PM’s definition of ‘democracy’ based on ‘Thai way’ fails the test: analysts

[Jai Dee]

Just another reminder... members are encouraged to discuss the subject matter, not each other.

 

Thanks for your understanding.

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, yellowboat said:

Well that is the price of freedom and you must adhere to the will of the people.  Voting cannot be turned off and on like a facet at a whim.  It must run its course.  The constant disruption by the army for the sake of the few, is hurting the country.  It is probably a big reason for good people to stay away from politics.  They fear the army will sack their government.  Would love to see Toon or Yinglucks transportation minister run, but why would they when those with unlimited and unchecked power can just put an end to all your service and endeavors in a single morning.   If you were a noble Thai person able to win office, would you fear the army?  Criminals, not decent people, may be the only people willing stand up to the Army.  Maybe that is why there is an endless stream of criminals. 

I would love to see toon run too, and that minister of transportation.. there are good people.. just not too many.

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

Oh quite simple if your proven to distort the facts a few time you get your right to broadcast suspended for a while. Only problem is finding a non bias party to check. I don't think its good to have free hatespeech going on. In my country they can bring hate speech to the courts and it has happened a few times in the past. So it is possible. 

Proven by who "to distort the facts"?  Isn't that what a Ministry of Truth if for?

 

Freedom of speech and press is messy.  It involves people selecting and interpreting facts in ways that others find objectionable.  It is part of marketing merchandise, investments, and politicians.  Giving the government to power to decide what is acceptable gives the government too much power.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Proven by who "to distort the facts"?  Isn't that what a Ministry of Truth if for?

 

Freedom of speech and press is messy.  It involves people selecting and interpreting facts in ways that others find objectionable.  It is part of marketing merchandise, investments, and politicians.  Giving the government to power to decide what is acceptable gives the government too much power.

Freedom of speech is one thing.. inciting people is an other.. Do you agree ? So lies made to incite people should be stopped yes or no ?

[heybruce]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

You remember correctly as I wanted the Shins punished for their corruption. Thankfully that happened, not so happy about the rest. 

 

Also wanted the reds that killed the yellows to be punished.. that happend too.. as long as YL was in power nobody was ever caught.. so yea there are upsides too to the crime against democracy.

 

Downsides too I agree.

So you lacked the patience to let the PTP be punished by the voters, and you supported replacing a corrupt elected government that could be removed by the voters with a corrupt military government that will stay in power as long as it wishes.  Got it.

 

Regarding reds that killed yellow, do you really need to be reminded that there was blood spilled by those opposing democracy as well as those supporting it?

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Freedom of speech is one thing.. inciting people is an other.. Do you agree ? So lies made to incite people should be stopped yes or no ?

Lies that damage individuals, slander and libel, and words designed to provoke violence should be illegal, with the individual cases tried in court. 

 

Inflammatory political speech, whether by right-wingers in Europe, Trump in the US, or redshirts with radio stations, should be allowed.

[robblok]

Just now, heybruce said:

So you lacked the patience to let the PTP be punished by the voters, and you supported replacing a corrupt elected government that could be removed by the voters with a corrupt military government that will stay in power as long as it wishes.  Got it.

 

Regarding reds that killed yellow, do you really need to be reminded that there was blood spilled by those opposing democracy as well as those supporting it?

Corruption should not be punished by voters it should be dished out by courts of law. I can still remember YL saying no corruption in the rice program and laughing at the Democrats that brought in rotten rice.. they were even threatened to be charged with theft. They were only doing their job. So no I had no faith in an clean investigation with her in power being able to hide evidence and influence things. Its just like I don't like what is happening now with Prawit and the Nacc.. I guess you also don't expect much of that. Same thing as long as they are in power they can influence things.

 

Then we come to the red yellow thing.. there were far more yellow casualties and every day new attacks with Charlem (you know the one that kept his killer son out of jail.. seems like a good fit with the PTP) saying they could not find anyone. I trust him as much as the junta doing a fair investigation to the watches of Prawit.

