Price tag of Thai-Japanese high-speed train project is 420 billion baht

[Ossy]

15 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

Great pics, Dave and good to see that so many guys have been looking along the bright lines in their job-search.

[chainarong]

At China's costs,  the lowest of the low , 20 Million dollars a Kilometre,  US or  Oz costs,  50 million a Kilometre

[bluesofa]

 

6 hours ago, Cadbury said:

According to Wiki the track is being built for speeds up to 250kph.....not 380kph as claimed. Quite a large variation. Another source says 300kph. Which is correct?

If say it did travel at 380kph that would make it the second fastest train in the world. Nothing but the best for Thailand and all for 1000baht/ticket. The next interesting figure to know would be how many passengers?

High-Speed Corridor	Route	Speed (km/h)	Length (km)	Network	Projected Operation	Status
Bangkok-Phitsanulok HSR	Bangkok–Ayutthaya–Phitsanulok	250	384	Japan	2026 (Forecast)	Planned
Phitsanulok-Chiang Mai HSR	Phitsanulok–Uttaradit–Lampang–Chiang Mai	250	285	Japan	Unknown	Planning Stage

How many passenger? I think both of them.

Edited December 20, 2017 by bluesofa

[bluesofa]

5 hours ago, Dave67 said:

380kph is misinformation or bullshit as I like to call it

 

UK Billion a  Million Million or US Billion 1 Thousand Million

Ha ha, regarding Billion, very true Dave!

 

What would a realistic speed likely to be, seeing as you're in this industry?

[Dave67]

19 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

Ha ha, regarding Billion, very true Dave!

 

What would a realistic speed likely to be, seeing as you're in this industry?

300kph Max Definition High speed 250kph. To be honest with you Sofa mate must of what they announce is complete shit 

[bluesofa]

2 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

300kph Max Definition High speed 250kph. To be honest with you Sofa mate must of what they announce is complete shit 

OK, thanks.

BTW, I don't have a settee, but I get the hang of your misprit.

[Ricardo]

4 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

Submarines don't go uphill in klongs.

 

I may need to reconsider my plans for surfing the rapids in one, then.

[Srikcir]

12 hours ago, webfact said:

The maximum speed of the train is 380 kph

But ...

• trains on the route were expected to be capable of 250km/h  http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Way-clear-for-joint-rail-project-30260975.html
• The 672-kilometer Bangkok - Chiang Mai High Speed Train project will utilize Japan’s Shinkansen technology, capable of reaching speeds of approximately 200 kilometers per hour on the 1.435-meter standard gauge track. https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/852141-japanese-company-eyes-investment-in-thailand’s-rail-development/

Trip is going to take longer compared to 350-380 kph.

12 hours ago, webfact said:

the investment cost of the high-speed train project at 420 billion baht

• the project's value was estimated at Bt400 billion, thanks to a low-interest loan from Japan. The government hopes that the interest rate will not exceed 1.5 per cent. (2015-05-27) http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Way-clear-for-joint-rail-project-30260975.html

So an escalation of Bt20 billion to date, funds to be borrowed from Japan and as yet no definitive interest rate nor loan term. Very little transparency in financing this project. If there's risk of loan default, Japan will want a higher interest rate, ie., 2.5% as demanded from the Chinese on the Dual Rail project (lowered after China received an additional "consulting fee" of Bt3-4 billion).

 

 

[Thechook]

Australia scrapped their plan for a high speed rail as such a system isn't viable, flight is cheaper and quicker.

[Ossy]

11 hours ago, bluesofa said:

 

How many passenger? I think both of them.

They'll need more than 2 passengers to make it pay . . . surely.

[bluesofa]

20 minutes ago, Ossy said:

They'll need more than 2 passengers to make it pay . . . surely.

Not if they both pay enough for their tickets....ha ha!

[sanuk711]

19 hours ago, ChrisY1 said:

This is going to end up as another major fail!....it it actually ever gets going!

Another Major fail ChrisY1...... and the other major fails were ...???

--------

The Japanese will oversee the building & use their technicians for this project, why would the 2nd most competent HSR builder fail.

 

.

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by sanuk711

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, sanuk711 said:

Another Major fail ChrisY1...... and the other major fails were ...???

--------

The Japanese will oversee the building & use their technicians for this project, why would the 2nd most competent HSR builder fail.

 

.

