Thaksin Gives Live Interview To CNN

[Plus]

If Thais could describe "suffiency economy" in scientific terms, they'd get a Nobel prize.

It's an approach to life, and it's not someting totally new when they explain it.

I see it as a shift in values. Who'd deny that wisdom is important, for example. They are just putting more value on it - not to rush things until you are sure what you are doing. Their first attempts at praciticing it were, of course, pathetic. They got it slightly better with FBA, and almost right with Singapore.

Half of Thailand is built in a halp-hazard way, a little more wisdom won't hurt.

Or moderation, who'd argue against that? It's easy to get carried away milking a cash cow, be it exports, FDI, or whatever, but what feels good today might come back at you tomorrow. One twist in world prices and all your ecnomy olds like a card house.

Scaling down Thaksin's mega-projects is an example of moderation.

Perhaps the easiest way to put numbers on it is "immunity", or whatever they call it. Don't overexpose yourself and keep your debt levels under control. Economists have covered that area thoroughly, from international banking to personal finance.

Thaksin had been borrowing and writing off debts for five years without stopping. Some rice pledging scheme no one knew about raked up 100 bil a year, more than the infamous Oil Fund.

Of course Thaksin praised self-sufficiency in public, and in fact his dual-track ideas were exactly in line with sufficiency economy, problem was that it was mostly lip service. When it was decision making time he didn't put enough weight to thinking through or risk management. Getting it done was more important than getting it right, or getting it done without going deep in debt.

[younghusband]

TWO international magazines.

This is what the Nation had to say about those articles.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/pag...amp;id=30024314

I think its important to understand the scepticism expressed by international opinion is very widely shared, and frankly it doesn't matter exactly how many journals are involved.I have seen scathing opinions in the AWSJ, Economists and Financial Times but haven't kept count.Three elite financial journals are good enough for me to conclude there is a general concern.Only the thick skinned might conclude that there wasn't a pressing image problem for Thailand to address.The Nation commentary you reference is fairly fatuous and slovenly written so one assumes it wasn't penned by the normally very articulate Old Carthusian editor.The main problem is that it comically assumes the perception problem is that of foreign investors not of the authorities in Thailand, specifically the former's "misunderstanding" of the self sufficiency economy's meaning.With all the will in the world very few serious economists have the slightest idea what it means other than a set of admirable injunctions.As the Economist points out anything critical of it could be seen as lese-majeste, punishable with jail, hardly the climate in which a sensible and constructive debate can be held.

The philosophy is not self sufficiency, but sufficiency economy, in other words not everyone has to grow their own food but they should live within their means with goals related to a happy life, in other words don't be slaves to consumerism, thinking money and consumer objects automatically makes you happy.

Common sense.

I wouldn't be worried about the 'elite' financial journals, they are rather thickskinned regarding Thailand, in the sense of dense, not comprehending the nuances of Thailand.

How dare the middle class support a coup? It's anti democracy!

How dare they impose capital restrictions and use of nominees?

How come the stock market is holding up and tourist spots are full?

What will they say if FDI doesn't drop?

You are really just making my point for me.The homespun advice you outline is very sensible, a set of admirable injunctions to use my earlier phrase.No sane person could possibly disagree with this advice.Having said that it is not an economic system in the sense that any academic scrutiny would confirm, and certainly not a blueprint for running a nation's policy.It is also a philosophy of life that is comically at odds with the lifestyle of the Bangkok elite, but we'll let that pass for the moment.

The second part of your post is more troubling because you are coming perilously close to the argument of the intellectually bankrupt, namely that outsiders can't have a sensible or informed view on Thailand.Unless you aspire for Thailand to join the ranks of N.Korea and Burma, it's probably better to attempt rational arguments and to express your views with clear reasoning.On your other points I certainly don't see any apopolyptic economic downturn but if Thailand turns in on itself there will certainly be a slow and sad slide downwards.But there will always be more than enough for the Bangkok power elite (as with the recent wedding in Rangoon sponsored by the Burma elite) to dig their snouts into.

[slimdog]

One thing I have totally failed to understand is why, when TRT are no longer in control and suposedly siphoning off 20-40% , when many of the mega-projects have either been cancelled or at least put on hold, does the government still propose a 140 billion deficit, which is almost the same as what Thaksin proposed ?

[Plus]

The second part of your post is more troubling because you are coming perilously close to the argument of the intellectually bankrupt, namely that outsiders can't have a sensible or informed view on Thailand.

She was talkging about specific publicatinos and The Economist and AWSJ never got it judging by their articles last year, before the coup.

[younghusband]

The second part of your post is more troubling because you are coming perilously close to the argument of the intellectually bankrupt, namely that outsiders can't have a sensible or informed view on Thailand.

She was talkging about specific publicatinos and The Economist and AWSJ never got it judging by their articles last year, before the coup.