 

So you see IMHO it was needed to get YL out of power to go after the crimes of her goverment. Just voting would not be enough. Now you can argue all you want but that is the way i see it. I only did not anticipate the army staying in power they never did that before .

[robblok]

Just now, heybruce said:

Lies that damage individuals, slander and libel, and words designed to provoke violence should be illegal, with the individual cases tried in court. 

 

Inflammatory political speech, whether by right-wingers in Europe, Trump in the US, or redshirts with radio stations, should be allowed.

Then you and i differ here.. I don't agree with inflammatory political speech (if its not based on true facts if its based on lies it should not be allowed). Inflaming people to commit crimes kill their opponents that is something I can't live with. That is exactly what those red terrorists did. A lot of all based on lies and incited by their leaders. 

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

Corruption should not be punished by voters it should be dished out by courts of law. I can still remember YL saying no corruption in the rice program and laughing at the Democrats that brought in rotten rice.. they were even threatened to be charged with theft. They were only doing their job. So no I had no faith in an clean investigation with her in power being able to hide evidence and influence things. Its just like I don't like what is happening now with Prawit and the Nacc.. I guess you also don't expect much of that. Same thing as long as they are in power they can influence things.

 

Then we come to the red yellow thing.. there were far more yellow casualties and every day new attacks with Charlem (you know the one that kept his killer son out of jail.. seems like a good fit with the PTP) saying they could not find anyone. I trust him as much as the junta doing a fair investigation to the watches of Prawit.

 

So you see IMHO it was needed to get YL out of power to go after the crimes of her goverment. Just voting would not be enough. Now you can argue all you want but that is the way i see it. I only did not anticipate the army staying in power they never did that before .

So you think it was a good thing to let a notoriously corrupt military, one that was participating in people smuggling and slavery at the time, overthrow democracy because you didn't have confidence in the courts to properly deal with the rice program.  Got it. 

 

You also restrict your memory of violence to a narrow period of time when there may have been more anti-democracy casualties than pro-democracy casualties.  Historically the reverse has been true. 

 

In general, you support quick fixes, will approve of a deal with the devil to get them, and give no thought to the long term consequences.

[Ossy]

4 hours ago, YetAnother said:

“There’s no such thing as Thai-style democracy. It’s either democracy or it’s not,” he said.

 

4 hours ago, YetAnother said:

agreed

More 'agrees' here. Student Parit sounds like he's on 'our' side . . . nice to hear, coming from a Thai! He'll grow into a potential leader if he's not careful and the inscription that Prayut's already had carved on the big chair will be easy to bodge. Yes, there's another reason to be cheerful.

 

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, heybruce said:

So you think it was a good thing to let a notoriously corrupt military, one that was participating in people smuggling and slavery at the time, overthrow democracy because you didn't have confidence in the courts to properly deal with the rice program.  Got it. 

 

You also restrict your memory of violence to a narrow period of time when there may have been more anti-democracy casualties than pro-democracy casualties.  Historically the reverse has been true. 

 

In general, you support quick fixes, will approve of a deal with the devil to get them, and give no thought to the long term consequences.

I would not call them anti democracy casualties.. they were anti corruption anti Thaksin amnesty victims. 

 

The quick fixes worked at least.. otherwise YL would have gotten of free for her part in the corruption. Proven in a court of law no less. 

 

The fact remains (for every goverment ... army democrats PTP) corruption investigations during their time in power never yield results and are constantly worked against. See YL and her there is no corruption in the rice program. 30 billion.. no corruption....  and now Prawit and the NACC anyone thinking either of those would be convicted during their supporters in power does not understand Thailand at all. 

 

Then Charlem, who did not even investigate all those deaths and let them happend (I even think he had a hand in them but can't prove it). The terrorists would have gotten off because as long as he was in power nothing would have happend.

 

Nope quick fixes are not nice but sometimes they are needed. Again I had not anticipated on the junta staying in power this long. Historically that did not happen.

