Bought 12 Cows have limited knowledge

[thoongfoned]

1 hour ago, kickstart said:

Vitamin E deficiency can result in poor reproduction and impaired immune system. Many of the signs of vitamin E deficiency are similar to those of selenium deficiency (see Mineral Deficiency).

The above comes from a veterinary manual 

The relationship with vitamin E and the mineral selenium is well known, in cattle as well as pigs, ask your feed company guy he should know? you can get a vitamin E selenium injection, could well be better than an AD3E.

so like i have said above i can not see any problem with the animals lacking vits or other enviro stuff, they get all they need from the gestation then lactation feed, the idea i think with the ad3s addition is like a final chance to come into heat before the sausage man collects.....

for me i would say a hormone injection (lutalyse) stands more of a chance of stimulating coming into heat....  

again it a time thing, with the pigs we try to keep empty/non producing days to under 10/15 per year on average on each sow.....this is easyer said then done though on 100's of animals....

[Lui87]

Please help, my friends father wants to sell two buffalo and one or two cows, he needs the money asap to help cover his medical procedure an cost.He was low balled by his friend for 10,000 baht for cow.he  not sell. Email me please at [email protected]

Location SURIN

[kickstart]

On 7/4/2018 at 10:09 AM, thoongfoned said:

so like i have said above i can not see any problem with the animals lacking vits or other enviro stuff, they get all they need from the gestation then lactation feed, the idea i think with the ad3s addition is like a final chance to come into heat before the sausage man collects.....

for me i would say a hormone injection (lutalyse) stands more of a chance of stimulating coming into heat....  

again it a time thing, with the pigs we try to keep empty/non producing days to under 10/15 per year on average on each sow.....this is easyer said then done though on 100's of animals....

Lutalyse has to be used at the right stage of the heat cycle, or it will not work, same in cattle about 50% of cattle injected with Lutalyse, do not come on heat, and if they are not fertile to start with, it will not work, and 10% could  have  cystic ovaries ,sausage man could well be busy 

Looking at the internet some pig breeders say Estramate works better.

[thoongfoned]

1 hour ago, kickstart said:

Lutalyse has to be used at the right stage of the heat cycle, or it will not work, same in cattle about 50% of cattle injected with Lutalyse, do not come on heat, and if they are not fertile to start with, it will not work, and 10% could  have  cystic ovaries ,sausage man could well be busy 

Looking at the internet some pig breeders say Estramate works better.

 if the young animal is hormone immature you will have problems with early breeding..... (hence my prep comment) especially like us if you are on a tight time frame, if we were to give the sow/gilt say 60/65 free/empty days they do tend to come into heat again, but not all, then these ones mostly birth small numbers, not just once but time and time again. 60 free days would = 5.5 bags of feed then X this by X animals a month then  the year and it comes to a nice amount. looking at the data from 20 farms in are area (over the years) that all have the same problems that = some serious baht. 

drugs like lutalyse are very good tools if you know how to use them properly. we will give the ad3e a go, i will report back in 100 plus days to see if it has any affect. applied the extra ad3e yesterday to 4 early parity sows so have started already....

with sow farms the sausage man is always busy.....

with young cattle how/do you prep them? and what sort of age?

[kickstart]

I will admit experience with pigs finished about 30 years ago, then it was 6-week weaning for piglets, things have changed a lot since then, but the profit margin was/is the same, not a lot.

We have one thing in common the price of feed like you feed is the biggest single expense for a dairy farmer (do not think of the money that has to be paid back to the BAAC) pigs being monogastric, only having one stomach

you only use one feed, all brought in, you have a problem with one sow/gilt  X  that by saying a hundred =a lot of baht .

With cattle, as I have wrote before forage is the biggest problem, finding good quality forage, and forage is mostly rice straw which dictates growth rates .and when a heifer can be served the first time. 

In the UK a heifer is served first at 15 months weighing about 300 kg, depending on breed, here in Thailand the average age is about 20months some are 2 years plus, very few weigh 300 kg , some 2-year-old heifers will be 300 kg a lot no more than 230-250 kg, again in the UK a heifer will first come on heat at 11 -12 months old here in Thailand it is very often 18 months old, again poor feeding the cause .

Most farmers know that a heifer can be served at 15 months, and some farmers do serve them at 15 months ,but most are too small ,and very often you will get calving difficult's  ,the dam is just too small to calve the calf ,and if the farmer feeds the heifer over well in the last  2-3 months before calving, increasing  the size of the growing  calf, leading to calving  difficulties ,in a past life ,not so long ago I have calved  a few heifers ,most were the above problems  dam to small, calf too big, I had the kit to do the job, most times we got a live calf out, a lot of times it was a dead calf, the Thai way is 4-5 Thai's   a rope attached to the calves legs and pull, a lot of times  equals a dead calf .

