child abduction

[sniper]

I am in a possible situation where I could have to try to depart Thailand with my child aged 3 without his mothers consent, the child was born in EU and we live there but the mother brought him back to Thailand for a visit but has decided to keep him in Thailand without my consent. I was wondering if I was to go to Thailand and take the child to my embassy will they issue a new passport for him if I say that we are just on holiday and his passport has been lost, but I also say that his mother is uncontactable. I have his birthcert from my country and copies of his passport. I don't want to try the legal route of the Hague convention yet because it is time consuming and Thailand doesent fully comply with it so the legal option might not succeed, has anybody had success with the Hague convention in Thailand? I was hoping to try my own tactics first because it may be a quicker option. does anybody have any advice or have experience in these matters, I have tried to mediate and offer money to the kids mother to no avail.

please suggest any other possible options, I have thought of using my nephews passport but it would have no entry stamp into Thailand.

thanks for any sugestions 

[Sumarianson]

If the time is less than a year then you can apply to get the child back legally. Talk to a Lawyer.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Norrad]

Even if you have your child's EU passport it's difficult to board a flight without the mother's permission. You may face questions from the airline and then again from immigration who often want to speak to the mother personally, as they did in my case. If you do manage to get a new passport for your child then you could try crossing the border overland. Immigration never questioned me at land borders when I took my son on visa runs with me.

[Been there done that]

You did not write about her/her families financial wealth. You really need to know/understand why she wants to keep the child there and does not want a financial settlement.

 

The fact that you want your child to grow up in your country and care for him, should be enough for the mother to let him stay with you.

 

Try to locate the pu yai baan and let him do the talking with the mother. Give him an incentive to come up for you. Money ofcourse.

 

You need to act quickly and regain total control of the child. Be decisive and act with accepting all consequenses.

 

Embassies need, based on my limited knowledge, the father and mother to make a passport.

 

Which country are you from ?

Edited December 12, 2017 by Been there done that

[sniper]

If I was to try a land border, I wouldn't have any entry stamp in his passport, would that be a problem? I don't have the passport but it may be possible to get hold of it, if not and I turn up at my embassy looking for a new passport for the child, who is an Irish citizen and was born in Ireland, would they issue one to me without his mothers consent if his mother was  uncontactable, surely they have a duty to help the child return to his country of residence with me, as the child has only been in Thailand for a 6 week stay so far. If any tourist turned up in my situation who was traveling alone with a child they can hardly deny the child a new passport and say the child must stay in Thailand because the other parent is out of contact, if that succeeds then would immigration put an entry stamp in the new passport or is that necessary? I am looking at this option because I think it may be a quicker route than a legal remedy

[MaeJoMTB]

Flight is easier.

Just pay a bar girl to be mum on the end of a phone.

Edited December 12, 2017 by MaeJoMTB

[richard_smith237]

Telleke and Gibbins is one of the oldest, most reliable and respected law firms which would handle such cases. 

 

One of the major issues with taking your child back to Ireland would be the Parental Kidnapping issue. While Thailand is not a compliant member of the Hague Convention it is a signatory and as such the Hague Convention 'could' be used in this case. 

 

Additionally so, removing the Child from his mother may negatively impact any future legal proceedings.

 

 

It would appear that the Mother has already 'kidnapped' the child from Ireland by not returning her, thus I suspect the long winded legal option would see you in favorable light. 

 

Most importantly think 'Big Picture'... 'Long Game'...  the clever option is to go with the Lawyers. 

 

---------

 

With regards to leaving Thailand with a Minor. I have done so in the past but my Wife remained at the airport just incase there were any issues... no one batted an eyelid when exiting immigration with a 3 year old (British Father / Son with a Thai Passport (upon exiting Thailand)). 

 

We will do the same again soon and once again my Wife will take us to the Airport just in case there are questions - I'm not expecting any but will be prepared just in case. 

 

One friend of mine was questioned at the airport when traveling without his Wife - a simple phone call to his Wife (kids parents) resolved this issue to Immigrations satisfaction. 

 

 

[sniper]

I believe from these replies that exiting Thailand might be possible, but if the passport has no entry stamp can an entry stamp be got at immigration if a new passport is issued? Or is an entry stamp needed? Acquiring a new passport on my own may or may not be possible, but on what grounds would the embassy refuse a replacement passport for a child in order for that child to get home if one parent not contactable? 

[sanemax]

If your Child entered on an Irish PP ,(s)he would have an entry stamp , you could them take him abroad again without the Mothers consent .

   Mothers consent is only needed when the Child is departing Thailand for the first time, with no record of entry in his PP

[sniper]

The problem is that he has a Thai passport also so the Irish passport would probably not have any entry stamp in it even if i do manage to get it back in my possession, that's why I may have to try to get a replacement passport alone if that is possible. Either way there would be no entry stamp, if someone gets a replacement passport how do they exit the country without an entry stamp? 

