smedly Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, taipeir said: ...Or you could have another vote for determine what kind of Brexit you want. In or out of the various institutions now the ramifications are becoming clearer. That's democracy. Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk leave means leave, what customs and trade arrangement comes after has little to do with it, they must leave the customs union to allow them to freely trade globally There will be a customs arrangement after that might resemble the current customs union but without the restrictions on global trade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smedly Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, Grouse said: It is blindingly obvious that some kind of federalised or cantonalised state of Ireland is the optimum solution. Think Wallonia and Flemand (also Catholic/Protestant) we are so blessed with all your solutions but you are forgetting something very important..........................just as with Scotland the people of N. Ireland do not agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orac Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 One option here would be to offer to give the people of NI a meaning vote on their future after any trade negotiations have been completed - either stay in UK or reunify with Ireland. Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taipeir Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 and Scotland voted to remain but the UK didn't - Scotland also voted to remain part of the UK and so did N. Ireland can you spot the difference lol There is none, it was the UK that voted - not Scotland Wales N. Ireland.....The UK voted .................. get it By your faulty reasoning you could divide the UK into counties and even cities and allow them all to remain or stay as they voted lol How daft is that That's exactly how Northern Ireland was created. They chopped off the other three provinces of Ireland, then chopped out the bigger majority nationalist countries of the province of Ulster and then gerrymandered a new statelet called 'Northern Ireland" with majority unionists population . If Northern Ireland just included the three other counties of Ulster alone it would be out of UK already. Demographics of NI are moving towards united or federal Ireland ultimately. Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smedly Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, Orac said: One option here would be to offer to give the people of NI a meaning vote on their future after any trade negotiations have been completed - either stay in UK or reunify with Ireland. Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect That is always an option as with Scotland, but can only happen after the brexit process has been fully completed, you might find that what turns out might not be so bad..................no way to know right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taipeir Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 It should also be remembered the DUP are NOT the government of northern Ireland, there is no functioning government there and there is an almost equal split between the nationalists and unionists.The DUP is not negotiating on behalf of Northern Ireland.If you looked at the island of Ireland as a whole the DUP represent just something like 10 per cent of its population.Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smedly Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, taipeir said: That's exactly how Northern Ireland was created. They chopped off the other three provinces of Ireland, then chopped out the bigger majority nationalist countries of the province of Ulster and then gerrymandered a new statelet called 'Northern Ireland" with majority unionists population . Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk what they did was created a solution were two groups of people wanted something different, those that wanted to remain in the UK were given a small slice of the Island that remained so, a perfect solution and one that has been used throughout history around the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smedly Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, taipeir said: It should also be remembered the DUP are NOT the government of northern Ireland, there is no functioning government there and there is an almost equal split between the nationalists and unionists. The DUP is not negotiating on behalf of Northern Ireland. Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk very true and another point worth noting is that there are many catholics that want to remain in the UK also so it is not 50/50 as you would like to think, currently including the whole population of N. Ireland it is more like 70/30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retiredandhappyhere Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 2 hours ago, Baerboxer said: Unless a deal is done in which the UK doesn't leave the single market and/or customs union. The Irish government, whilst usually fairly sensible, are asking for a written guarantee that can't be given as no one knows if a deal will be reached and what that deal will look like. A large section of the NI people won't accept NI being treated differently to the rest of the UK. The devil is always in the detail! And the complexities we're now seeing were gleefully glossed over by the muppets who implied leaving would be easy and vast some of money would be instantly available for the NHS etc. Only they lied. The sensible thing would be, now real actual facts around what leaving means in reality are known by the public, would be to have an election or referendum fought on withdrawing Article 50 and remaining in the EU. And no, the previous Brexit referendum wasn't a once in a life time, one off only, never to be discussed again vote as some like to pretend. And nor would the next referendum be universally accepted. However, the third ........or fourth one...................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taipeir Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 what they did was created a solution were two groups of people wanted something different, those that wanted to remain in the UK were given a small slice of the Island that remained so, a perfect solution and one that has been used throughout history around the worldPerfect my arse northern Ireland is the poorest part of the UK, sectarianism was and is still rife, was racked with decades of violence and still backwards in many respects. Sucks up billions of British taxpayers money every year.Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 A Northern Ireland Election would be good right now. I'll bet the Republicans and the Remainers will be in the majority. The orange bowler brigade can merge with The Netherlands! Who, in the rump of the UK (except Three Degrees) gives a damn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taipeir Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Why not allow northern Ireland and the individual parts of UK to vote to stay in customs union or not?Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david555 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 More "fun" is there waiting .....( and a veto more against U.K...) not forget a sure strong Gibraltar border coming .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 18 minutes ago, smedly said: we are so blessed with all your solutions but you are forgetting something very important..........................just as with Scotland the people of N. Ireland do not agree http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/united-ireland-referendum-brexit-vote-inevitable-irish-parliament-report-mark-daly-fianna-fail-a7873696.html What was the result of the last NI vote on independence/reunification ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smedly Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 6 minutes ago, taipeir said: Why not allow northern Ireland and the individual parts of UK to vote to stay in customs union or not? Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk why not put yourself up for election and then you can pursue your agenda properly As it stands and has been explained many times - the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU, not individual cities counties etc............the UK voted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jai Dee Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Several off-topic argumentative posts have been removed from this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david555 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, smedly said: why not put yourself up for election and then you can pursue your agenda properly As it stands and has been explained many times - the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU, not individual cities counties etc............the UK voted "As it stands "..... you shall leave indeed .... but whiteout a trade deal I guess .....leaving is leaving not taking a part of the house with .... (my thoughts is that by now the E.U. does not really want a deal anymore as the know and see that they attract many opportunities from U.K. already ... just playing the game on ...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david555 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 48 minutes ago, smedly said: That is always an option as with Scotland, but can only happen after the brexit process has been fully completed, you might find that what turns out might not be so bad..................no way to know right now That is exactly what happened with the referendum .....never was truly explained what would happen .... remember ..... getting country back.... " 350 millions a week for NHS.... stopping immigration ....." I do not read NHS is happy now ...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smedly Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 17 minutes ago, david555 said: "As it stands "..... you shall leave indeed .... but whiteout a trade deal I guess .....leaving is leaving not taking a part of the house with .... (my thoughts is that by now the E.U. does not really want a deal anymore as the know and see that they attract many opportunities from U.K. already ... just playing the game on ...) what the majority of the UK wants is to be no part of the United States of Germany, what they do want is to go back to the EEC were it all began and get back their sovereignty, the EU has morphed into and undemocratic mess that (IMO) is about to implode on itself, even the founders of the EU concept and single currency have said it has not developed as they planned it or hoped it would developed The EU primary objective right now (again IMO) is to stop brexit happening by any means, that is what I see going on, they are using every means possible to destabilise the UK using media - scandals - courts....any dirty trick they can muster and yes as suggested they don't want a deal unless they have no option left and have exhausted every attempt they can think of to stop brexit happening, they believe that the UK will not leave without a deal - that is the test and it is going to happen next month But rest assured if the only option left for the EU is to have a deal with the 6th largest economy in the world then in the interest of Business they will get round the table and talk and stop all this stalling nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smedly Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 11 minutes ago, david555 said: That is exactly what happened with the referendum .....never was truly explained what would happen .... remember ..... getting country back.... " 350 millions a week for NHS.... stopping immigration ....." I do not read NHS is happy now ...! The brexit process will take a long time to complete, it is not just about leaving the EU, March 2019 will see the UK embark on a journey that will take time and I am taking about trade deals with other countries etc etc, when will the UK see the benefits of leaving - not for at least 5 years or longer but I am confident that removing the EU shackles will allow the UK to prosper on its own..........why not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Orac said: One option here would be to offer to give the people of NI a meaning vote on their future after any trade negotiations have been completed - either stay in UK or reunify with Ireland. Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect 49 minutes ago, taipeir said: Perfect my arse northern Ireland is the poorest part of the UK, sectarianism was and is still rife, was racked with decades of violence and still backwards in many respects. Sucks up billions of British taxpayers money every year. Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk A promised referendum at the end of the brexit process for those in N. Ireland on whether to remain as part of the UK/join S. Ireland - has to be a v good idea for everyone involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 6 hours ago, webfact said: Britain will not resolve the question of the Irish border after Brexit until it has also agreed the outline of a trade deal with the European Union, the country's International Trade Minister Liam Fox said on Sunday. The Irish may have a very different view of that, Liam. And guess what...they hold a veto on any deal done with you and your merry band of brexiteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 4 hours ago, whatsupdoc said: So the UK first agrees that there should be progress on the border problem before trade talks can start, then asks for something that is just about impossible, they reject an obvious solution given by the Irish and EU (NI stays in CU), offer no solutions themselves and they still expect the EU to go along with that? brexiteers relationship with realism and logic has never been that strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve187 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 2 hours ago, aslimversgwm said: So what? the UK voted to not have non UK residents having the freedom to roam the UK,. thats what Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 3 hours ago, steve187 said: how can northern island stay in the CU, its part of great Britain and as such will be out of the EU, there has to be a border control, otherwise we would have no control over any EU citizen or anyone with a schengen visa from walking in, as northern island is in the common travel area they could then travel onto England & Scotland as well as others. I have a solution, but the english and the unionists won't like it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve187 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 lots of non hards required by some, no hard brexit, no hard borders, what did we have before the 4th riech took place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 3 hours ago, the guest said: They had a vote and that's it. Democracy must be upheld, otherwise we might as well live in a dictatorship. So having a vote is democracy, but having another is dictatorship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve187 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Bluespunk said: I have a solution, but the english and the unionists won't like it... go on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve187 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Just now, Bluespunk said: So having a vote is democracy, but having another is dictatorship? failing to observe the result of the vote is dictatorship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Just now, steve187 said: go on Nope, it would completely derail this topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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