You asked about prepping them, well the farmers just feed them the same feed as the milking cows, no specific feeding/management program, with  rice straw  or grass used  on a cut and cart system depending  the time of year, dry season it will be rice straw, when the rains come some grass will be feed ,but some farmers over feed they heifers on concentrate and they are over fit , they come on heat, but have small ovaries, and  they will not get in calf, as we use to say you want cattle fit not fat, and then the farmers will inject AD3E, as I said for them a waste of time and money, most times it does not work . 

 

I can remember a few years ago a Thai friend phoned me, he use to milk some cows, then went in to pigs, had a problem one of his gilts was having problems farrowing, I went and had a look, what a job,, she had 4-5 piglets already  the others stuck , I managed to get a cord around the head of one and pulled it out ,and the back legs of another, they where dead ,he said they were over big for a gilt, why I do not know, sire to big, overfeeding . I think I  will stick with cattle.

[thoongfoned]

thanks for taking the time to reply.. it does not surprise me that the animals are lighter/older than they would be in the uk when time to breed. so you would breed on the first signs of oestrus?  they would then be in heat every 21 days after if not breed,(just googled) what the chances of say "twins" or more... when we had some cows only 1 ever popped out.... again its makes sense if the cow was small/underweight that they would have problems during labor ect.. just like the small/young gilts. when i think of putting an arm up a cow i think of all creature great and small.....

on the piglets getting stuck, most gilts to parity 5/6 birth very easily, unless they are feed to much during gestation then like you said the piglets are to big to pass out cleanly,  a small amount of gilts/sows will have difficult labors because of protruding bone, or just not strong enough contractions..... "sleaving" ie pulling out/helping pigs in labor usually needs to be done on old parity sows 10+ parity some will just lay there and form a que in side,then they usually are all still born....oldest we have in the farm is parity 17.... today the farm has had one parity 7 birth 13 alive (no dead ect) birth weight 1.6kg average and one gilt 9 alive (no dead) 1.8/1.9kg average, so these are large pigelts for a gilt, birthed very well on she own, all done in about 2 hours, start to finish....

with the gilts they should start to show signs of oestrus as early as 160/170 days (if exposed to the boar every day, and good condition) let them come in standing heat 2 or 3 times then breed from day 220, we now get the gilts at average 250 days old but still have problems with them not coming into heat...... for me most of the gilts that come to our area have nerver even seen a boar....but come with paper work ect to prove that they have..... the joys of not having control over what you are given, having said that we would never have got into pigs if it were not a contract set up like we have.... back before we built the farm my wife and i knew nothing at all a pigs.... first year was very interesting/555 

[kickstart]

4 hours ago, thoongfoned said:

thanks for taking the time to reply.. it does not surprise me that the animals are lighter/older than they would be in the uk when time to breed. so you would breed on the first signs of oestrus?  they would then be in heat every 21 days after if not breed,(just googled) what the chances of say "twins" or more... when we had some cows only 1 ever popped out.... again its makes sense if the cow was small/underweight that they would have problems during labor ect.. just like the small/young gilts. when i think of putting an arm up a cow i think of all creature great and small.....

on the piglets getting stuck, most gilts to parity 5/6 birth very easily, unless they are feed to much during gestation then like you said the piglets are to big to pass out cleanly,  a small amount of gilts/sows will have difficult labors because of protruding bone, or just not strong enough contractions..... "sleaving" ie pulling out/helping pigs in labor usually needs to be done on old parity sows 10+ parity some will just lay there and form a que in side,then they usually are all still born....oldest we have in the farm is parity 17.... today the farm has had one parity 7 birth 13 alive (no dead ect) birth weight 1.6kg average and one gilt 9 alive (no dead) 1.8/1.9kg average, so these are large pigelts for a gilt, birthed very well on she own, all done in about 2 hours, start to finish....

with the gilts they should start to show signs of oestrus as early as 160/170 days (if exposed to the boar every day, and good condition) let them come in standing heat 2 or 3 times then breed from day 220, we now get the gilts at average 250 days old but still have problems with them not coming into heat...... for me most of the gilts that come to our area have nerver even seen a boar....but come with paper work ect to prove that they have..... the joys of not having control over what you are given, having said that we would never have got into pigs if it were not a contract set up like we have.... back before we built the farm my wife and i knew nothing at all a pigs.... first year was very interesting/555 

Thanks for that, as I said it has been a long time since I have done anything with pigs, and I can just about remember some of those figures you quoted.

You can breed a heifer on the first service ,some farmers will call our local vet out to look at a non oestrus heifer ,often he will give her a Lutalys  injection ,some have cystic ovaries, which will cause non  oestrus ,she should come heat and can be breed, if she  comes on heat again it will be about a 20 -21 day cycle ,one of our beef cows was 19 days, a vet friend  of mine has seen heifers and first calving heifers on a 28-30 day cycle ,that is not right, I said poor diet, small non functioning ovaries, and probably short of minerals,he said  he could not agree more . (and the  owner will inject AD3E)

We have a Thai only problem some fit young heifers will come on heat at a young age, but being to young and too small, they will not be served, but Mr. Thai farmer says if a heifer keeps coming on heat and is not served, she will become infertile ,so you get again the problem of over small heifers being served ,and often the resulting problems, this is just an old wives tale and not true, but as we all know getting Thais to change they ways ....say no more .