Possibly but I only saw the reference to "elite journals".It doesn't really matter because an informed international perception,I agree not correct in every particular, is clearly shaping up to form a consensus on various Thailand political and economic issues.I am afraid it is highly critical and cannot be swept under the carpet with comments like "outsiders don't understand Thailand".The one international correspondent I know in Bangkok tells me that in any event many Thailand insiders are sources though in many cases they understandably don't want to be quoted directly.As it happens I recently re-read the pre-coup articles from the AWSJ and the Economist and found them to be perceptive and prescient so I suppose there is an element of subjectivity here.To be fair the Economist was taking a mildly combative position as a counterbalance to the refusal of many decent honourable anti - Thaksin people in Thailand (epitomised by the Nation editorial line)to acknowledge there was a terrible danger in taking a non democratic route to oust a flawed leader.My guess is that many (perhaps not on this forum where few admit errors of judgement, certainly not the anti-Thaksin Hezbollah) would ruefully accept that now.

As Viroj na Ranong, reported in The Nation today, points out "The Thai middle class has fallen into the fallacy trap of black and white thinking that if you are not with the coup group you are with Thaksin.He correctly noted education did not seem to guarantee better judgement."Who said people with higher education have a higher political morality"He went on to say, "the larger problem is the educated middle class refuses to question the elite's monopoly of Thai politics...which conspirs to manipulate politics with tanks and guns to determine who will be in charge".Ominously he suggests that the elite will eventually bring Thaksin back into the fold in time honoured Thai tradition, presumably after he has been defanged and no longer presents a threat.I fear he is almost certainly right.

[hammered]

The second part of your post is more troubling because you are coming perilously close to the argument of the intellectually bankrupt, namely that outsiders can't have a sensible or informed view on Thailand.

She was talkging about specific publicatinos and The Economist and AWSJ never got it judging by their articles last year, before the coup.

Possibly but I only saw the reference to "elite journals".It doesn't really matter because an informed international perception,I agree not correct in every particular, is clearly shaping up to form a consensus on various Thailand political and economic issues.I am afraid it is highly critical and cannot be swept under the carpet with comments like "outsiders don't understand Thailand".The one international correspondent I know in Bangkok tells me that in any event many Thailand insiders are sources though in many cases they understandably don't want to be quoted directly.As it happens I recently re-read the pre-coup articles from the AWSJ and the Economist and found them to be perceptive and prescient so I suppose there is an element of subjectivity here.To be fair the Economist was taking a mildly combative position as a counterbalance to the refusal of many decent honourable anti - Thaksin people in Thailand (epitomised by the Nation editorial line)to acknowledge there was a terrible danger in taking a non democratic route to oust a flawed leader.My guess is that many (perhaps not on this forum where few admit errors of judgement, certainly not the anti-Thaksin Hezbollah) would ruefully accept that now.

As Viroj na Ranong, reported in The Nation today, points out "The Thai middle class has fallen into the fallacy trap of black and white thinking that if you are not with the coup group you are with Thaksin.He correctly noted education did not seem to guarantee better judgement."Who said people with higher education have a higher political morality"He went on to say, "the larger problem is the educated middle class refuses to question the elite's monopoly of Thai politics...which conspirs to manipulate politics with tanks and guns to determine who will be in charge".Ominously he suggests that the elite will eventually bring Thaksin back into the fold in time honoured Thai tradition, presumably after he has been defanged and no longer presents a threat.I fear he is almost certainly right.

That was a good article imho.

Link: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/01/19...cs_30024500.php

The country does need to move beyond the fixation of pro and anti Thaksin. It also needs to not just get caught in the old third way which ends up consisting of failed leaders like Chavalit and Banharn and allowing rabid corruption to go on and on with the old arguement "they all do it". Yes the middle class do need to reflect on the past but not just becoome fixated with it. There are lesons to be learned for sure but there is also a need to move forward.

The elite will no doubt let Thaksin back at some point as they have almost never punished one of their own unless they have killed another member of the elite. That is another important point in the article that it mentions Thaksin was part of the elite thereby exposing the current power struggle as one up there.

[Jai Dee]

Ousted PM arrives in Tokyo but no plan to meet officials

Thaksin arrived in Tokyo. Thai embassy said he has no plan to meet Japanese official while Tokyo University denied it would give him an honorary degree.

Ousted prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra, was in Tokyo on Friday, but Japanese officials said they had no plans to meet him out of concerns over relations with the current Bangkok government, according to Associated Press.

Thaksin arrived in Tokyo late Thursday on his first visit to Japan since being toppled from office in a Sept. 19 bloodless military coup.

"Now is time for me to relax, get together with my family, see my old friends,'' Thaksin said Thursday after arriving at Narita international airport outside Tokyo.

Meanwhile Japanese officials said they were aware of Thaksin's visit but had no plans to meet the former leader.

"There are no meetings scheduled between Mr. Thaksin and Japanese government officials,'' said Foreign Ministry official Masahiro Yoshida.