[heybruce]

8 minutes ago, robblok said:

I would not call them anti democracy casualties.. they were anti corruption anti Thaksin amnesty victims. 

 

The quick fixes worked at least.. otherwise YL would have gotten of free for her part in the corruption. Proven in a court of law no less. 

 

The fact remains (for every goverment ... army democrats PTP) corruption investigations during their time in power never yield results and are constantly worked against. See YL and her there is no corruption in the rice program. 30 billion.. no corruption....  and now Prawit and the NACC anyone thinking either of those would be convicted during their supporters in power does not understand Thailand at all. 

 

Then Charlem, who did not even investigate all those deaths and let them happend (I even think he had a hand in them but can't prove it). The terrorists would have gotten off because as long as he was in power nothing would have happend.

 

Nope quick fixes are not nice but sometimes they are needed. Again I had not anticipated on the junta staying in power this long. Historically that did not happen.

Historically elected Prime Ministers do not finish their term in elected office.  Historically the military has not allowed two consecutive national elections.  If you did not see the coup as part of a historical pattern of the military subverting democracy and protecting its interests, you were not paying attention.

 

Justice, no matter how imperfect and slow, must be delivered by the courts, not by military coup.  Historically, military coups do not provide justice, especially to the military.

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Historically elected Prime Ministers do not finish their term in elected office.  Historically the military has not allowed two consecutive national elections.  If you did not see the coup as part of a historical pattern of the military subverting democracy and protecting its interests, you were not paying attention.

 

Justice, no matter how imperfect and slow, must be delivered by the courts, not by military coup.  Historically, military coups do not provide justice, especially to the military.

Historically coups dont last this long.. why can you claim rights on history and I cant.. 

 

If the coup had lasted shortly like it does historically and like everyone expected it would have been perfect justice.

 

Besides, the PTP would probably have won again and justice would never been served.

 

Its a fact that governments in  power always shield their members from investigation. YL did it saying she had investigated and there was no corruption, Prawit is getting protected.. in watchgate. Its the same always. We have to wait till people are totally gone and powerless for justice. Sometimes that does not even happen. So i had little fait in it given that the next government would have been PTP again and the crimes would have been buried.

[Odysseus123]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

Historically coups dont last this long.. why can you claim rights on history and I cant.. 

 

If the coup had lasted shortly like it does historically and like everyone expected it would have been perfect justice.

 

Besides, the PTP would probably have won again and justice would never been served.

 

Its a fact that governments in  power always shield their members from investigation. YL did it saying she had investigated and there was no corruption, Prawit is getting protected.. in watchgate. Its the same always. We have to wait till people are totally gone and powerless for justice. Sometimes that does not even happen. So i had little fait in it given that the next government would have been PTP again and the crimes would have been buried.

You can just envisage early morning roll call in the shill factory-somewhere east of Omsk (but west of Tomsk)..

 

Ladies,gentlemen and tovaraschii..

 

Group 1 will comment on Trump..

Group 2 will handle Brexit..

Group 3 will do global warming...and Muslims..

..and  group 4..

 

"Oh no ..not Thailand and junta hugging again!"

Edited January 17, 2018 by Odysseus123

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Historically coups dont last this long.. why can you claim rights on history and I cant.. 

 

If the coup had lasted shortly like it does historically and like everyone expected it would have been perfect justice.

 

Besides, the PTP would probably have won again and justice would never been served.

 

Its a fact that governments in  power always shield their members from investigation. YL did it saying she had investigated and there was no corruption, Prawit is getting protected.. in watchgate. Its the same always. We have to wait till people are totally gone and powerless for justice. Sometimes that does not even happen. So i had little fait in it given that the next government would have been PTP again and the crimes would have been buried.

Some coups have been long, some have been short, all have subverted democracy. 

 

Think about what you are posting; justice by military coup is far from perfect.

 

Whether the PTP won or lost, it would have been the choice of the Thai voters, as it should have been.

 

Elected government try to shield their own from investigation, but in Thailand military governments shield themselves from justice forever.