Before we went into rearing beef cattle, we where rearing dairy heifers, buying in heifers feed them up, get them in calf and sell them on. 

Like you we had no control over the stock we brought ,one heifer ,a nice animal.come to us with some paperwork ,been with a couple of months ,but never come on heat,did an examination  on her  ,and she had no reproduction  system ,problem was ,she was a twin to a bull, which in a high percentage of heifer /bull twins she was born with no reproductive system ,it is a genetic problem, known as a freemartin ,so she went for Look Chin, meatballs ,and we never made a stang on her.

Twins are caused when the egg splits and get fertilized what the chances are, research done in the USA says 4,2%of calving resulted in twins, apparently it goes up to 5.8 %after the 2ed lactation.

When I left the last farm in the UK, they had a set of triplets, even made the local paper, the chances of triplets very unusually, a farm near here had a set of triplets, I would say you have more chances of winning the Thai lottery.

All creatures great and small, remember it well, the farm in the UK we did our own AI, so I have been they ........often 

[thoongfoned]

i think it could be said that  coming into standing heat is very similar in cows as in pigs, ie cycle basic 21 days but some early 18/19 some mid term 29/30 days some missed and of course the infertilty.... the joys of working with animals....

those meat balls that the milk cows get made into sell well here, they are the premuim brand in the noodle shops in the market town down the road (wife is there now, i bet eating some) the wife is always buying them by the bag, they start at around 250 baht in most noodle shops, have the picture of the black and white cows on the front.... i also like em.

 

[George Bowman]

I just don't understand why farmers have skinny herds. Don't they sell steers by the pounds/kilograms?

[kickstart]

 

Actually, this photo is of a heifer, not a steer, Thai's see cattle as a low investment enterprise  a.lot are keep like a bank any problems they sell a few cattle, for them, it would be a 100% profit, no investment.

My next door neighbour is a rice farmer and has a few beef cattle rears them like other beef farmers in the area, a few years ago cattle prices where good, he had a 3-4 year  bull, not a bad animal ,and another bull 2 years old,  they just grazed on the rice paddies and around a small river at the back of his land  and his own grown, rice straw  as a feed in the dry season, he sold them and brought a second tractor for his rice farm, for him that tractor was almost free , ok you say he had to keep that animal for 3-4 years ,it could have been sick,and died the bottom could have dropped out of the market ,and he would have got a low price for his stock, plus other factors ,it worked out well for him.  

Now sit down with a large mug of coffee and read about the op's experience of buying in cattle and fattening them up and the problems, and he had some very nice quality cattle, and he is not on his own, in trying a commercial beef fattening farm.

Who do you think made the most money.

[CLW]

Amazing video from the Netherlands how to make silage

[cobbler]

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
.
Can you get a 14% feed for 7baht/kg where you are, as I said it is a competitive market, our local feed merchants are always having promotions for one of the feed companies 
.You feed Nappier grass F in L,being a Thai probaly thinks in quantity and not  quality ,and cuts the grass ,as it is getting old ,so loseing quality ,and how much urea does he use, 8 rie will need a lot of urea 300 units a year  per rie about 8-10bags a year applied 2-3 times a year ,old Nappier gras with low urea use will have a protien of no more than 4-5% , then a 14% feed would be needed, you could feed a bit less but no more than 1-2 kg .
Would you get a noticeable weight gain? by use a14 % feed, in a nutshell, no, you might get to your target weight a couple of weeks earlier but do not think  of 2 months earlier  
As for that Wagyu being woth 16500 baht, you are buying it at Wagyu prices, can you sell it at Wagyu prices, you would need more than 100baht/kg,what your feed company is paying,  just to cover costs,  could ship it over to Kwie Bar's and sell it there? , but will they take cattle from outside they own set up? 
As for selling cattle else were, not easy, we have a place near here that pays well for good quality cattle but, the market all over is dropping you might get 120 baht/kg 200 kg away but transport costs and what is called Thai buggeration factor, hassle, would it be worth it.
Farmerjo puts it in a nut shell in his last post markets go up and down ,and it is the low cost grass feed  /graziers that gain . and comeing  from Australia were most? beef cattal are grazed .
This photo is of our Brangus x heifer, mum  is a Thai native  she is 21 months old weighs about 280-290 kg and is  4 months in calf ,I put a Beefmaster bull on her  ,she is fed on  our14% feed  plus brewers grains, Nappier grass silage and the tree legume Gratin in Thai, Leucaena Leucolephala, plus minerals, she has 2 1/2 kg/day of feed and the same of  brewers grains ,all the rest is forage,we have some grazing grass now the rains have come ,and have cut back on feed,and the Gratin.  

Not trying to be rude. Just a question. Have you put big breed bulls over your smaller cows before? Just asking as I've been following your thread for a while. Very keen on having a few cows maybe start with 10 or so. Thanks for your response.