"We have our relations with the current Thai government to consider. ... We are aware that the government is very sensitive about this issue,'' he said.

AP quoted Chika Takada, an official at the Thai embassy in Tokyo, as saying Bangkok was aware of Thaksin's visit but had not plans to interfere. "His visit is purely private and does not concern us,'' Takada said.

Thai media reported Friday that the former leader was scheduled to give a speech at the prestigious Tokyo University and receive an honorary degree there.

University spokeswoman Kayoko Hayashi, however, said none of the school's main departments had plans to receive Thaksin. She said the university was checking with its professors about the reported visit.

The former leader's private visit to Singapore earlier this week sparked a diplomatic row between Thailand and Singapore.

Thailand's Foreign Ministry on Tuesday withdrew an invitation to Singapore's Foreign Minister George Yeo to visit the country and suspended an exchange program of civil servants following Thaksin's meeting with a top Singaporean official.

Thaksin planned to stay in Japan for about a week, according to public broadcaster NHK.

Source: The Nation - 19 January 2007

[ColPyat]

That was a good article imho.

Link: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/01/19...cs_30024500.php

That was a great article, an excellent analyses of the present situation.

By the way, the article mentioned one theses: Yos Santasombat “Power and Personality: An Anthropological Study of the Thai Political Elite.”

Does anybody here know where i could download that theses? I would be very interested to read that.

[Jai Dee]

UBC to block Thaksin interview

Thailand's main cable provider said Friday it would block an upcoming interview with deposed premier Thaksin Shinawatra, hours after media rights groups criticised the junta for censorship.

Thaksin broke his media silence and spoke about his ouster on CNN Monday night, but most Thais were unable to watch excerpts of the interview as local cable provider UBC switched to images of celebrities.

CNN will broadcast the full interview on Saturday, but UBC spokeswoman Kantima Kunjara told AFP that they will not air it because of a request by the Council for National Security, as the junta calls itself.

"Since the CNS has asked for cooperation from broadcasting media not to broadcast statements from former prime minister Thaksin, UBC will cooperate and will not broadcast his interview," Kantima said.

Her comments came after media watchdogs expressed concern that coverage of Thaksin was blocked on Monday night.

"In our view this measure is regrettable and contrary to your country's interests," said media watchdog Reporters Without Borders.

"Censoring or blocking news or information carried by any media does not prevent the information's existence, and those who want to have access to it usually succeed," it said in a letter to the country's military rulers.

Thaksin was ousted in September while he was out of the country. A variety of censorship orders were later issued, including a threat earlier this month to shut down broadcasters who carried statements by Thaksin.

"Last Monday we received good cooperation from the media," a junta spokesman said.

But the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand (FCCT) said it would write to new Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont to express its "deep disappointment" that the interview was not broadcast.

The letter to Surayud on behalf of the FCCT's professional membership said the attempt at censorship "casts the Thai authorities in a poor light" and was "pointless" as the interview was reported in print media and on the Internet.

Source: The Nation - 19 January 2007

[Mid]

not bad for a guy done with politics ..............................................

[Losangels]

Since his diplomatic passport was revoked, how did he manage to get a visa to enter Japan so easily?

[A_Traveller]

Since his diplomatic passport was revoked, how did he manage to get a visa to enter Japan so easily?

I can think of at least 1 billion reasons.

Regards

[Plus]

Full quote: "Who said people with higher education have a higher political morality. It's the same false logic that contends rich politicians aren't corrupt."

He equates two different scenarios - consciously making morally wrong choices (elite voting for Thaksin) and being simply ignorant. Apples and oranges.

In effect he denies the role of education.

[Ned]

So now at last we're getting down to the crux of the matter.....the Thai elite. They'll fight and argue amongst themselves but when all is said and done they'll close ranks to preserve the status quo. Ah, the so called '26 Clans' who own more than half of the country's wealth, at least according to Khun Sumet of the Chaipattana Foundation reported in The Nation some time back.

I too would be interested to read Yos Santasombat's article (is it a thesis or a published book?...in English or Thai I wonder) so if anyone out there knows anything about it then that'd be appreciated.

[pete_r]

So now at last we're getting down to the crux of the matter.....the Thai elite. They'll fight and argue amongst themselves but when all is said and done they'll close ranks to preserve the status quo. Ah, the so called '26 Clans' who own more than half of the country's wealth, at least according to Khun Sumet of the Chaipattana Foundation reported in The Nation some time back.

I too would be interested to read Yos Santasombat's article (is it a thesis or a published book?...in English or Thai I wonder) so if anyone out there knows anything about it then that'd be appreciated.

It's a PhD thesis from 1985. Probably difficult to get hold of but if anyone has it, I would be interested too.

Yos Santasombat 1985. “Power and Personality: An Anthropological Study of the Thai Political Elite.” Ph. D. dissertation, University of California, Berkeley. 285 pp.