[Rhys]

Long game, see the lawyers...take care of the issues and hassle now...as opposed to dealing with the problems you will face pre during and post airport egress.

[blackcab]

Step 1: Report passport lost to Thai police and obtain a written report.

 

Step 2: Report the loss to the Irish Embassy. They will issue an Emergency Travel Document.

 

Step 3: Attend immigration with evidence of the entry to Thailand. They will stamp the Emergency Travel Document with everything necessary to exit Thailand.

[Been there done that]

7 hours ago, blackcab said:

Step 1: Report passport lost to Thai police and obtain a written report.

 

Step 2: Report the loss to the Irish Embassy. They will issue an Emergency Travel Document.

 

Step 3: Attend immigration with evidence of the entry to Thailand. They will stamp the Emergency Travel Document with everything necessary to exit Thailand.

A simple mind could have the easy solution 

[sniper]

What are the odds of winning a custody fight in a Thai court room? Would the Thai court not just rule in favour of the mother because she is Thai?

[happylarry]

3 hours ago, sniper said:

What are the odds of winning a custody fight in a Thai court room? Would the Thai court not just rule in favour of the mother because she is Thai?

You believe what you want to believe but the Judges are not so small minded and they consider and rule on what is best for the child.

HL

[offset]

1 hour ago, happylarry said:

You believe what you want to believe but the Judges are not so small minded and they consider and rule on what is best for the child.

HL

They also take the advise from the Children's welfare who would interview both parents and sometimes the child as well

[Been there done that]

3 hours ago, offset said:

They also take the advise from the Children's welfare who would interview both parents and sometimes the child as well

From topucs earlier in the year on this forum, Childwelfare in LOS is a joke. Dont count on them.

[offset]

8 hours ago, Been there done that said:

From topucs earlier in the year on this forum, Childwelfare in LOS is a joke. Dont count on them.

You should only listen to people that have been there 

 

I found them very efficient, they seem to have the Childs welfare at heart and did not favour the mother by trying to ask me some difficult questions

 

They seemed to want to know who had the best means to look after my child and what money I had to look after my child

 

The Judge must of taken note of the Welfares report because he did not ask me any questions and just sighed over my child to me

 

This  was the second time that I have dealt with the welfare and never had any problems with them

Edited December 14, 2017 by offset

[Been there done that]

55 minutes ago, offset said:

You should only listen to people that have been there 

 

I found them very efficient, they seem to have the Childs welfare at heart and did not favour the mother by trying to ask me some difficult questions

 

They seemed to want to know who had the best means to look after my child and what money I had to look after my child

 

The Judge must of taken note of the Welfares report because he did not ask me any questions and just sighed over my child to me

 

This  was the second time that I have dealt with the welfare and never had any problems with them

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

Good on you though that your case was handled in your favour.

[offset]

19 minutes ago, Been there done that said:

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

Good on you though that your case was handled in your favour.

I would of had no complaints about the system if it was not concluded in my favour they were only acting on behalf of my child and not on the behalf of the parents

 

[sniper]

Does anyone know how much the legal fees would cost for lawyers on a case like this?

[Awk]

Unless the mother willingly agrees to sign over full custody to you, I believe you have no chance with even the best lawyer. Without full custody you cannot relocate the child outside of Thailand against the mother's wish, and it is normally not reasonable or fair for the court to grant you full custody against the mother's wishes so you can putter off to farangland, where the mother may never see her child again. Unless there's something special about mother (drug addict, violent, child abuser, etc.) I think starting a process with a thai lawyer at this point is a waste of money and time.

Thailand is a signature to the Hague convention of 1981 regarding child abduction and this is the only judicial avenue I think can help, but as you say, this may take some time (several months at a minimum probably) and the end result is uncertain. Thailand should return the child to the country it was domiciled, but if the mother refuses to co-operate, how much manpower will the Thai authorities use to track the child down and return it by force from it's Thai mother? Regardless of that, if perusing this avenue one must obviously start the process as soon as possible, and this you must do in your home country where the child was domiciled. The longer the child stays away from it's domiciled home, the more the odds will be in favour for letting the child stay where it is now.

A bad situation, but unless the mother cooperates I think your only option for returning the the situation to normal in a reasonable amount of time is to return home with the child alone, assuming you can get through passport control.

