Practical limit to number of METVs issued

[bscott]

I'm coming to the end of my 2nd 6 month METV visa here in Thailand. I got them both from the Hull Consulate in the UK. Both times I paid up and submitted the documents and got the visa issued without any trouble.

 

I've asked the consulate if there's a limit on number of these visas one can get successively, they told me there is no official limit, however I've had a few raised eyebrows and questions at immigration the last couple of entries due to having so many Thai immigration stamps.

 

I'm concerned my next application may be denied or even worse approved but then denied at immigration.

 

Has anybody else had trouble taking successive METVS? Have you been denied entry? Or also interested in success stories, has anybody had more than 2 without trouble?

[JackThompson]

As to Hull, I'd go by what they say.  As to entering Thai immigration, there are several points / strategies:

• If entering by land, no problem as long as avoiding Poipet/Aranyaprathet.  You might be asked to show 20K Baht cash if coming from Malaysia or at Ranong - but no reports of this elsewhere.  You can use domestic-air (no immigration checkpoint) from the nearest Thai airport to get to your destination in the country.
• If entering by air, this is more dangerous, since they have a bad reputation for not liking long-term Tourist Visa use, and because being denied entry in an airport means detention plus purchasing a last-minute flight back where you came from.  Definitely have 20K Baht to show, plus be ready with evidence you are independently-financed, and Do Not Need to work in Thailand.  The longer you stay out before re-entering, the better, as far as airport-immigration is concerned.  We don't have bad reports from Chang Mai airport for Tourist Visa users, so if you must fly in, maybe try that as your point of entry (1st Thai stop), then use domestic air from there.

4 hours ago, bscott said:

Has anybody else had trouble taking successive METVS? Have you been denied entry? Or also interested in success stories, has anybody had more than 2 without trouble?

I recall one denied entry reported here for not having 20K Baht to show - others on SETVs.  Yes, people have reported using 2+ METVs.

[edwardandtubs]

London to Kuala Lumpur and then the train up to Hat Yai is an option if you want to be safe. Then AirAsia to Bangkok. 

[elviajero]

The Hull consulate exists to make money from issueing visas so they will probably keep insuring them unless an “official limit” is imposed. They want your money.

 

Any issues will be entering Thailand. It’s highly unlikely you’d be denied entry, but anyone staying long term as a ‘tourist’ should expect to be questioned about what they do in Thailand.

[BritTim]

Issuing of the METV visa, and continuing to live in Thailand long term on tourist entries are two separate matters. Further, policies on issuing visas can and do vary depending on where you are applying. In the UK, there appears to be no current limit on the number of back-to-back tourist visas they will give you. Thai immigration has no right to deny you entry on a tourist visa (even if you have entered many times before) unless you fall into one of the categories listed in Section 12 of the Immigration Act. However, a small minority of immigration officials disagree with the law as written. These officials may try to find a justification to deny you entry, usually for one of the following "reasons"

• "Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom" or "Having no money or bond as prescribed by the Minister under him". You can protect yourself by having 20,000 baht equivalent in cash or travelers' checks on you when entering. It could also be valuable to have documentation showing foreign sources of funds sufficient for an extended stay.
• "Having entered into the Kingdom to take occupation as a laborer or to take employment by using physical without skills training or to work in violation of the Ministerial Regulations". If the official believes you are entering, for instance, to teach or work as a dive master without a work permit, they might try to deny you entry. This is most likely to happen to someone who is rather young, probably in their twenties. Showing that you either travel around Thailand during your visits, or have other convincing reasons for spending a lot of time here ought to satisfy them, hopefully.

As I wrote above, only a small minority of officials are looking for a reason to deny you entry. Most likely, you will not have any problem. 

[tryasimight]

9 hours ago, BritTim said:

Issuing of the METV visa, and continuing to live in Thailand long term on tourist entries are two separate matters. Further, policies on issuing visas can and do vary depending on where you are applying. In the UK, there appears to be no current limit on the number of back-to-back tourist visas they will give you. Thai immigration has no right to deny you entry on a tourist visa (even if you have entered many times before) unless you fall into one of the categories listed in Section 12 of the Immigration Act. However, a small minority of immigration officials disagree with the law as written. These officials may try to find a justification to deny you entry, usually for one of the following "reasons"

• "Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom" or "Having no money or bond as prescribed by the Minister under him". You can protect yourself by having 20,000 baht equivalent in cash or travelers' checks on you when entering. It could also be valuable to have documentation showing foreign sources of funds sufficient for an extended stay.
• "Having entered into the Kingdom to take occupation as a laborer or to take employment by using physical without skills training or to work in violation of the Ministerial Regulations". If the official believes you are entering, for instance, to teach or work as a dive master without a work permit, they might try to deny you entry. This is most likely to happen to someone who is rather young, probably in their twenties. Showing that you either travel around Thailand during your visits, or have other convincing reasons for spending a lot of time here ought to satisfy them, hopefully.

As I wrote above, only a small minority of officials are looking for a reason to deny you entry. Most likely, you will not have any problem. 

Thai immigration ( or any countries immigration) has every right to refuse entry regardless of any visa.  If they don't want you in..... You won't get in. 