(reference from this page: http://www.leeds.ac.uk/thaipol/xyandz.htm)

[Ned]

Thanks for that pete r.

[younghusband]

Full quote: "Who said people with higher education have a higher political morality. It's the same false logic that contends rich politicians aren't corrupt."

He equates two different scenarios - consciously making morally wrong choices (elite voting for Thaksin) and being simply ignorant. Apples and oranges.

In effect he denies the role of education.

Oh dear doesn't life get difficult when you have to think rather than repeating mantras.With respect you seem a little rattled which has made your use of language somewhat clumsy.If as it seems English is not your first language I apologise sincerely for I do not intend to be patronising.

Khun Viroj was referring to the lack of judgement in the elite's support for CNS as well as its earlier support for Thaksin.(Actually in my view the latter was always rather limited since apart from its enthusiastic support for the drug war murders and repression in the South, the Bangkok elite was always rather sceptical of the nouveaux riche spiv from Chiengmai).I am not entirely clear about the point you are making because there is no equation by Khun Viroj of "two scenarios", and I am afraid I have no idea what you mean when you say, "he denies the role of education".Nevertheless what I surmise is that you are making (once again) the argument that the rural majority is uneducated,corruptible and ignorant and thus not to be trusted in having a major say on the nation's destiny.It's a point of view though perhaps you might consider when accusing others of having a 19th century political philosophy that your own take is straight out of the 1830's before electoral reform took hold.The difference between your archaic philosophy and the liberal philosophy you dislike so much is that yours was consigned to the winds of history along with witch burning and the divine right of kings while liberal democratic values triumphed throughout the civilized world.

[John K]

As I continue to read the news about Thaksin doing this that and whatever, to me it is getting increasing obvious that #1 he is deliberately trying to stir the pot. #2 look less and less like he plans to stay a private person. #3 put a good face on. Hiring lobbyists in Washington??? I sincerely hope that the USA will only grant him a visa from his own country. Seeing is he cant come back that should slow him down some.

[Siripon]

Full quote: "Who said people with higher education have a higher political morality. It's the same false logic that contends rich politicians aren't corrupt."

He equates two different scenarios - consciously making morally wrong choices (elite voting for Thaksin) and being simply ignorant. Apples and oranges.

In effect he denies the role of education.

Oh dear doesn't life get difficult when you have to think rather than repeating mantras.With respect you seem a little rattled which has made your use of language somewhat clumsy.If as it seems English is not your first language I apologise sincerely for I do not intend to be patronising.

Khun Viroj was referring to the lack of judgement in the elite's support for CNS as well as its earlier support for Thaksin.(Actually in my view the latter was always rather limited since apart from its enthusiastic support for the drug war murders and repression in the South, the Bangkok elite was always rather sceptical of the nouveaux riche spiv from Chiengmai).I am not entirely clear about the point you are making because there is no equation by Khun Viroj of "two scenarios", and I am afraid I have no idea what you mean when you say, "he denies the role of education".Nevertheless what I surmise is that you are making (once again) the argument that the rural majority is uneducated,corruptible and ignorant and thus not to be trusted in having a major say on the nation's destiny.It's a point of view though perhaps you might consider when accusing others of having a 19th century political philosophy that your own take is straight out of the 1830's before electoral reform took hold.The difference between your archaic philosophy and the liberal philosophy you dislike so much is that yours was consigned to the winds of history along with witch burning and the divine right of kings while liberal democratic values triumphed throughout the civilized world.

To call the western world civilised is open to debate: 2 world wars, genocide and now a level of happiness and satisfaction so low millions leave when they have the chance.One sees them in Thailand every day.

The cult of celebrity is supreme in The West, tuned into 'reality shows',Beckham is God, n'est pas?

Don't forget democracy in The West took hundreds of years, the electoral reforms you talk of in the 1830s in Britain were not realised until Emily Pankhurst threw herself under a horse nearly 100 years later, the masses weren't franchised overnight, so how can anyone expect what was a rural, feudal society only 30 years ago in Thailand to suddenly become an 'enlightened, educated populace?

As the ex PM of Singapore, Mr Lee, asked rhetorically to a Thai journalist," Democracy depends on having an informed, educated electorate able to make intelligent choices, do you have that in Thailand?'

And the answer is no because the education system is weak, relying on multiple choice answers, the TV programmes are light entertainment because that's what the people like.

I suggest you ask 10 M6 students at random in Bangkok tomorrow who is the Finance Minister,9 out of 10 will not know.

Although the colonel and myself often engage in minor skirmishes I think, both he and I, as most posters here, feel that education is the key, but the reality is that will take generations, at least 20 to 30 years.

The academics are right to blame the middle class for apathy, I've been disappointed myself by the attitudes of Thammasart students over the last 20 years, namely an indifference to politics, only interested in making money.

It took the absolute naked greed of Thaksin to wake them and the middle class up.