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[kickstart]

HI cobbler 

                  A good question, here in Thailand  a "big bull " would be a Charolais  about the biggest bullused in Thailand  some Brahmans ,mainly imported ones can give big calves some Indo Brazil bulls on small cows can have problems ,the other breeds should throw  small calves  if you look at photos of Charolais cattle they have what is called double muscling, that is  having an extra muscle on the  rear quarters, which will give you more meat on the rear quarters ,so more  expensive rump stakes per animal, compared with other breeds like Angus .

With this double muscling it gives a wide back end on the animal, big hips and big shoulders, this will be the same with the calf.

So,if I put a Charolais bull on my Angus heifer or a small cow I could  have a problem  calving her ,the calf would be just to big ,especially the dam being a heifer, the hips of the calf  would /could get stuck on the hips of the dam,calf could well be dead, the dam could have a trapped nerve in the back  and torn muscles, enabling her to get up after calving .

Have seen the same problem with dairy cattle, CP has they own  cattle breeding program , dairy farmers are using they bulls on dairy heifers , some bulls are a big animals ,and the farmer's  over feeds the heifer ,not only will the heifer grow so will the calf inside her ,giving you a difficult calving ,and I have said somewhere else, in a past life -not so long ago I use to calve a good few heifers and cows ,and on heifers the above problem was very common, and a dead calf was common ,some you could not calve ,and we had to get a local vet in  to do a cesarean  section a lot of farmers say doing a C- section does not make  economical sense, the costs plus aftercare drugs can run to  5 000 baht, and they is no guarantee you will get the animal back in calf, some farmers will just load her on to a truck and send her for meat.

A small dairy farm near here has a few  very  nice Brahman x Charolais animals, he had a problem with one of his heifers, calving, a breech presentation, and the calf was upside down ,could not almost be worse ,the hips of the calf, are locked on to the hips of the dam ,normally you pull the back legs out, a bit, tie the legs  together, and use a small pole between the calfs legs and rotate the calf 180 degrees,so the calf is in an upright  position,then pull the calf out ,this one would not rotate ,had to get the vet in do a C section ,the calf was a  big Charolais, dead ,the owner had overfed her before calving, and used a Charolais bull on a heifer.

My  Brangus heifer as I said has a Beefmaster bull on her, the bull I used is known for thowing small calves, but I am going to have to cut back on her feed soon, she almost has to much condition on her.

So, what to use on a heifer, most Brahmans are ok, Angus would be ok, TV member  sugs11  has some Braford, Hereford x Brahman cattle if you can find some semen, they would do well, Porntip in Ratchaburi provence should have some Hereford semen.

If the cow has had 2 calves  she should be able to calve a Charolais, without any problem . 

[cobbler]

HI cobbler 
                  A good question, here in Thailand  a "big bull " would be a Charolais  about the biggest bullused in Thailand  some Brahmans ,mainly imported ones can give big calves some Indo Brazil bulls on small cows can have problems ,the other breeds should throw  small calves  if you look at photos of Charolais cattle they have what is called double muscling, that is  having an extra muscle on the  rear quarters, which will give you more meat on the rear quarters ,so more  expensive rump stakes per animal, compared with other breeds like Angus .
With this double muscling it gives a wide back end on the animal, big hips and big shoulders, this will be the same with the calf.
So,if I put a Charolais bull on my Angus heifer or a small cow I could  have a problem  calving her ,the calf would be just to big ,especially the dam being a heifer, the hips of the calf  would /could get stuck on the hips of the dam,calf could well be dead, the dam could have a trapped nerve in the back  and torn muscles, enabling her to get up after calving .
Have seen the same problem with dairy cattle, CP has they own  cattle breeding program , dairy farmers are using they bulls on dairy heifers , some bulls are a big animals ,and the farmer's  over feeds the heifer ,not only will the heifer grow so will the calf inside her ,giving you a difficult calving ,and I have said somewhere else, in a past life -not so long ago I use to calve a good few heifers and cows ,and on heifers the above problem was very common, and a dead calf was common ,some you could not calve ,and we had to get a local vet in  to do a cesarean  section a lot of farmers say doing a C- section does not make  economical sense, the costs plus aftercare drugs can run to  5 000 baht, and they is no guarantee you will get the animal back in calf, some farmers will just load her on to a truck and send her for meat.
A small dairy farm near here has a few  very  nice Brahman x Charolais animals, he had a problem with one of his heifers, calving, a breech presentation, and the calf was upside down ,could not almost be worse ,the hips of the calf, are locked on to the hips of the dam ,normally you pull the back legs out, a bit, tie the legs  together, and use a small pole between the calfs legs and rotate the calf 180 degrees,so the calf is in an upright  position,then pull the calf out ,this one would not rotate ,had to get the vet in do a C section ,the calf was a  big Charolais, dead ,the owner had overfed her before calving, and used a Charolais bull on a heifer.
My  Brangus heifer as I said has a Beefmaster bull on her, the bull I used is known for thowing small calves, but I am going to have to cut back on her feed soon, she almost has to much condition on her.
So, what to use on a heifer, most Brahmans are ok, Angus would be ok, TV member  sugs11  has some Braford, Hereford x Brahman cattle if you can find some semen, they would do well, Porntip in Ratchaburi provence should have some Hereford semen.
If the cow has had 2 calves  she should be able to calve a Charolais, without any problem . 

