Clarification Needed

[ronw]

I have just been re-reading the rules for applying for extensions on this site...

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/2notice/rtp606EN.pdf

and i am somewhat puzzled..... I am not a lawyer, but as I read the terms...it seems to me that the regulations are quite clear....

1 . If applying through having a child.....then NO proof of income is needed.

2 . If applying to support a parent....the PARENT must be over 50 years of age....and NO proof of income needed

3 . Only if applying as a spouse is proof of income required....

It would seem to me that, an applicant who applies as a PARENT of a Thai child,has no necessity to be over 50 years of age....the said 50 years refers only to a THAI PARENT...and if this was so then it would be very helpful for anyone under 50 who wished to apply for an extension..

Any other thoughts on this?

[ronw]

have just posted this, then saw the post by fatboyslim....who apparently reads the regulations the same way which I do...I think it necessary to get an official ruling on this..as it may be very useful to many parents of thai children who at the moment cannot apply as they are under 50....

[lopburi3]

What are you reading exactly? In my reading the clause is clearly 7.17 (family member of a Thai) and the requirement is spelled out as below:

(5) In the case of a parent, the said

person must be 50 years of age

or over;

[fat boy slim]

You must have read my mind. I too have been confused by reports on this forum that you need to be over 50. I read it the same way as you, that if you are supporting a thai's parents, then they have to be over 50.

The reason I say this, is that I just received yesterday my second one year visa for looking after my Thai child. I was told on this forum that I would get one because I had one last year and that I had "grand father rights". Sorry to confuse things with the grand father bit.

When I asked the immigration officer about being over fifty to look after a child, he looked at me as if I was from the loony bin and said he had never heard of this.

So it looks like we read it right and not like the poster who said you have to be over fifty. (i'm still trying to find it.)

Any way, sorted for another year.

By the way he wanted to see the money in the bank three months before, and if I did not misunderstand him, he said he wanted to see it when I report in three months time. Either that or he said can I have a bottle of Johnny red please. Sorry but my Thai is not that good.

[ronw]

What are you reading exactly? In my reading the clause is clearly 7.17 (family member of a Thai) and the requirement is spelled out as below:

(5) In the case of a parent, the said

person must be 50 years of age

or over;

Surely the word PARENT refers to supporting a Thai parent...and not to being the parent of a thai child .?

which is why some clarification is needed.....it does not affect my application....but may be very important for others to get this settled.

[fat boy slim]

I read the same clause as you and understood it the same wayas you did. All I was saying is that a couple of months ago posters on this forum read it the wrong way, and I took what they said as gospel, prior to reading it myself.

[lopburi3]

By the way he wanted to see the money in the bank three months before

If you were reading the post right would the above be a requirement? And where exactly do you find it listed on the new regulations?

This is a serious issue and it is not our opinions that have been reported - but what people have been informed by immigration. There is currently no provision except for those grandfathered under the old rules. We will be most happy to report otherwise at such time as there is any indication a different interpretation is being allowed.

[Cyberstar]

What are you reading exactly? In my reading the clause is clearly 7.17 (family member of a Thai) and the requirement is spelled out as below:

(5) In the case of a parent, the said

person must be 50 years of age

or over;

Surely the word PARENT refers to supporting a Thai parent...and not to being the parent of a thai child .?

which is why some clarification is needed.....it does not affect my application....but may be very important for others to get this settled.

Surely it does not!

I think one should read the whole context - or at least both column 1 and 2 of the form linked to earlier in this thread.

Column 1 lists the different cases of valid grounds for a foreigner to apply for an extensions. 7.17, in particular, adresses: "In the case of a family member of a Thai ...". Since Thai family members of Thais don't need visas the term 'family member' obviously refers to a foreigner.

Column 2 lists three (sub)cases of family relationsship valid for an application. Why on earth should the term 'parent' in: "(5) In the case of a parent ..." all of a sudden refer to anything but the foreigner refered to in the mainclause?

[ronw]

Column 2 lists three (sub)cases of family relationsship valid for an application. Why on earth should the term 'parent' in: "(5) In the case of a parent ..." all of a sudden refer to anything but the foreigner refered to in the mainclause?

The scenario for this is, IMHO, in the case of a alien who marries a Thai,and wishes to support the PARENT of said Thai person, then support of the parent gives grounds for application .

It seems somewhat ludicrous that only applicants who are parents and who are over 50 years of age can apply for an extension.

I agree that the reading of the regulations is a tad obscure....BUT...can a person apply to support a PARENT? If so, then this should be grounds to get an extension..

does anyone know if supporting a Thai parent is a valid reason?

Edited January 19, 2007 by ronw

[lopburi3]

If you had a Thai parent you would be Thai and not need a visa.

[Cyberstar]

The scenario for this is, IMHO, in the case of a alien who marries a Thai,and wishes to support the PARENT of said Thai person, then support of the parent gives grounds for application .