 

It's likely the project will be built the same as the Chinese dual rail project: Thai contractors build the civil works (ie., track subgrade, drainage system, road infrastructure, stations, bridges, tunnels) while the Japanese contractors supply the train and installs the high speed technology such as rail system, command & control system, signaling, communications, etc.

How could anything go wrong?

[Dave67]

8 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

It's likely the project will be built the same as the Chinese dual rail project: Thai contractors build the civil works (ie., track subgrade, drainage system, road infrastructure, stations, bridges, tunnels) while the Japanese contractors supply the train and installs the high speed technology such as rail system, command & control system, signaling, communications, etc.

How could anything go wrong?

Japanese will not let Thai contractors build the track MHI Mitsubishi Heavy Industries the Main contractor always for that slab track system. They have their own sub-con Fujita so I doubt they'll let they're the Thais near their slab track system. Probably some kind of JV between MHI who have there own civils people and Hitachi or any Systems company to cover the comms, power, and signaling. The Thais will be a sub-cons at the most

[sanuk711]

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

How could anything go wrong?

I dont know Srikcir.....is it going wrong in China...who are by far the biggest and most advance country in the world for this transport, it  reaches 29 of the country's 33 provincial-level administrative divisions and exceeds 22,000 km (14,000 mi) in total length, accounting for about two-thirds of the world's high-speed rail tracks in commercial service.

--are we picking up the paper and seeing rail crashes. Trains running off the tracks....Oh no sorry that's America isn't it.

 

Anything Thailand does is usually subject to the Can't do it mob....there just not clever like us folks.....So hope your still around when they finish it, because the last lot of can't be done mob..re the  Sky train/Underground train system, Airport ..etc......all seem to disappear when these projects were up and running.

 If you feel sitting on your bar stall that you have found some sort of fault in their engineering system that they have built in other countries around the world as well as in their own, write to them. I am sure they will enjoy pinning your thoughts up on the board............

[Dave67]

30 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

I dont know Srikcir.....is it going wrong in China...who are by far the biggest and most advance country in the world for this transport, it  reaches 29 of the country's 33 provincial-level administrative divisions and exceeds 22,000 km (14,000 mi) in total length, accounting for about two-thirds of the world's high-speed rail tracks in commercial service.

 

--are we picking up the paper and seeing rail crashes. Trains running off the tracks....Oh no sorry that's America isn't it.

 

Anything Thailand does is usually subject to the Can't do it mob....there just not clever like us folks.....So hope your still around when they finish it, because the last lot of can't be done mob..re the  Sky train/Underground train system, Airport ..etc......all seem to disappear when these projects were up and running.

 If you feel sitting on your bar stall that you have found some sort of fault in their engineering system that they have built in other countries around the world as well as in their own, write to them. I am sure they will enjoy pinning your thoughts up on the board............

Who do think taught the Chinese to built high-speed railways? They are not advanced their quality is low, they may be fast and supposedly a 90 year lifetime but I'll give it 30 years before it falls apart

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, sanuk711 said:

.is it going wrong in China

What part of the Chinese train system was built by Thailand?

[Srikcir]

3 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Japanese will not let Thai contractors build the track

I didn't say Thailand will build the track. But likely build the rough subgrade upon which a track laying system would operate from.

[Dave67]

32 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

I didn't say Thailand will build the track. But likely build the rough subgrade upon which a track laying system would operate from.

I was quoting the person who quoted you mate

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 2:18 PM, Ricardo said:

The first section, across the flat land of Central Thailand, was estimated just a few days ago as costing 280 billion, or 737 million Baht per-km.

 

" Mr Arkhom said the first section is from Bangkok to Phitsanulok, covering a total distance of 380 kilometres with an investment cost of 280 billion baht. "

 

So the more-challenging 290-km (670km minus 380km) northern-section, to be built later on through the mountain-ranges between Phitsanulok and Chiang Mai, will only cost 140 billion  (420billion minus 280 billion)  or 483 million Baht per-km  ...  really ?

 

Something doesn't really sound quite right.

Far as I know they made an error. It's not going to C M according to a previous thread, but to Chiang Rai to link up with the railway to be built through Laos, which makes more sense. After all, the entire project is just to link China to southern ports to transport goods to Europe more cheaply, and little to do with passengers, isn't it?

The cleverness of the Chinese is that they have convinced LOS to build a railway it doesn't need at it's own expense.