Hi KS ,
Thanks for that. Appreciate it. Grew up on a farm 5,500 acres in oz. We did it the oz way. Cows sheep pigs get pregnant. They give birth or die. Most survive.
After going to phillipines in my 30s and thinking i knew what i was doing. i learnt fairly quickly to forget everything i knew and start again. Tropical conditions change a lot of things I thought I knew.
So I'm thinking same is right with cattle.
I'm thinking to avoid some calving issues ,have straight brahmans. Or straight charolais. Not xbreed them. Buystraws. I have a friend in sukhothai ,he has or had 25 brahmans including calves,and buys straws . Hes got good looking cattle. Gets decent money. Just walks em round the rice padis and along road. You know the type. Sold some off last year and picked himself up a Kubota tractor. At 60 years old ,walking behind the motorised plough is getting difficult. They are a great family and hes a good manager.
Really enjoy following your threads. Tv is a wealth of knowledge on many subjects.
Cheers Cobbler

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[jenny2017]

Why would you buy a cow if you only want a glass of milk?

 

  

[cobbler]

Women .meh. rolls eyes

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[kickstart]

1 hour ago, jenny2017 said:

Why would you buy a cow if you only want a glass of milk?

 

  

No, I would go to 7-11 and buy some milk.

And I would like to see you try and milk a Brahman cow for a glass of milk, they can kick hard, these are beef cows not dairy.

[khwaibah]

17 minutes ago, kickstart said:

No, I would go to 7-11 and buy some milk.

And I would like to see you try and milk a Brahman cow for a glass of milk, they can kick hard, these are beef cows not dairy.

 

 

[kickstart]

17 hours ago, cobbler said:

Hi KS ,
Thanks for that. Appreciate it. Grew up on a farm 5,500 acres in oz. We did it the oz way. Cows sheep pigs get pregnant. They give birth or die. Most survive.
After going to phillipines in my 30s and thinking i knew what i was doing. i learnt fairly quickly to forget everything i knew and start again. Tropical conditions change a lot of things I thought I knew.
So I'm thinking same is right with cattle.
I'm thinking to avoid some calving issues ,have straight brahmans. Or straight charolais. Not xbreed them. Buystraws. I have a friend in sukhothai ,he has or had 25 brahmans including calves,and buys straws . Hes got good looking cattle. Gets decent money. Just walks em round the rice padis and along road. You know the type. Sold some off last year and picked himself up a Kubota tractor. At 60 years old ,walking behind the motorised plough is getting difficult. They are a great family and hes a good manager.
Really enjoy following your threads. Tv is a wealth of knowledge on many subjects.
Cheers Cobbler

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Finding 100%  Brahman not easy and very expensive, most are reared and sold for breeding, a lot of the best farms are in Issan, a 100% red Brahman heifer would be 30-40 000 baht if it is in calf 50 000 baht plus .all the value is in the breeding, not meat.

All the beef cattle you see are crossbreeds ,the best are Thai Native x Brahman, if you can find them, if they have short ears, they should be a  Thai  Native  x Brahman ,do not buy anything with long ears ,they are Indo Brazil x, Brahman, nothing but problems, do not graze well, and do not get fat .

Straight Charolais will be a problem, heat stress, and they will have to be fed well, like Indo Brazil's ,you want a  minimum  of  75% Charolais and 25% Brahman ,best is  60 %Charolais  and 40% Brahman ,they do not suffer from heat stress, and can still grow  walking around rice paddies, same breed  the OP's cattle, a bit of extra food plus minerals would do them well,and any Charolais x will be more expensive to buy  than Brahmans .

As I said go for Brahmans like your mate, But if you are going to AI  any cattle build a handling race, Thai  AI men will not AI  any beef cattle unless they are well secured. 

[kickstart]

On 7/21/2018 at 12:55 PM, CLW said:

Amazing video from the Netherlands how to make silage
 

The Dutch dairy farmers are some of the best in Europe, they are good at growing grass, but they did have, may still have, and big nitrate problem, all the urea fertilizer they use to make this grass grow .some of it was leaching into the watercourse.,

I would say this silaging outfit would be a silage contractors equipment, cannot see one farm affording it.

The photograph is the Thai equiverlent?chopping  a maize crop .againe no rain  good plants no cobs, poor pollination, ends up as cattle feed.

[CLW]

The Dutch dairy farmers are some of the best in Europe, they are good at growing grass, but they did have, may still have, and big nitrate problem, all the urea fertilizer they use to make this grass grow .some of it was leaching into the watercourse.,

I would say this silaging outfit would be a silage contractors equipment, cannot see one farm affording it.

The photograph is the Thai equiverlent?chopping  a maize crop .againe no rain  good plants no cobs, poor pollination, ends up as cattle feed.