But the elite had to intervene to overthrow a despot and dictator, Thaksin was never interested in educating the rural masses, The Education Ministry was the last of his priorities.

But civil society is aware,the PAD and its associates are not going away, I read today Suriyasai, one of the leaders of the PAD from Sisaket, is speaking upcountry tomorrow, in spite of threats from the previous TRT MP, he even needs an army escort.

As he did in Udon Thani when the TRT MPs with a hired mob threatened his life.

This is the legacy Thaksin leaves, inadvertently a debate of the make-up and roles of the changing segments of Thai society; hopefully under the junta it can be resolved in a peaceful way, something certainly impossible under Thaksin with his antagonistic and belligerent personality.

[Plus]

I think it was you who is repeating mantras. I simply said what I thought was wrong with Viroj's quote, in two sentences, based on his own reasoning.

He obviously tried to say that middle classes shouldn't feel so superior as they also made some wrong choices. Fair enough, but why bring higher education into this? Also he talks about political morality, which is not the same as political awareness or maturity.

That's what I said first - consciously making (morally) wrong choices is not the same as making ignorant ones.

And when he compared it to "rich people are not corrupt" it went totally wrong. Does he mean that "higher education" does not guarantee better voting?

That was my second sentence - in effect he denies the role of education.

Logically, education comes first - without education people are simply not aware of what the choices and their implications are. Only then you can classify them into morally right or morally wrong.

I hope you can follow this, Younghusband.

As for mantras, I didn't say a word about underlying philosophy - educated elite vs unwashed masses etc. etc. Viroj just wanted to attack middle classes for supporting CNS and was looking for reasons. He reached the conclusion before applying logic.

It's pointless to argue with that, people with pre-concieved notions are extremely stubborn. I only point(ed) out the obvious logical flaw. Not that it could change their conclusion but other readers might take a note.

[blaze]

I think it was you who is repeating mantras. I simply said what I thought was wrong with Viroj's quote, in two sentences, based on his own reasoning.

He obviously tried to say that middle classes shouldn't feel so superior as they also made some wrong choices. Fair enough, but why bring higher education into this? Also he talks about political morality, which is not the same as political awareness or maturity.

That's what I said first - consciously making (morally) wrong choices is not the same as making ignorant ones.

And when he compared it to "rich people are not corrupt" it went totally wrong. Does he mean that "higher education" does not guarantee better voting?

That was my second sentence - in effect he denies the role of education.

Logically, education comes first - without education people are simply not aware of what the choices and their implications are. Only then you can classify them into morally right or morally wrong.

I hope you can follow this, Younghusband.

As for mantras, I didn't say a word about underlying philosophy - educated elite vs unwashed masses etc. etc. Viroj just wanted to attack middle classes for supporting CNS and was looking for reasons. He reached the conclusion before applying logic.

It's pointless to argue with that, people with pre-concieved notions are extremely stubborn. I only point(ed) out the obvious logical flaw. Not that it could change their conclusion but other readers might take a note.

Plus, I'm having a bit of a hard time following what you are saying. I understood that Viroj was saying that the poor vote exactly the way one expects everyone to vote: for the party that they believe will best meet their needs. But, the middle class, supposedly more educated, in its disavowal of democracy in favour of dictatorship- made, within the context of democracy, the only immoral choice possible. I repeat, WITHIN the CONTEXT of democracy. That is perfectly logical. Isn't it?

The immorality stems from 'breech of trust'. Democracy is based on a social contract wherein the minority agrees to abide by the will of the majority. (within the constaints of constitutional law and contstitutions do not normally offer the option of coups). Educated people, I think he was suggesting, should understand that very basic concept. And if they don't, then they are more of a threat to democracy than the so called, "uneducated'.

Edited January 19, 2007 by blaze

[ColPyat]

To call the western world civilised is open to debate: 2 world wars, genocide and now a level of happiness and satisfaction so low millions leave when they have the chance.One sees them in Thailand every day.

You have a point that the west has not exactly a history of entirely benevolent altruism. We try our best though. Lets call it a mixture of very humanistic ideas, that unfortunately get corrupted into the opposite in regular intervals.

But please do not confuse some of the less savoury examples of western tourists here in Thailand as examplary for the west. Most people in the west are just like everybody else, they try to have a good job and raise their family, and once a while go on a holiday, but are perfectly happy in the homes, and would not consider to migrate to Thailand.

The cult of celebrity is supreme in The West, tuned into 'reality shows',Beckham is God, n'est pas?

Don't forget democracy in The West took hundreds of years, the electoral reforms you talk of in the 1830s in Britain were not realised until Emily Pankhurst threw herself under a horse nearly 100 years later, the masses weren't franchised overnight, so how can anyone expect what was a rural, feudal society only 30 years ago in Thailand to suddenly become an 'enlightened, educated populace?

