What to do ?

[thaibeachlovers]

57 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

Well, you've been flamed sprayed enough already......   I would agree with you that 3 to 4 years old is a bit too young even for Thailand.  However I'm not surprised by your revelation as much as you seemed to be, so the impression you gave was one of a wide-eyed newbie.

 

I think that's what prompted some of the high handed responses.  I was also left trying to reconcile your OP with the suggestion you made later on, that you have been traveling Thailand for a long time.

 

Thailand is a rich, corrupt poor country.  Expect folks from the poorer provinces will be heading to Bangkok and other tourist/manufacturing zones for a long time to come.

The street beggars have recently returned to Chiang Mai for the high season. I wonder how they survive during the 6 or so months of low season. They don't look underfed either.

At the restaurant I like a couple of young kids always come along to beg from the farang customers.

 

There is one thing that gives the fake beggars away though, they never ask Thais for money, only tourists. Most Thais know the scammers for what they are.

[55Jay]

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The street beggars have recently returned to Chiang Mai for the high season. I wonder how they survive during the 6 or so months of low season. They don't look underfed either.

At the restaurant I like a couple of young kids always come along to beg from the farang customers.

 

There is one thing that gives the fake beggars away though, they never ask Thais for money, only tourists. Most Thais know the scammers for what they are.

I live a few hours drive N of BKK.  Don't get down there much, by choice, but did recently.  We walked lower Suk just to look around.  I was taken aback by the women with kid(s) sat on elevated pedestrian walkways in that area, and on the sidewalk toward Arab town by Rameez Supermarket.  Don't have any of that where I live, so it took me a few seconds to switch gears to Metro/Tourist area mode. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by 55Jay

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 2:25 PM, NancyL said:

The OP asked "what to do" and I was supplying an answer.

 

Try to determine if the child is being exploited, trafficked or was merely there with her family as a part of the "family act".  If it appears that the child is doing this activity against her will and no family member was close-by, then report the incident to the proper authorities.  If it's merely a case of a child performer with her family, then tip the child if the performance is good.

 

I fail to see how this is any different than the blind boy who sometimes plays the piano on weekend afternoons in the food court of the Kad Suan Kaew mall. He has a cup for tips near the piano, watched carefully by a woman who definitely seems to be his mother, sitting at a nearby table.  Sometimes Hubby and I eat our lunch in the food court and leave a tip for the boy.  Is this exploitation or recognition of the child's good performance? After all, a blind boy isn't going to be able to find a part-time job doing many other things.

I'm with you about the boy pianist. He could be doing it to earn pocket money and if it's only weekend afternoons OK. Different if he was doing it every day.

Also, if he gives a good performance why not give him a tip. In the US apparently piano players in bars have a tip box, but no one says they are being exploited

 

What annoyed me immensely in London were the so called buskers in the tube that expected passersby to give them money despite only a passing sound- just beggars. Busking used to be playing for theatre queues while they waited their turn at the box office- tipped for making the wait less boring. Now, of course, most cinemas and theatres have box offices inside, so no buskers there.

They used to play in one of the squares where people could gather to listen. I gave them money if I was listening a while. Unfortunately they were banned, probably because of the terrorism and making a good target. Didn't stop them having the rides at Xmas or the Thames Parade though. Life nowadays isn't getting better- going backwards.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 2:25 PM, NancyL said:

 

 

I fail to see how this is any different than the blind boy who sometimes plays the piano on weekend afternoons in the food court of the Kad Suan Kaew mall. He has a cup for tips near the piano, watched carefully by a woman who definitely seems to be his mother, sitting at a nearby table.  Sometimes Hubby and I eat our lunch in the food court and leave a tip for the boy. 

No different from the schoolboy ( in his uniform ) that sometimes plays the drums opposite Pantip in the outdoor food court. He plays with the band. Only an idiot would say that he was a "trafficked and exploited child". I'm sure he enjoys it as he's really good. No doubt has a future in a band when he leaves school.

[sanemax]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No different from the schoolboy ( in his uniform ) that sometimes plays the drums opposite Pantip in the outdoor food court. He plays with the band. Only an idiot would say that he was a "trafficked and exploited child". I'm sure he enjoys it as he's really good. No doubt has a future in a band when he leaves school.

Although no one is suggesting that the boy who plays drums outside PP was trafficked or being exploited.

  That young drummer is in a three piece band who have appeared on Thai TV talent shows and they play live to publicise their band and also for band practice , they also play on stage with proper instruments, thats quite different to a kid playing on a street with the sole intention of receiving money

[khunPer]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Up to you, but IMO it's never acceptable to exploit children under any circumstances, but I have the quaint and obviously laughable opinion that people should only have children if they can support them.

Apparently it's normal to have loads of kids and then exploit them.

Thanks for your opinion, but you seem to miss the understanding of the different culture and way of thinking, where kids are an investment in the future, and meant to take care of their parents; even that also slowly begin to change in some Southeast Asian areas to the way Westerner's think. However in old time we Westerner's had the same way of thinking about children, being workers for grown-ups...

[khunPer]

3 hours ago, sanemax said:

Although I do question whether those kids are being trafficked or not .

Why would a person go all the way to Cambodia, spend all that money and take a risk to get a mother and child here, when there are multitudes of Thais who would be available ?

Also, why would someone do that, for so little monetary reward ?

Why dont you see bargirls, with kids back in their village, bringing their kids into town and getting them to sell flowers ?

Reason being that theres little money to be made .

Why would a person go all the way to Cambodia, to get a child to work for them, when they would have the hassle and cost of supporting them ?