If one is married to a Thai, one has a very valid ground for an extension ... It seems rather farfetched that support of somebody elses parents should be considered a valid reason for an extension according to 7.17, why not support of somebody elses uncles and nephews while we're at it?

...can a person apply to support a PARENT? If so, then this should be grounds to get an extension..

does anyone know if supporting a Thai parent is a valid reason?

The very concept of SUPPORTt has been completely left out in the new regulations. 17.7 (4) talks about unmarried foreign children under 20 than can apply for an extension to LIVE with the parents. If a foreign child is married or over 20 he/she needs other grounds.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Cyberstar

[Sunbelt Asia]

If you apply for the first time after Oct 1st 2006

The only extension of stay based on having a Thai child for one year is if you are over 50 years old.

You however can get an extension of stay for 60 days to visit your child, if you are under 50 years old.

In either case, no money is required in the bank or any income per month.

If you had a extension of stay based on support of a Thai Child before Oct 1st 2006

you can get an extension of stay based on support for one year. It does not matter the age of the parent.

You need 400,000 Baht in the bank, or income of 40,000 Baht per month.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[gpt]

If you apply for the first time after Oct 1st 2006

The only extension of stay based on having a Thai child for one year is if you are over 50 years old.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Where in the regulations does it state this? Let's go with your translation of the regulations - I won't comment on your rather obvious mistake in 7/17 (4)

Conditions (1) and (2) and joined with 'and' which means that both conditions must be met. I will leave the 'and' between (2) and (3) for a moment. Conditions (3) to (5) are joined with 'or' which signifies that only one of the conditions must be met. So to qualify, you must meet conditions 1 & 2 plus one of the following 3.

I would agree with you if (4) ended with 'and' and (5) started with 'If you are the mother or father of the child then you shall not be younger than 50 years of age.

Edited January 19, 2007 by gpt

[Sunbelt Asia]

If you apply for the first time after Oct 1st 2006

The only extension of stay based on having a Thai child for one year is if you are over 50 years old.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Where in the regulations does it state this? Let's go with your translation of the regulations - I won't comment on your rather obvious mistake in 7/17 (4)

Conditions (1) and (2) and joined with 'and' which means that both conditions must be met. I will leave the 'and' between (2) and (3) for a moment. Conditions (3) to (5) are joined with 'or' which signifies that only one of the conditions must be met. So to qualify, you must meet conditions 1 & 2 plus one of the following 3.

I would agree with you if (4) ended with 'and' and (5) started with 'If you are the mother or father of the child then you shall not be younger than 50 years of age.

Reason of Necessary

7.17 In case of the foreign national is the member of the Thai national’s family (Only for Father, Mother, Husband or Wife, ordinary child, adopted child or the child of the marriage couple.)

Each time of permission shall be granted for the period not exceeding 1 year.

Consideration Criterions

(1) Foreigner obtains VISA for the temporary stay and

(2) There is any proof of the relationship and,

(3) In case of the marriage couple, the parties required to have both practical and legal relationship or,

(4) In case of the ordinary child, adopted child, child of the marriage couple, these person need to be single/never married, must be living as a part of the family, and shall not be older than 20 years old, or

(5) In case of Father or Mother, the said father or mother shall be not younger than 50 years old.

(6) In case of the applicant who is married to a Thai wife, one of them or both of them need to have the total annual income that is averaged out not less than 40,000 Baht per month. Except for the case that the said foreign national has entered Thailand before this Order is enforced and the foreign national has been permitted to stay in the Kingdom by the result of having married to a Thai wife, then if the applicant does not have the said income, then, the latest 3 months records of the account book of any Bank in Thailand with the account name of either or both parties need to have the amount of money not less than 400,000 Baht.

Conditions (1... visa) and Condition (2... proof) need to go with either Condition (3... marriage) or Condition (4... child under 20 years old) or Condition (5.... parent over 50 years old)

Only in the case if Condition (1...visa) and Condition (2...proof) with Condition (3...marriage) Then Condition (6....money) applies.

List of Required Documents

1. Application Form

2. Copy of the passport of the applicant

3. Copy of the proof of relationship such as marriage evidences, birth certificate, certificate of child adoption registration, copy of census registration, certificate of adopted child adoption registration, or other papers issued by the related official organization or government agencies.

4. The evidences of having Thai nationality of the marriage couple, father, mother, ordinary child, or adopted child such as ID Card, census registration, or other papers issued by the related official organization or government agencies.

5. According to the Criterion No. 6, the applicant is required to attach the certificate of having the savings in the bank account of any Bank in Thailand and copy of the bank account, or evidences of personal income of either party or both that shows the total income of both parties not less than 40,000 Baht per month, such as the evidence of the personal income tax filing and the receipt, evidence of being a pensioner, credentials of receiving the interest of the saving money, or the evidences of having other income from other related organizations.