As the ex PM of Singapore, Mr Lee, asked rhetorically to a Thai journalist," Democracy depends on having an informed, educated electorate able to make intelligent choices, do you have that in Thailand?'

And the answer is no because the education system is weak, relying on multiple choice answers, the TV programmes are light entertainment because that's what the people like.

I suggest you ask 10 M6 students at random in Bangkok tomorrow who is the Finance Minister,9 out of 10 will not know.

Although the colonel and myself often engage in minor skirmishes I think, both he and I, as most posters here, feel that education is the key, but the reality is that will take generations, at least 20 to 30 years.

Yes, education is one of the main keys. But there are others, which i have outlined in the thread about the farmers in Lumphini, especially why education alone will not do.

The academics are right to blame the middle class for apathy, I've been disappointed myself by the attitudes of Thammasart students over the last 20 years, namely an indifference to politics, only interested in making money.

It took the absolute naked greed of Thaksin to wake them and the middle class up.

But the elite had to intervene to overthrow a despot and dictator, Thaksin was never interested in educating the rural masses, The Education Ministry was the last of his priorities.

True, i do not believe for one second that Thaksin had much interest in real reform. Nevertheless, byproduct of his populism was that he had to deliver some to the rural and urban poor, in order to keep his position of power. The sad part is, that he has in fact delivered more than the definately more benevolent Chuan government, not to speak of Chavalit and Banharn. We could have saved ourselves the Thaksin aera if previous governments would have introduced reforms.

Many people i know who voted for Thaksin did not because they believed he is a clean and great saviour (apart from a few die hards), they were/are aware of the corruption issues. But their reasoning was that at least this time they get some development as well.

Unfortunately they do have a point there. It is rather easy to sit where we are, educated (sort of ), enough money and skills to make money, to advovate sittakit por pueang. Today one taxi driver said to me: "Sittakit por Pueang - thae pueang mai poh".

Yes, it is all nice to advocate sufficiency economy when one does not have to do the backbreaking labour for a pittance. The sad part is, that the ones who gladly would do that, they millions of landless people and tiny land holders do not get their hands on the land actually reserved for them. Where we have our Sor Por Kor 401 land, most holders of that land are ex army and retired civil servants, and many rich farmers.

The farmers who do alright, will not switch to the very labour intensive Sittakit Por Pueang, their children go to school and don't want to turn into peasant. They want nice jobs in the city.

Basically - Sittakit Por Pueang is a theory that could help a certain sector of society here, which does not get even the basics to start off with, unless a farang such as me marries into the family and can take over the initial investment that the government does not.

Unless issues such as landreform etc. are adressed, nothing will work. But that means talking about the tabu topic - to take land away from the elite including the aristocracy.

No education reform will ever work if it does not go hand in hand with all the other overdue reforms.

Concentrating on Thaksin, and not working on these reforms will change nothing. As it stands now, Sittakit Por Pueang is a fuzzy thing with lots of good intentions, where even the basics of scientific research and independent peer review have not been performed. And in the present political climate is not possible.

As it is open to wide interpretition, for lack of clear definitions and direction, you can already see that it will just be used as another tool to justify the status quo.

But civil society is aware,the PAD and its associates are not going away, I read today Suriyasai, one of the leaders of the PAD from Sisaket, is speaking upcountry tomorrow, in spite of threats from the previous TRT MP, he even needs an army escort.

As he did in Udon Thani when the TRT MPs with a hired mob threatened his life.

This is the legacy Thaksin leaves, inadvertently a debate of the make-up and roles of the changing segments of Thai society; hopefully under the junta it can be resolved in a peaceful way, something certainly impossible under Thaksin with his antagonistic and belligerent personality.

Political violence is not a legacy of Thaksin here. That happened before Thaksin, and most likely will continue to happen to whomever adresses issues, or who pisses off a local godfather, regardless who this person is momentarily allied with. These godfathers will not go away with Thaksin, and they have always independently existed.

The problem with the PAD is that there were definately some real democracy activists involved. Real power though held Sondhi. And he has as little interest in reform as Thaksin. His biography is very similar to Thaksin's, his aims are the same, and for many years they were allied for mutualy beneficial interests, until long after Thaksin's most memorable human rights violations. People upcountry are not that stupid - they do see that.

Another well known democracy activist - Mor Weng - who was briefly allied with the PAD, has distanced himself completely, and is now found with the sept. 19th network, such as Prateep Ungsongtham Hata is.

Given the conflicts of interest within the PAD, especially personified by Sondhi L., i would look for real democratic reform now within the sept. 19th network. Even though it still is small, it does have a clean record, unlike the PAD which has allied itself with some very dubious characters.

Edited January 19, 2007 by ColPyat

[asd]

http://www.nhk.or.jp/news/2007/01/19/d20070119000040.html

TOKYO: Thailand's ousted prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra, was in Tokyo on Friday, but Japanese officials said they had no plans to meet him out of concerns over relations with the current caretaker government in Bangkok.