It just doesnt make semse

IMO, the flower sellers are just poor Thai families, just making a few Baht to survive.

 

I can only talk about the Samui kids being "imported", because that's a well known local fact. However begging-industry is a profitable business, re. several Thai news articles in the past few years. It's a profitable business to rent children to sell flowers, if it was not a good business, the Children would not be rented and moved from Cambodia. And no-one goes all the way to Cambodia to get a child, it's a well organized trade.

 

I think you misunderstood when I mentioned mention of "mother" in a previous post, I said it's the old lady looking after the flower selling kids in the nightlife, same old lady that I've seen for about 15 years.

 

If you visit Cambodia, you'll find numerous "orphan homes", and many more foreign supporters, that's also a kind of "business". One home I visited in Phnom Penh, all the children came from the same village. They were not really orphans, but had no future staying home in the village, so instead they organized an orphan home in the capital, and received donations from foreigners believing they help orphan street children. My Thai khmer-speaking girlfriend talked same language as the children, and she was told more than foreigners normally got to know. The children were also taught dance and music, so they could perform for turists in the city during evenings, and collect money. Kind of win-win situation, as the orphan home also included a school, providing a better future for the children than staying in a remote rural village; and as my home-country friend, a regular supporter of that orphan home, said: as long as the leader of the orphan home don't change his bad teeth to gold, he would gladly continue to support their school.

 

It's a difficult matter, because even kids may be "exported" in kind of trafficking, they may also produce an income for their families back home – just like migrant workers – however the children should be in school, rather than selling flowers in the streets at night. One poster mentioned »...trafficked children from Myanmar who have been sold to traffickers who promise to look after them, make sure they get an education and promise to send additional money home to their families,« which promise sound more like win-win, even we Westerner's don't like the idea; however we don't know if the kids got an education...

 

Thai bar girls however, to my knowledge, normally leave their children with their parents or grandparents, they don't rent them out; instead the girls work (even hard) to send money home to take care of their children.

[greenchair]

The girl was doing a traditional thai dance. Why shouldn't she show off her cultural skills. It's actually a compliment to her parents and pride in her national culture. 

I would be concerned if she was dancing on a pole. 

[sanemax]

12 hours ago, khunPer said:

 

Thai bar girls however, to my knowledge, normally leave their children with their parents or grandparents, they don't rent them out; instead the girls work (even hard) to send money home to take care of their children.

Yes, but why wouldnt those bargirls bring their kids with them and get them to sell flowers, if there was big money to be made from selling the flowers  ?

   I am not talking about "renting the kids" out to flower selling gangs , I meant, why dont they do it themselves ?

   (Dont tell me that flower selling is mafia controlled )

I have no idea about KS , but in CM , the reason why bargirls dont get their kids to sell flowers, is because  there is a pittance to be made

[sanemax]

12 hours ago, khunPer said:

I can only talk about the Samui kids being "imported", because that's a well known local fact. However begging-industry is a profitable business, re. several Thai news articles in the past few years. It's a profitable business to rent children to sell flowers, if it was not a good business, the Children would not be rented and moved from Cambodia. And no-one goes all the way to Cambodia to get a child, it's a well organized trade.

 

 

Although local hearsay doesnt make something factual , also, there are regular sensationalist newspaper reports , there are also numerous NGO agencies tat give false portrays in order to keep their funding .

  Why would someone import a Cambodian child , or rent them, to sell flowers, when there are multitudes of Thai children, willing to sell flowers ?

   I just cannot envisage a Thai criminal, buying a Cambodian child , becoming the defacto parent , adopting them, just for the sole purpose of making a few Baht selling flowers .

  Now, I could find it quite believable if a Cambodian family came to Thailand and decided to sell flowers in order to make ends meet , but I do question all this mafia involvement

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, sanemax said:

I have no idea about KS , but in CM , the reason why bargirls dont get their kids to sell flowers, is because  there is a pittance to be made

–And I have no idea about Chiang Mai, so seem like we are talking same-same, but different...

 

3 hours ago, sanemax said:

Although local hearsay doesnt make something factual , also, there are regular sensationalist newspaper reports , there are also numerous NGO agencies tat give false portrays in order to keep their funding .

It's however factual at Koh Samui, which you "have no idea about".

 

4 hours ago, sanemax said:

Now, I could find it quite believable if a Cambodian family came to Thailand and decided to sell flowers in order to make ends meet , but I do question all this mafia involvement

I however didn't mention "mafia", I said "well organized". Seem like there's a demand for an academic study about kids selling flowers and like in the nightlife, and kids performing at markets. I appreciate your comments and thanks for a good debate with interesting point of views; but seems like we cannot get any further, as I have no background information about Chiang Mai or mafia; and what you believe about Koh Samui – "to say it the Thai way of thinking" – is of course up to you...

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, khunPer said:

–And I have no idea about Chiang Mai, so seem like we are talking same-same, but different...

 

It's however factual at Koh Samui, which you "have no idea about".

 

I however didn't mention "mafia", I said "well organized". Seem like there's a demand for an academic study about kids selling flowers and like in the nightlife, and kids performing at markets. I appreciate your comments and thanks for a good debate with interesting point of views; but seems like we cannot get any further, as I have no background information about Chiang Mai or mafia; and what you believe about Koh Samui – "to say it the Thai way of thinking" – is of course up to you...

IMO no need for any "study". It's wrong and just stop it.

It's not like Thailand is a poor country with a backward culture, like some I can think of.

If there is anything positive about it, it only that they don't blind or mutilate the kids to get more sympathy, as in a certain well known country.