[mstevens]

I wonder if it is not the visas being issued (at consulates / embassies) that could become a problem, but questioning by Immigration as to why you're essentially residing in Thailand on tourist visas.  Your post indicates Immigration is more concerned about the number of entries in to the country than the number of visas issued in your passport.  I asked at both the Thai consulate in Auckland and the Thai embassy in Wellington about limits on multiple-entry visas and they both responded there are no limits and it simply comes down to meeting the criteria (and I asked as a non New Zealander, but resident in New Zealand.)

 

With all of this in mind, I'd recommend you have an explanation to satisfy Immigration officers who may ask about your travel history.  Explaining that you have a local lady friend seems to be accepted and also having proof of funds to show the officer that you're not working on a tourist visa is always a good idea.  It goes without saying that you should always be nicely presented and polite when passing through border control, especially if you have the sort of travel history that might cause the officers to pull you aside.

[BritTim]

4 hours ago, tryasimight said:

Thai immigration ( or any countries immigration) has every right to refuse entry regardless of any visa.  If they don't want you in..... You won't get in. 

I do not know why I bother to respond to this. I know from experience that such claims are always made by people who believe Thai immigration law must be the same as the law of most other countries. However, for the benefit of those willing to base their views on facts rather than preconceptions ...

The grounds under which people may be denied entry to Thailand are clearly laid out in the Thailand Immigration Act, most recently updated in 1979. I suggest those who really want to know the rules read one of several good English translations available online. It only takes a few hours. The most important points are

• All the reasons under which entry can be denied are listed in Section 12;
• Most of the reasons given are fairly clear, but Section 12 (11) has this: "Being prohibited from entering the Kingdom by the Minister under Section 16;".  Thus, this is important and needs further discussion:

  Quote

  Section 16. If, in the interests of the country or for reason of public order, good morals or culture, or for the happiness of the people, the Minister considers that any alien or group of aliens should not be permitted to enter the Kingdom, the Minister shall have power to not permit such alien or group of aliens to enter the Kingdom. 

  The Minister has indicated (back in 2014) that people using visa exempt entries as a means to stay long term in Thailand should be denied entry. This directive remains in force, although the Prime Minister  almost immediately after the policy was introduced indicated that it "should be applied flexibly". This gives immigration officials broad discretion to deny entry to those trying to enter visa exempt many times.
• No one except the Minister is allowed to deny entry for reasons other than those listed in Section 12.

The rule of law can be shaky in Thailand, but immigration officials cannot legally just decide to deny people entry to Thailand "because they do not want them in". 

[bscott]

As always the replies here have been incredibly useful and enlightening. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to reply!

[elviajero]

On 18/01/2018 at 5:18 PM, BritTim said:

... Thai immigration has no right to deny you entry on a tourist visa (even if you have entered many times before) unless you fall into one of the categories listed in Section 12 of the Immigration Act. However, a small minority of immigration officials disagree with the law as written. ...

 

As I wrote above, only a small minority of officials are looking for a reason to deny you entry. Most likely, you will not have any problem. 

It is every immigration officers job and purpose to police who gets in and who doesn't. Every single one of them is looking for reasons to deny entry. 

 

There are set reasons within the immigration act that IO's can apply to deny entry, but the discretionary powers come from section 16. Different border points throughout the country have different challenges and enforce the border point accordingly. As long as the IO's are enforcing rules given by TIB/Minister they are acting lawfully.

 

You are not privy to every order or rule that IO's are given via the TIB/Minister, and you clearly don't understand the function of an immigration officer.

 

On 19/01/2018 at 7:45 AM, BritTim said:

No one except the Minister is allowed to deny entry for reasons other than those listed in Section 12.

I'm sure you didn't mean what you wrote. The minister gives the power to the Immigration officers who can deny entry based on that power. The minister can override a denied entry, but if an IO wants to deny you entry they will find a lawful way.

 

 

[BritTim]

3 hours ago, elviajero said:

You are not privy to every order or rule that IO's are given via the TIB/Minister, and you clearly don't understand the function of an immigration officer.

 

On 1/19/2018 at 2:45 PM, BritTim said:

No one except the Minister is allowed to deny entry for reasons other than those listed in Section 12.

I'm sure you didn't mean what you wrote. The minister gives the power to the Immigration officers who can deny entry based on that power. The minister can override a denied entry, but if an IO wants to deny you entry they will find a lawful way.

Well, let us look at the proposition that the Minister (contrary to the clear intentions of the 1979 Immigration Act) has issued a secret order that immigration officials above a certain rank should be able to use their discretion to arbitrarily deny entry. In that case, surely the reason given for denied entry should cite Section 12 (11) of the Act. In practice, the reasons given seem always to be Section 12 (2), Section 12 (3) or Section 12 (9). Sometimes, of course, the denial is completely legitimate. I still believe that, in rare cases, travelers are denied entry for other reasons, but the immigration official uses (2), (3) and/or (9) of Section 12, without evidence, as a fig leaf to justify the denial. I am not even citing the practice at a very few border crossings where officials may arbitrarily deny entry without giving any reason at all.

 

I absolutely stand by my statement that immigration officials are only supposed to deny entry under Section 12 of the Act, which incorporates individuals and groups identified by the Minister under Section 16. Based on public orders issued in 2014 (and well publicized in advance of their implementation) officials are empowered to deny entry to those using back-to-back visa exempt entries as a means of staying long term in Thailand. The Prime Minister instructed them to apply this power flexibly, so the officials have complete discretion in those cases. I do not believe similar orders giving discretion apply to tourist visas or non immigrant visas.