Thaksin arrived in Tokyo late Thursday on his first visit to Japan since being toppled from office in a Sept. 19 bloodless military coup."Now is time for me to relax, get together with my family, see my old friends," Thaksin said Thursday after arriving at Narita international airport outside Tokyo.

Japanese officials said they were aware of Thaksin's visit but had no plans to meet the former leader.

"There are no meetings scheduled between Mr. Thaksin and Japanese government officials," said Foreign Ministry official Masahiro Yoshida.

"We have our relations with the current Thai government to consider. ... We are aware that the government is very sensitive about this issue," he said.

The Thai Foreign Ministry was in "regular contact" with Japanese authorities both in Bangkok and in Tokyo, said spokesman Kitti Wasinondh.

He declined to discuss details of the conversations, saying only that Thailand wanted to make sure the two countries had "the same understanding of the situation."

"We have a strong confidence and trust in Japanese cooperation," Kitti said, contacted in Bangkok. "We don't expect any problems."

The former leader's private visit to Singapore earlier this week sparked a diplomatic row between Thailand and Singapore.

Thailand's Foreign Ministry on Tuesday withdrew an invitation to Singapore's Foreign Minister George Yeo to visit the country and suspended an exchange program of civil servants following Thaksin's meeting with a top Singaporean official.

Thaksin, who has been touring Europe and Asia since his ouster, planned to stay in Japan for about a week, according to public broadcaster NHK.

The former leader is being investigated for corruption and abuse of power during his 5 1/2 years in office.

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USA >>> England >>> China >>> Hongkong >>> Indonasia >>> Singapore >>> Japan >>> ???

[ColPyat]

Plus, I'm having a bit of a hard time following what you are saying. (Good to know that i am not the only one here ) I understood that Viroj was saying that the poor vote exactly the way one expects everyone to vote: for the party that they believe will best meet their needs. But, the middle class, supposedly more educated, in its disavowal of democracy in favour of dictatorship- made, within the context of democracy, the only immoral choice possible. I repeat, WITHIN the CONTEXT of democracy. That is perfectly logical. Isn't it?

The immorality stems from 'breech of trust'. Democracy is based on a social contract wherein the minority agrees to abide by the will of the majority. (within the constaints of constitutional law and contstitutions do not normally offer the option of coups). Educated people, I think he was suggesting, should understand that very basic concept. And if they don't, then they are more of a threat to democracy than the so called, "uneducated'.

That basically brought it to the point!

Nops, there is no "Thai style democracy" when performing a coup - it is the most undemocratic action imaginable, and this coup, a surprise for many, has set a precedent that will haunt Thailand for a long time. And not just Thailand, the entire region. Because there are many countries here that have infancy problems with their own growing democracies, and after having seen how well that ran in Thailand supposedly, might turn to the same measure.

[sriracha john]

Thaksin arrived in Tokyo late Thursday on his first visit to Japan since being toppled from office in a Sept. 19 bloodless military coup."Now is time for me to relax, get together with my family, see my old friends," Thaksin said Thursday after arriving at Narita international airport outside Tokyo.

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USA >>> England >>> China >>> Hongkong >>> Indonasia >>> Singapore >>> Japan >>> ???

>>>>Botswana???

In light of Thakky's statements, does that mean no speech... and no honorary degree??

Accompanied by close aide Pansak Vinyaratn, the deposed prime minister is due to stay in Japan until tomorrow, during which time he will deliver a speech after receiving an honorary degree in political science from Tokyo University.

- BP

and no TBS/NHK television interview?? :D

Japanese television stations, including TBS and NHK, will also interview him.

- The Nation

awwwww.... how heart-breakingly disappointing...

[Tony Clifton]

http://www.nhk.or.jp/news/2007/01/19/d20070119000040.html

TOKYO: Thailand's ousted prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra, was in Tokyo on Friday, but Japanese officials said they had no plans to meet him out of concerns over relations with the current caretaker government in Bangkok.

Thaksin arrived in Tokyo late Thursday on his first visit to Japan since being toppled from office in a Sept. 19 bloodless military coup."Now is time for me to relax, get together with my family, see my old friends," Thaksin said Thursday after arriving at Narita international airport outside Tokyo.

Japanese officials said they were aware of Thaksin's visit but had no plans to meet the former leader.

"There are no meetings scheduled between Mr. Thaksin and Japanese government officials," said Foreign Ministry official Masahiro Yoshida.

"We have our relations with the current Thai government to consider. ... We are aware that the government is very sensitive about this issue," he said.

The Thai Foreign Ministry was in "regular contact" with Japanese authorities both in Bangkok and in Tokyo, said spokesman Kitti Wasinondh.

He declined to discuss details of the conversations, saying only that Thailand wanted to make sure the two countries had "the same understanding of the situation."

"We have a strong confidence and trust in Japanese cooperation," Kitti said, contacted in Bangkok. "We don't expect any problems."