Yes, the company in the video contractor and producer. And not a small one as KS guessed already, according to their website.

 

http://www.timmerman-alfalfa.uk/index.html

 

Just wondering about their prices and if they could compete with Australian alfalfa imports to Thailand..?

 

About the nitrate problem, this company in particular only grows alfalfa which is a legume. As you know it doesn't need nitrogen fertiliser.

However I've heard about the nitrate and leaching problem in New Zealand.

Sheep and Cattle in free range have grown tremendously and now some lakes, rivers and groundwater is polluted.

[kickstart]

17 hours ago, CLW said:

Yes, the company in the video contractor and producer. And not a small one as KS guessed already, according to their website.

 

http://www.timmerman-alfalfa.uk/index.html

 

Just wondering about their prices and if they could compete with Australian alfalfa imports to Thailand..?

 

About the nitrate problem, this company in particular only grows alfalfa which is a legume. As you know it doesn't need nitrogen fertiliser.

However I've heard about the nitrate and leaching problem in New Zealand.

Sheep and Cattle in free range have grown tremendously and now some lakes, rivers and groundwater is polluted.

HI CLW

            Looking at the end of that video it looks like chimneys at the processing plant, which would make it a grass drying plant, and they would probably wilt the grass for 24 hours before chopping and drying.

Alfalfa hay imported into Thailand would be all sundried, with the costs of drying it would not be cost effective to send it over here, unless it for the top end market, racehorses.

This company does well to grow alfalfa in Holland ,must be a limited area,last time I was they, it was wet ,I was on a motorbike ,a lot of the land looked very heavy ,the UK is the same can only grow in a limited area ,alfalfa likes light free draining land.

Would it grow here in Thailand ? would the hot season kill it off, or waterlogging in the rainy season, it might grow on light Issan soil, with some irrigation in the hot season, it likes lots of P and K fertilizer and lime applied before sowing. 

As for New Zealand, not so surprised about the nitrate problem the NZ  dairy industry is renowned for its grass growing, very little concentrate is fed a bit in the winter, been doing it for a lot of years, going to be a big problem for them.

[user343434]

I once visited the Chokchai Farm in Isaan and took the tourist tour.

First I thought that would be something for my land and I thought by myself

"that's betting my bullocks to a barn dance."

They chew the high grass on the land and later I make the buck for the quality steak.

But then I got told that they Import tons of fresh cut grass from Laos to upkeep the milk production.  

Looks like a logistical challenge of the higher class to play in that kind of league.

 

I bought a few years ago some huge size Lao Cows (dont ask me what breed they were but they grew huge) for my father in law but after 5 years he gave up and sold all.

 

I am sure if you invest enough time and work it will go into profit.

We bought them between 25k and 35 k and the smallest sold for 45k as meat and some went up to 80k as far I remember but for my father in law it was too much work. 

Since he has 4 sons in law and all farangs he does well without cows ? 

 

good luck mate.. 

[kickstart]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-45123925

1. And  I thought we had problems, the drought in Australia affecting dairy farmers.

[IsaanAussie]

Here is a pair of pictures that shows the ongoing effect of the drought on pasture country here in Australia. The dairy industry has also been subject to extreme price pressure with some processors even claiming money back from the farmers. Not good, suicides and walkoffs happening frequently. 

[IsaanAussie]

Beef herds are under the same pressure. In country such as above there are farmers having to truck in water daily. One reported having to truck in over 100,000 litres per day from over 2hrs away to supply their 1000 head herd. There are parts of the country that have been under drought conditions for over ten years.

[New Cowboy]

Hi Again...... I have been out of Thailand since June now and not had much time to think about cows.

I have been logging on to this site from time to time to keep up with all the posts and the great info being shared. 

I consider myself very lucky to have so much great advice given by you experienced guys. Thank you all..

 

Just to update you:-  My father in law now has got a great relationship going on with the cow feed company who buy the cows. They have been buying monthly and call him up when to come. We have 3 slightly smaller cows left from original herd we started with. They are maybe 520kg....We will sell them maybe next month...

I have arranged the floor of the cow shed to be made concrete. The mud floor which I thought better for the cows was getting to wet and boggy with urine. The cows were sinking in too much and I thought we may get problems if they're hooves are continually wet with urine, dung and mud etc...one 600kg cow was up too his stomach at one point... I asked FiL to rotate the cows or keep adding straw but it wasn't working. So now we have hard standing. Not sure if that is best for cows but from solely a health point it seems the best option....

When we got down to just 3 cows left I asked Fil to start again to buy more. I asked him to get slightly younger cows at about 15 to 20000bht each... Obviously his hearing is not too good as he bought 1 at 20, 1 at 24 and 1 27000bht and then he bought 3 more at 81000 bht.....Maybe it's the translation !!!..  But he says they are great cows and will grow very big....(and he does know a good cow when he sees one)  Anyway we are working on it...