 

The cost of building a hi speed railway to C M from north of Uttaradit would be prohibitive, but quite easily done to Phrae and from there on it's mostly flat to C R.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, sanuk711 said:

 

 

Anything Thailand does is usually subject to the Can't do it mob....there just not clever like us folks.....So hope your still around when they finish it, because the last lot of can't be done mob..re the  Sky train/Underground train system, Airport ..etc......all seem to disappear when these projects were up and running.

 If you feel sitting on your bar stall that you have found some sort of fault in their engineering system that they have built in other countries around the world as well as in their own, write to them. I am sure they will enjoy pinning your thoughts up on the board............

Well, I never said they couldn't build the skytrain- there were enough Thais saying it couldn't be done. It's just a pity they didn't do a better job of it.

[Ricardo]

59 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Far as I know they made an error. It's not going to C M according to a previous thread, but to Chiang Rai to link up with the railway to be built through Laos, which makes more sense. After all, the entire project is just to link China to southern ports to transport goods to Europe more cheaply, and little to do with passengers, isn't it?

The cleverness of the Chinese is that they have convinced LOS to build a railway it doesn't need at it's own expense.

 

The cost of building a hi speed railway to C M from north of Uttaradit would be prohibitive, but quite easily done to Phrae and from there on it's mostly flat to C R.

 

There are perhaps some five different projects  ...  which are easily confused with one another :-

 

1.  The Thai/Japanese standard-gauge high-speed passenger-only line to Phitsanulok, then on to Chiang Mai, which the OP is about.  And where the numbers quoted in the OP are, to put it politely, questionable because of the mountain-ranges in-the-way on the northern section.

 

2.  The Chinese/Thai standard-gauge medium-speed heavy-freight (plus a few medium-speed passenger trains) line to Nong Khai, linking with the line from Southern-China through Laos, which is currently under-construction in Laos.

 

One 3km-test-section of this may be started in the next year or two, and the first main section from Bangkok to Khorat is also getting closer, in fact they've held ground-breaking ceremonies once or twice already !

 

The second section (Khorat to Nong Khai) and third section (branching-off down to Laem Chabang & the Eastern Seaboard ports & industrial-areas, are still some way off.

 

3.  The possible longer-term second standard-gauge medium-speed heavy-freight line through Den Chai, then passing Chiang Rai and up the Mekhong valley to China.  This is a long way off as-yet, but might eventually be needed, as the first Chinese/Thai line (once built & operating) gets close to capacity. 

 

4.  The long-proposed never-started SRT metre-gauge single-track line from Den Chai to Chiang Rai, which is wheeled out every election-time, with a poster showing a DMU-unit standing at a station named Chiang Rai.  I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.  I think you're referring to either (3) or (4) in your post ?

 

5.  The ongoing SRT twenty-year metre-gauge track-doubling project, part of which is (amongst other things) to improve sections of the North-Western line, under-funded but under-way ?

 

But I may have missed some other proposals !  The standard of reporting in the media doesn't aid clarity IMO.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Ricardo

[Ricardo]

3 hours ago, sanuk711 said:

--are we picking up the paper and seeing rail crashes. Trains running off the tracks....Oh no sorry that's America isn't it.

 

But this one in 2011 was in China, wasn't it ?  

 

"A bullet train crash which killed 40 people in China in July was caused by design flaws and sloppy management, the Chinese government says.  Almost 200 people were injured in the crash near the south-eastern city of Wenzhou."

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-16345592

 

and also  "The two trains involved were based on technology from Bombardier and Kawasaki.[13] Train CRH1-046B is a variant of the Swedish Bombardier Regina, while the second train CRH2-139E is a derivative of the Japanese E2 Series Shinkansen 'bullet train.'[7] Kawasaki and other companies in Japan are currently challenging China's high-speed rail project for patent license violations."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision

[Dave67]

10 hours ago, sanuk711 said:

I dont know Srikcir.....is it going wrong in China...who are by far the biggest and most advance country in the world for this transport, it  reaches 29 of the country's 33 provincial-level administrative divisions and exceeds 22,000 km (14,000 mi) in total length, accounting for about two-thirds of the world's high-speed rail tracks in commercial service.

 

--are we picking up the paper and seeing rail crashes. Trains running off the tracks....Oh no sorry that's America isn't it.

 

Anything Thailand does is usually subject to the Can't do it mob....there just not clever like us folks.....So hope your still around when they finish it, because the last lot of can't be done mob..re the  Sky train/Underground train system, Airport ..etc......all seem to disappear when these projects were up and running.