 

Face it, you supported the wrong side.  No doubt you and many others will support the wrong side the next time democracy is temporarily allowed then subverted.  Quick fixes are so tempting.

[metisdead]

Posts and replies containing comments in violation of the following have been removed:

 

 

[Media1]

Just another failed coup leader using brainwash tactics on peasants willing to listen.

He won't win.any election.

[Media1]

9 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Well said.

 

It is self-serving nonsense and nothing more.

 

pure nonsense and laughable 

[baboon]

3 hours ago, Get Real said:

Easy translated into a perfectly understandable concept: Thai-styled democracy = No democracy.

 

Why, why, do they always have to write so long articles? Why in the worl do they need a political scientist from Thammasat University to explain this so complicated?

 

Life is good when you have the gift of speech, and can shorten about 500-600 words into a complete and easy to understand sentence only combined of 5 words.

"Why, why, do they always have to write so long articles? Why in the worl do they need a political scientist from Thammasat University to explain this so complicated?"

 

Perhaps the writers are comissioned to write a piece of a certain length, so they have to pad it out to fill their word quota.

[robblok]

29 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Some coups have been long, some have been short, all have subverted democracy. 

 

Think about what you are posting; justice by military coup is far from perfect.

 

Whether the PTP won or lost, it would have been the choice of the Thai voters, as it should have been.

 

Elected government try to shield their own from investigation, but in Thailand military governments shield themselves from justice forever.

 

Face it, you supported the wrong side.  No doubt you and many others will support the wrong side the next time democracy is temporarily allowed then subverted.  Quick fixes are so tempting.

Disagree.. 

 

But yes of course you would have gladly seen YL and the red killers escape justice. Small price to pay for democracy .. I don't think so by letting people of your corrupting democracy. So that would be wrong too.Face it... you just want to see YL and her minions go free.  Your not pro democracy.. your pro Shins. People who support democracy would never accepted the corruption crimes of a goverment not to be punished and accept a vote as a blanket do what you want card. That is what Thaksin thinks.. i got voted in i can do what i want. That is not democracy.

 

Historically here in Thailand the last few coups were short, no reason to have expected otherwise this time.

 

 

 

 

[Media1]

17 minutes ago, baboon said:

"Why, why, do they always have to write so long articles? Why in the worl do they need a political scientist from Thammasat University to explain this so complicated?"

 

Perhaps the writers are comissioned to write a piece of a certain length, so they have to pad it out to fill their word quota.

Fair summary

[Eric Loh]

16 minutes ago, robblok said:

Historically here in Thailand the last few coups were short, no reason to have expected otherwise this time.

Rob, number of coups stand at 12 successful coups and the post coup military governments were longer than all elected governments combined. Not short by any measure. 

[Odysseus123]

Just now, Media1 said:

Fair summary

Absolutely.Tho' of course Occam's Razor would indicate that that they had not moved their bowels for a very long time.I suggest mid 1930's but other posters might not agree...

[heybruce]

28 minutes ago, robblok said:

Disagree.. 

 

But yes of course you would have gladly seen YL and the red killers escape justice. Small price to pay for democracy .. I don't think so by letting people of your corrupting democracy. So that would be wrong too.Face it... you just want to see YL and her minions go free.  Your not pro democracy.. your pro Shins. People who support democracy would never accepted the corruption crimes of a goverment not to be punished and accept a vote as a blanket do what you want card. That is what Thaksin thinks.. i got voted in i can do what i want. That is not democracy.

 

Historically here in Thailand the last few coups were short, no reason to have expected otherwise this time.

You've run out of arguments and are resorting to the old "us or them" defense--anyone who is opposed to military rule must be pro-Shinawatra.  I assume that in Wiemar Germany you would have adopted the position "If you aren't Nazi you must be communist."

 

I was never pro-Shinawatra or in favor of any party.  I was in favor of letting the Thai people choose their leaders, and I have always been opposed to military rule.  I never saw democracy as a quick fix to Thailand's problems, but as the only form of government that gives Thailand hope of a reasonable future for all Thais, not just the rich.