The former leader's private visit to Singapore earlier this week sparked a diplomatic row between Thailand and Singapore.

Thailand's Foreign Ministry on Tuesday withdrew an invitation to Singapore's Foreign Minister George Yeo to visit the country and suspended an exchange program of civil servants following Thaksin's meeting with a top Singaporean official.

Thaksin, who has been touring Europe and Asia since his ouster, planned to stay in Japan for about a week, according to public broadcaster NHK.

The former leader is being investigated for corruption and abuse of power during his 5 1/2 years in office.

---------------------------------------------------

USA >>> England >>> China >>> Hongkong >>> Indonasia >>> Singapore >>> Japan >>> ???

"Now is time for me to relax, get together with my family, see my old friends," Thaksin said in Japan

:D :D pleaaaase stoooop!

"We' re going shopping in Singapore as a family" (Shin sold days after)

"My children made the decision because they want their father to focus on politics and to avoid public criticism about conflicts of interest,"

"Thailand is free of bird-flu"

“necessary for Myanmar’s government to have political stability, because there are more than 100 minority groups who want to be independent.”

Thaksin lied to a civil court by calling Monson an employee and alleging that Monson's company had stolen some equipment from their business deal.

Bangkok 2004 AIDS Conference Reports : Thaksin LIED with his accounting of people receiving healthcare: only 30000 Thais are presently being treated, and there are 200000 Thais presently in need

"It was an honest mistake" 2001

"When he ran for office in 2001, he divested most of his holdings to other family members and close associates. The manner of his divestiture led to charges that he had lied on his financial-disclosure forms"

a claim by the Revenue Department that they lied about a deal they made with Ample Rich Investments Ltd

Thaksin said yesterday that he had been the target of failed assassination plots on at least two occasions in the past two weeks. He claimed one happened when he was getting off his official plane at the Don Muang airforce base, but he did not elaborate.

The premier has made similar claims over the past six years, although none have been proven.

his government has been frequently challenged with allegations of corruption, dictatorship, demagogy, treason, conflicts of interest, human rights offences, acting undiplomatically, the use of legal loopholes and hostility towards a free press. A controversial leader, he has also been the target of allegations of lèse-majesté, selling assets to international investors, religious desecration, and siding with the forces of darkness

Thaksin “quits” politics

Outgoing Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said Saturday he has retired

Thaksin may return to politics, former PM's lawyer says

Thaksin was just as ambiguous prior to leaving as on his return, refusing to go into detail about his visit or explain the hurried manner in which trip was put together.

"We covered everything from social issues, economic and politics and bilateral and multilateral issues. I can't go into details," Thaksin told scores of reporters about his rare meeting with Burma's paramount and reclusive leader, Senior General Than

London weather is too cold and leaves for China

"Thaksin is in Beijing to meet with friends."

Will you go back to, back to politics?

Shinawatra: No. No. (DR: Go back as a private ... ) Enough is enough. Six years you serve the countries. You been working hard. You sacrifice your time even your life. And, even your family life. So it's, it's time for me to go back as a private citizen. And contribute to the Thai society outside political arena.

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I'd be "lying" if I said I don't see a pattern here.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[sriracha john]

Musn't forget this little nugget of psychotic symptomology:

Thaksin declares the country 'drug free area'

Published on Apr 13, 2003

"The government is pleased to announce that the country is now a drug-free area and will proclaim victory in its war on drugs," said Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

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well-stated, Thakky... sorry your bubble-world ended up popped

There are some more gems besides the above on this by-no-means-a-complete-compilation-list website:

Stupid Thaksin Quotes

Edited January 19, 2007 by sriracha john

[Tony Clifton]

He once said " “They deserve the most severe penalty because they have done huge damage to the country.”

som nam na

Edited January 19, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[John K]

Thaksin arrived in Tokyo late Thursday on his first visit to Japan since being toppled from office in a Sept. 19 bloodless military coup."Now is time for me to relax, get together with my family, see my old friends," Thaksin said Thursday after arriving at Narita international airport outside Tokyo.

Well let me see, would the old friends you talk about happen to have a Japanese name or Thai name? And if they just happen to have a Thai name, would they have been ranking TRT members and just happen to be in Japan at the same time as you......?

[Plus]

Plus, I'm having a bit of a hard time following what you are saying. I understood that Viroj was saying that the poor vote exactly the way one expects everyone to vote: for the party that they believe will best meet their needs.

NO, that's what you THINK he said, read the quote again:

"Who said people with higher education have a higher political morality. It's the same false logic that contends rich politicians aren't corrupt."

This sentence is itself an example of false logic.

>>>>>>

Regarding visit to Singapore - Thai FM said that he warned his Singaporean counterpart against reception of Thaksin by their Deputy PM three times, in line with the earlier pledge by Singaporean President.

Diplomatic retaliation had to follow, it was impossible for Thais not to react.