Financially for the first 12 cows we will have just about levelled out on straight costs on a  feed to weight to sold basis if the last 3 cows are 520kg at this time.... Now we need to work on making it profitable to cover infrastructure investment, time and effort and to make us all feel good that it can work......

 

 

 

Our plan is to buy the cows in 1 month cycles as we now have a good relationship with the buyer who will buy monthly from us.

We will get the cows weighed, castrated, vaccined and registered with the company with the company when we buy them... We will continue to buy they're protein feed as it is also a good price against competitors.. Our initial target plan is to get in a situation where they will buy 4 cows a month from us. Obviously we need to work out how long it takes us to get the cows to around 500 to 600kg.....and of course,  how much it costs...

Last year we bought a lot of grass in addition to the company protein. This year we have grown about 7 rai of Nappier grass on our land next to the cow shed. We are also keeping our eye out for more land nearby.... The plan is to grow all of our own grass....and try out other types of additional food stuffs to supplement feeding..... I am taking note of all advice given on feed stuffs here..... Especially this cutting Nappier grass at 45 to 50 days...I need some data or evidence or  person the FiL will understand so he can also  understand the benefits or science behind it...And that's a hard call..

I'm probably just going to have to insist he does...and hopefully the difference will show in 12 months or so...

I would like to get into test growing other grasses but think I will need to be there to supervise/oversee.... Maybe in the future....For now I am best to stick to the Nappier which FiL knows...

 

I have now got the FiL weighing food stuffs for each cow daily and listing in a book weekly. Then hopefully we will have accurate records of food costs.... We can also then test feed on different amounts and food types for some cows as they are all fed individually. Fortunately the Sister in Law is keeping the books and accounts for me and detailing me by WhatsApp regularly so I can keep a little more in tune with things from afar.....

 

So in a nutshell and besides keeping the cows well,,,, it is all about buying well and keeping food costs as low as poss without losing the food to weight gain ratio too much......  There is no luck involved, its all work and experience required...... But I've started now so I won't stop until I've exhausted the options to turn a profit...,,, and my underlying thoughts are this..... I feel there is a growing domestic demand for beef  in Thailand and also a growing export market for prepared beef food products... It used to be all pork and chicken.... but Beef is on the rise.....

Hopefully I can rise with it.. all be it slowly slowly,,, but it's interesting trying and it keeps the family busy...

 

Ok, you might be getting bored with my long post now so I will finish off with one question :- 

Will banana tree stems and/or leaves be a good form of supplementary food or protein to the cows... We have a small supply of cost free banana trees and wonder whether we should work with it.... or get a bigger supply...

I asked the FiL to chop some up and test on 1 cow but have no feed back yet..

 

Once again, thanks for all of your help and advice...

 

Joe

 

 

[kickstart]

Feeding banana plants and leaves,is ok but they are not a good sauce of protein, the plants are 3.5-5.0 % protein, the leaves are higher at 9,5% protein, the energy leavals for leaves are high, the energy levels for the plant is low .

The main problem is the DM dry matter, it is 6.9 DM on the trunk /plant and 20.7 DM  on the leaves a 6.9 DM, means that the plant is 6.9% feed and   93.1 %water, as you can see the leaves are a better feed ,but the average banana plant is nearly all trunk, and by the time the leaves have been cut and carted, they will be a bit chewed up .

So, when cattle eat banana plants the animal will be full up on water, not feed, and they will not be putting on much weight, and the protein is not that high, but cattle love banana plants it is a good succulent for them.

You have put down some concrete, a good idea, but you will have a problem the dairy farmers  have found  when they concreted over the yards, what to do with all the muck ,now it will have to be collected and put/stored somewhere, another job for F in L , ok now with only a few head of stock ,but your proposed idea of   sending 4 fat animals a month, that must mean you must have 50? head of stock at various stages of growth, and that will provide you with a serious muck problem, it can be overcome, more labor or a tractor and scraper to shift the muck, and then somewhere to store it .more expense.

As for castrating the cattle, ok on small calves but on big 250kg animals a big job, that will probably put the animal back a month, it puts a lot of stress on the animal, research has shown that whole bulls will put on more weight than castrated bulls.

Cattle have an FCR, feed conversion rate of about 6:1 , they eat 6kg of food to put on 1kg of weight ,it also depends on the quality of the feed how much forage and how much concentrate, as forage is not the best of quality, (rice straw), and old Nappier grass,so  most of the weight gain would come from concentrate,

So, if you brought in your cattle at 250kg / head sold them at 550 kg /head weight gain of 300 kg, at an FCR of 6:1.that would be 1800 kg feed/ head, feed at 8 baht/kg? fed cost 14 400 baht/head, then they are forage costs, labor costs, on paper it looks good, see if it can be converted into real time.

Some members have been writing about this Sweet Israel grass, which I am beginning to think is Dwalf Nappier with a protein of 20% , try some, if it is as good as they say, and is grown and managed well you could well cut back on expensive concentrate costs.