 If you feel sitting on your bar stall that you have found some sort of fault in their engineering system that they have built in other countries around the world as well as in their own, write to them. I am sure they will enjoy pinning your thoughts up on the board............

Sorry buddy didn't mean to be terse

Edited December 21, 2017 by Dave67

[Dave67]

Apologies to all the Railway Posse, There are many people in the industry who are in false positions, Snr Track Engineers, for example, I know many who should only be making the coffee. I have no a patience with them at all. I also have to ensure they do their work properly and I'm quite short with them throwing a few Fs into them. I shouldn't be what we call in the trade a Railway Fascist on TV

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, Ricardo said:

 

There are perhaps some five different projects  ...  which are easily confused with one another :-

 

1.  The Thai/Japanese standard-gauge high-speed passenger-only line to Phitsanulok, then on to Chiang Mai, which the OP is about.  And where the numbers quoted in the OP are, to put it politely, questionable because of the mountain-ranges in-the-way on the northern section.

 

2.  The Chinese/Thai standard-gauge medium-speed heavy-freight (plus a few medium-speed passenger trains) line to Nong Khai, linking with the line from Southern-China through Laos, which is currently under-construction in Laos.

 

One 3km-test-section of this may be started in the next year or two, and the first main section from Bangkok to Khorat is also getting closer, in fact they've held ground-breaking ceremonies once or twice already !

 

The second section (Khorat to Nong Khai) and third section (branching-off down to Laem Chabang & the Eastern Seaboard ports & industrial-areas, are still some way off.

 

3.  The possible longer-term second standard-gauge medium-speed heavy-freight line through Den Chai, then passing Chiang Rai and up the Mekhong valley to China.  This is a long way off as-yet, but might eventually be needed, as the first Chinese/Thai line (once built & operating) gets close to capacity. 

 

4.  The long-proposed never-started SRT metre-gauge single-track line from Den Chai to Chiang Rai, which is wheeled out every election-time, with a poster showing a DMU-unit standing at a station named Chiang Rai.  I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.  I think you're referring to either (3) or (4) in your post ?

 

5.  The ongoing SRT twenty-year metre-gauge track-doubling project, part of which is (amongst other things) to improve sections of the North-Western line, under-funded but under-way ?

 

But I may have missed some other proposals !  The standard of reporting in the media doesn't aid clarity IMO.

Thanks for clearing that up.

IMO any hi speed line to C M is a non starter if passenger only. The money is in freight and the cost of going through the mountains for passenger only trains is prohibitive. Far better to double the track to allow for faster transit of all trains, freight and passenger. Would have to run single track through the tunnels, but double elsewhere would be a vast improvement on present times caused by having to wait for oncoming trains.

Also, a good investment would be improved restaurant cars which are presently "shoddy", to be polite.

[Ricardo]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

I try, but am only a fallible human, like everyone else.

 

I think perhaps the bureaucrats or politicians aren't all-that-good at communicating clearly.

 

Quote

IMO any hi speed line to C M is a non starter if passenger only. The money is in freight and the cost of going through the mountains for passenger only trains is prohibitive. Far better to double the track to allow for faster transit of all trains, freight and passenger. Would have to run single track through the tunnels, but double elsewhere would be a vast improvement on present times caused by having to wait for oncoming trains.

 

" single track through the tunnels "

 

I Like that idea ! 

 

So often you can get most-of-the-bang for far fewer bucks, if the pressure is on efficiency or cost-saving, rather than mega-investments generating larger brown-envelopes.  Will it ever happen here  ...  one can only hope.

 

Quote

Also, a good investment would be improved restaurant cars which are presently "shoddy", to be polite.

 

Start serving beer again  ...  most expats would drink to that !

Edited December 22, 2017 by Ricardo
Oops, falible was an example, and my spelling's attroshus too !

[metisdead]

Off topic trolling posts about submarines have been removed as well as the replies. 

[kickstart]

I read another article about the HST, saying a fair of 1200 baht, compatible with low-cost airlines, but they also said the Thai government is looking at the cost and is dragging its feet, the Japanese government said  it can be paid for over a period of 3-4 years , another Hopewell project 

I am  in Lopburi province ,  on the  Chinese Bangkok-Nong Khai line ,and near me thay are allready building a flyover, going over the railway line.