That you do not have the passport the child entered Thailand might be a big issue in this situation, where you want as few raised eyebrows as possible when your are exiting Thailand alone with your child. Even with that passport, you need to be prepared to be asked some questions about where the mother is when you exit Thailand. Especially since it sounds like you and your child's date of entry to Thailand will be different, a competent officer will probably wonder more than a little about the reason for that.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Awk

[sniper]

Those are exactly my concerns, they are all technicalities which can be problematic, I am considering booking a cheap flight to kl or singapore, so that if I get stopped at exit, I can book another cheap flight and try again and again until I get lucky at immigration and a less diligent official lets us through, so I can afford to forfeit a few cheap flights. Then I can fly onwards from there. I would consider crossing the border into malaysia by sea without passport control and presenting ourselves at our embassy in KL but don't know if that is a good or bad idea 

[sanemax]

11 minutes ago, sniper said:

Those are exactly my concerns, they are all technicalities which can be problematic, I am considering booking a cheap flight to kl or singapore, so that if I get stopped at exit, I can book another cheap flight and try again and again until I get lucky at immigration and a less diligent official lets us through, so I can afford to forfeit a few cheap flights. Then I can fly onwards from there. I would consider crossing the border into malaysia by sea without passport control and presenting ourselves at our embassy in KL but don't know if that is a good or bad idea 

Not a good idea to enter Malaysia illegally, the British Embassy would not help you if you break the law , also, if you try to get a new PP, you would have to lie to the Police, which is also not a good idea.

  You need to get hold of the PP in which the child entered Thailand, in order to leave without any issues, if you can leave Thailand on that PP, immigration will not ask for any permission from the mother or anything .

    You could ask the mother to go with you on a visa run to Malaysia, for a holiday and when you get there, fly back to the UK with the child

[Danielsiam]

But the problem if he's not married to her mother ( or divorced without given custody )

 

He can being charged into the kidnapping law of Thailand, as any kid born of Thai mother, and the father is not married to her and not given a custody he can be in the criminal case in Thailand as he don't have any parental rights and the child is considered only Thai at Thailand law. I hope I am wrong but it is what I guess as they said a biological father don't have any right into  Thai laws,  mother can make troubles to him if ever he back to Thaland or even countries who have extradition treaties

[sanemax]

Just now, Danielsiam said:

But the problem if he's not married to her mother ( or divorced without given custody )

 

He can being charged into the kidnapping law of Thailand, as any kid born of Thai mother, and the father is not married to her and not given a custody he can be in the criminal case in Thailand as he don't have any parental rights and the child is considered only Thai at Thailand law. I hope I am wrong but it is what I guess as they said a biological father don't have any right into  Thai laws,  mother can make troubles to him if ever he back to Thaland or even countries who have extradition treaties

In reality though, the Police do not get involved in family disputes, as long as the Child is with either parent .

  Its not actually illegal to kidnap your own child in Thailand , Ive done  it three times already .

[Danielsiam]

22 minutes ago, sanemax said:

In reality though, the Police do not get involved in family disputes, as long as the Child is with either parent .

  Its not actually illegal to kidnap your own child in Thailand , Ive done  it three times already .

That's good news..  you was married or had custody ?

 

I have a Thai daughter from a Thai woman, ( never married ) but she give me my daughter as she's not have time to take care her daughter ( she told me, she will have good life in your country, but they except to visit her every year but I have Filipina girlfriend now, and if she knew it, she will not really agree that her daughter being with a mother who is from Philippines ) but I afraid someday she gonna change her mind, and ask her daughter back ( Actually I am even in SEA / Thailand ) but only using my EU passport daughter to avoid any troubles to exit Thailand. Even her mother doesn't know I am in Thailand.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Danielsiam

[Been there done that]

2 hours ago, Danielsiam said:

That's good news..  you was married or had custody ?

 

I have a Thai daughter from a Thai woman, ( never married ) but she give me my daughter as she's not have time to take care her daughter ( she told me, she will have good life in your country, but they except to visit her every year but I have Filipina girlfriend now, and if she knew it, she will not really agree that her daughter being with a mother who is from Philippines ) but I afraid someday she gonna change her mind, and ask her daughter back ( Actually I am even in SEA / Thailand ) but only using my EU passport daughter to avoid any troubles to exit Thailand. Even her mother doesn't know I am in Thailand.

So because of your fear your daughter cannot spent time with her mother. Evil !

[Been there done that]

2 hours ago, sanemax said:

In reality though, the Police do not get involved in family disputes, as long as the Child is with either parent .

  Its not actually illegal to kidnap your own child in Thailand , Ive done  it three times already .

Police does not get involved in family disputes at all.

[sanemax]

3 hours ago, Danielsiam said:

That's good news..  you was married or had custody ?

 

 

Not married and had no custody .

Even if one person had a Court order granting sole custody, the Police wont get involved .

They regard it as a civil matter and they dont really care whether the child is with its mother or father