, became the face of the company. Soup to nuts - all from me sitting down in front of a PC with some good ideas and half-decent execution skills.  I literally have no asset I can use to do my job other than my brain and of course - my fingers.

 

I am pro-Brexit because the whole EU political machine is corrupt and cannot be fixed. 

 

Are you saying I am an anomaly? Because I have a friend who is also pro-Brexit and he also runs a software company in a different field that he started from scratch and it dwarfs mine. 

 

I can't actually think of anything dumber than believing people with a different opinion from me are less intelligent. That sort of opinion is born through complete lack of critical thinking. You would have to be thoroughly dense to believe such a thing. Now - I am sure you will display your lack of critical thinking skills with a dose of confirmation bias, which I await with baited breath...

You and your friend should try and get out a little more and see some other European countries at first hand. Compare and contrast with conditions in the UK. Whereas the EU is far from perfect it is NOT the cause of our problems.

[boomerangutang]

8 hours ago, Khun Han said:

Read the link Chang Mai provided a few posts up. Every political campaign is using Facebook and suchlike. Why try to demonise vote leave over this?

So now we're having a discussion, good.

A while earlier, you were tossing aspersions at my posts, as if I were saying Elizabeth II was a man.

Who's demonizing anything?  If there was Russian interference, wouldn't Brits want to know? If it's shown to be a nothing-spotted-dick, then ok, then onward to other things. 

 

But if, after the mere mention of the possibility, certain people start shouting 'No! nothing to be seen behind that curtain. Don't look! You're an imbecile for broaching that issue!'

 

 

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

So now we're having a discussion, good.

A while earlier, you were tossing aspersions at my posts, as if I were saying Elizabeth II was a man.

Who's demonizing anything?  If there was Russian interference, wouldn't Brits want to know? If it's shown to be a nothing-spotted-dick, then ok, then onward to other things. 

 

But if, after the mere mention of the possibility, certain people start shouting 'No! nothing to be seen behind that curtain. Don't look! You're an imbecile for broaching that issue!'

 

 

 

You came up with a baseless conspiracy theory with bizarre explanations, so you were ridiculed. Anyone on the leave side trying to introduce New World Order globalism/the Rothschilds gets the same treatment from remainers.

 

What concerns me about 'the Russian threat' is not internet conspiracy theorists like yourself. It's not even 'the Russian threat' itself (which, in the case of the USA, appears to have held more sway over the last Dem government than the current Trump one). It's the fact that the liberal left sees it as a tool to reverse democratic decisions it doesn't like: US presidential election; brexit; Catalonia. See a pattern emerging?