[New Cowboy]

23 hours ago, kickstart said:

Feeding banana plants and leaves,is ok but they are not a good sauce of protein, the plants are 3.5-5.0 % protein, the leaves are higher at 9,5% protein, the energy leavals for leaves are high, the energy levels for the plant is low .

The main problem is the DM dry matter, it is 6.9 DM on the trunk /plant and 20.7 DM  on the leaves a 6.9 DM, means that the plant is 6.9% feed and   93.1 %water, as you can see the leaves are a better feed ,but the average banana plant is nearly all trunk, and by the time the leaves have been cut and carted, they will be a bit chewed up .

So, when cattle eat banana plants the animal will be full up on water, not feed, and they will not be putting on much weight, and the protein is not that high, but cattle love banana plants it is a good succulent for them.

You have put down some concrete, a good idea, but you will have a problem the dairy farmers  have found  when they concreted over the yards, what to do with all the muck ,now it will have to be collected and put/stored somewhere, another job for F in L , ok now with only a few head of stock ,but your proposed idea of   sending 4 fat animals a month, that must mean you must have 50? head of stock at various stages of growth, and that will provide you with a serious muck problem, it can be overcome, more labor or a tractor and scraper to shift the muck, and then somewhere to store it .more expense.

As for castrating the cattle, ok on small calves but on big 250kg animals a big job, that will probably put the animal back a month, it puts a lot of stress on the animal, research has shown that whole bulls will put on more weight than castrated bulls.

Cattle have an FCR, feed conversion rate of about 6:1 , they eat 6kg of food to put on 1kg of weight ,it also depends on the quality of the feed how much forage and how much concentrate, as forage is not the best of quality, (rice straw), and old Nappier grass,so  most of the weight gain would come from concentrate,

So, if you brought in your cattle at 250kg / head sold them at 550 kg /head weight gain of 300 kg, at an FCR of 6:1.that would be 1800 kg feed/ head, feed at 8 baht/kg? fed cost 14 400 baht/head, then they are forage costs, labor costs, on paper it looks good, see if it can be converted into real time.

Some members have been writing about this Sweet Israel grass, which I am beginning to think is Dwalf Nappier with a protein of 20% , try some, if it is as good as they say, and is grown and managed well you could well cut back on expensive concentrate costs.

Hi Kickstart,  

You really are giving some fabulous advice here. Great practical info on the banana plants....

 

At the moment FiL collects the dung, we use it for fertilizer on the nappier.... We will need more labour help when we get past 15 cows or so, but that is available as we need it... Family members and young local neighbours will work at local daily rates when required..

The castration is now done by the feed supply company. They have the holding cages for them that pretty much immobilises them whilst they get the horns shortened and flattened, vaccinated and castrated.

It all looks a bit rough on the cows but the company seems pretty experienced having done thousands over the years.

Interestingly, the company says that the cows will put on MORE weight after castration....I will research that further,,,but the company do NOT want to buy non castrated cows as they can be difficult to handle and aggressive with the other cows in the pen... So it seems we don't have so much choice on that issue if we want them to buy all of our cows regularly...

 

As for FCR...... I am unsure of the daily weight ratio gain but I am loosely basing it on 1.5 kg per day as per advice given and research....My latest records indicate that daily food costs for our bigger cows of 550kg to 600 kg were 2500bht per month...I don't have weight records or daily food cost records when we first bought the cows(only overall costs)But when the cows are smaller from around say 250kg they do not eat as much, but weight gain is still 1.5kg daily as the young cows naturally grow heavier as they grow older/bigger... I would estimate 1500bht food cost monthly from 250kg.... So if we take the average we will get 2000 bht monthly food costs...Which works out pretty similar to your estimated costings over a 7 month period.... But our food costs will start getting less now we are growing most of our own Nappier..

If we can keep buying the cows(250kg) under or around 25000 bht fatten them up 300kg over 200 days and sell at around 55000bht(100 bht kg) take 5000bht out for incidentals then we should be looking at 10000 bht per cow profit.....

But if we can get extra an 0.25 kg per day then we can expect an extra 5000 bht per cow. Also if we can sometimes buy 2 or 3000bht cheaper that will help also.... and growing our own grass may save 1 or 2000bht.. So when we fine tune things we could get 20000 bht profit per cow which is the target....(The FiL was getting this rate 2 years back when working for someone else,,, but selling kg prices were higher then)

Most importantly if I can find better selling options perhaps I can get a better  kg rate,, but I think most cow buying company's will require some level of registration with them or full registered  cow history before they allow cows into the public food chain... 

 

We are in the hands of just one company that dictates the terms at the moment. Fortunately I find them to be a good company , but I really do need to find other  options as 100 bht kg is just too low.... 

 

In the mean time I am going to take your advice and try to get FiL to try some Sweet Israel grass. At 20% protein it sounds great... It will take me a bit of time to work it out but it's worth pursuing..

 

Once again, Thanks for your great advice..

 

Best regards

 

Joe

[thoongfoned]

get some/or buy mostly female cows and breed em, long term it will be a winner.

as you say having only one buyer is not great, but its better then having none, at least you know they will take the animal and then pay you....