 

You keep hiding behind "But, but, but...the last couple of military governments were short, so I thought it would be ok."  Military coups to overthrow democracy are never acceptable.  Anyone who supports democracy knows that, and also knows that Thailand's history of election-coup-election-coup are what is preventing democracy from becoming established.

Edited January 17, 2018 by heybruce

[Media1]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

You've run out of arguments and are resorting to the old "us or them" defense--anyone who is opposed to military rule must be pro-Shinawatra.  I was never pro-Shinawatra or in favor of any party.  I was in favor of letting the Thai people choose their leaders, and I have always been opposed to military rule.  I never saw democracy as a quick fix to Thailand's problems, but as the only form of government that gives Thailand hope of a reasonable future for all Thais, not just the rich.

 

You keep hiding behind "But, but, but...the last couple of military governments were short, so I thought it would be ok."  Military coups to overthrow democracy are never acceptable.  Anyone who supports democracy knows that, and also knows that Thailand's history of election-coup-election-coup are what is preventing democracy from becoming established.

Any soldier that attempts this is any other country is jailed. This is s crime against a nation. Especially when you did not follow through on the very obvious multi millionaire government employ audits reforms and jail sentences. This means you are are also corrupt and your coup was for personal gains simple.

There is no excuses sorry !

[Odysseus123]

4 minutes ago, heybruce said:

You've run out of arguments and are resorting to the old "us or them" defense--anyone who is opposed to military rule must be pro-Shinawatra.  I assume that in Wiemar Germany you would have adopted the position "If you aren't Nazi you must be communist."

 

I was never pro-Shinawatra or in favor of any party.  I was in favor of letting the Thai people choose their leaders, and I have always been opposed to military rule.  I never saw democracy as a quick fix to Thailand's problems, but as the only form of government that gives Thailand hope of a reasonable future for all Thais, not just the rich.

 

You keep hiding behind "But, but, but...the last couple of military governments were short, so I thought it would be ok."  Military coups to overthrow democracy are never acceptable.  Anyone who supports democracy knows that, and also knows that Thailand's history of election-coup-election-coup are what is preventing democracy from becoming established.

The guy is a shill.Don't you understand that?

[Rimmer]

A flame/slur has been removed also a quoted reply

[robblok]

34 minutes ago, heybruce said:

You've run out of arguments and are resorting to the old "us or them" defense--anyone who is opposed to military rule must be pro-Shinawatra.  I assume that in Wiemar Germany you would have adopted the position "If you aren't Nazi you must be communist."

 

I was never pro-Shinawatra or in favor of any party.  I was in favor of letting the Thai people choose their leaders, and I have always been opposed to military rule.  I never saw democracy as a quick fix to Thailand's problems, but as the only form of government that gives Thailand hope of a reasonable future for all Thais, not just the rich.

 

You keep hiding behind "But, but, but...the last couple of military governments were short, so I thought it would be ok."  Military coups to overthrow democracy are never acceptable.  Anyone who supports democracy knows that, and also knows that Thailand's history of election-coup-election-coup are what is preventing democracy from becoming established.

I feel getting away with corruption is never acceptable.. not for YL Her bunch in the rice program.. and not for Prawit with his watches. Guess what as long as the junta is in power Prawit would be untouchable and YL and her minions would be untouchable during PTP reign. 

 

You value democracy.. i value the fight against corruption more. Its all about priorities. I feel the fight against corruption is more important then protecting a far from perfect democracy. If you stamp out corruption you get better governments. 

[robblok]

31 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

The guy is a shill.Don't you understand that?

 

I don't know what you are.. but you can't debate without name calling. 

[robblok]

47 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Rob, number of coups stand at 12 successful coups and the post coup military governments were longer than all elected governments combined. Not short by any measure. 

I am talking about the coups i experienced while being here.. the recent ones been short. I had no reason to expect otherwise.