Please Note: They do not talk about before Oct 1st 2006 for parents exempt based on support of a Thai child. Only for those parents however get the extension of stay based on support of a child.

Reason of Necessary

7.23 In case of entering for visiting a Thai wife / husband or child.

The permission shall be granted only one time with the granted period not exceeding 60 days.

Consideration Criterions

(1) Have evidence affirming the relationship and,

(2) In case of the marriage couple, the spouse shall have the both practical and legal relationship

List of Required Documents

1. Application form

2. Copy of applicant’s passport

3. Copy of census registration

4. Copy of the Thai national’s ID Card

5. Copy of marriage certificate or birth certificate

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Maestro]

Where in the regulations does it state this? Let's go with your translation of the regulations - I won't comment on your rather obvious mistake in 7/17 (4)

Conditions (1) and (2) and joined with 'and' which means that both conditions must be met. I will leave the 'and' between (2) and (3) for a moment. Conditions (3) to (5) are joined with 'or' which signifies that only one of the conditions must be met. So to qualify, you must meet conditions 1 & 2 plus one of the following 3.

I would agree with you if (4) ended with 'and' and (5) started with 'If you are the mother or father of the child then you shall not be younger than 50 years of age.

Sometimes, translations from Thai can be confusing and I was also confused when I first read 7.17(5)

In the left column, for “In case of the foreign national is...” read “If the applicant for extension is...”

In the middle column, for “In case of Father or Mother...” read “If the applicant is Father or Mother...”

So now you read the criteria of (1), (2) and (5) together: “The foreigner obtains a visa, and he/she must provide evidence of relationship of the Thai family member with whom he/she wishes to live, and if he/she is the father or mother of the Thai family member he/she (father/mother) must not be younger than 50 years”

Sadly for younger fathers, this is how it is.

--

Maestro

[gpt]

Sunbelt and Maestro, I believe that you are both wrong. 7/17 is about supporting a spouse, a child or a parent (of your Thai partner).

The Thai translation refers to 'the child of his/her spouse, Sunbelt put it differently - child of the marriage (sic) couple. What do you think 'child of his/her spouse' refers to? It does not refer to your child as this is already covered but to your partner's child from a previous relationship/marriage.

Again, following the Thai translation, conditions (1) & (6), the Thai wording is 'alien' when referring to the applicant. The word 'alien' is absent from (5)

You cannot get a visa on the grounds of supporting your Thai partner but if you are supporting their over 50 parent, then you can apply on these grounds.

[Cyberstar]

Sunbelt and Maestro, I believe that you are both wrong. 7/17 is about supporting a spouse, a child or a parent (of your Thai partner).

gpt... You're wrong already here - 7.17 isn't about supporting anyone. If it were - where are the support criteria and unavoidable mandatory documentation?

[roamer]

Care to clarify gpt ?

"The Thai translation refers to 'the child of his/her spouse, Sunbelt put it differently - child of the marriage (sic) couple. "

There is no Thai translation only an English translation of a Thai document.

[gpt]

Care to clarify gpt ?

"The Thai translation refers to 'the child of his/her spouse, Sunbelt put it differently - child of the marriage (sic) couple. "

There is no Thai translation only an English translation of a Thai document.

Sunbelt translation - Sunbelt's translatiom of Thai Police Order 606/2549

Thai translation - Immigration's translation of Thai Police Order 606/2549

[Maestro]

Sunbelt and Maestro, I believe that you are both wrong. 7/17 is about supporting a spouse, a child or a parent (of your Thai partner).

The Thai translation refers to 'the child of his/her spouse...What do you think 'child of his/her spouse' refers to?

There is an easy way for you to get an authoritative clarification on this: go to your immigration office and ask them.

I did exactly this – went to the Suan Phlu office in Bangkok – and do you know what they first told me? “7.17(5) applies only to unmarried, widowed or divorced fathers”. They were wrong, of course, and you, too, may get a wrong explanation from Immigration, but please do go and ask them, then report your experience here.

--

Maestro

[simon43]

The correct translation of 7/17 is whatever the immigration officer says is the correct translation at the time! I don't think logic or good translation skills enter into it!

Simon

[uncletom]

I just received my extension based upon support of a child the other day.

I never have had an extension before and here it is January 2007 already. I have only have had the non o

and then went and got another one. My last one was given for a single entry only.

Yes I think that no one is sure of the new regulations, but in the end what I do know, is that all the new

extensions will have the final say delivered from Bkk imm.. And these decisions will come directly from

your interview.. It may not seem like an interview but it really is. At one or two points of your time at imm, you will be seated with an official..A RANKING OFFICIAL. Maybe nothing is said or something is said, but all in all, from this, they are looking at you and drawing their conclusion. Yeah or Nay.

I really think that everone should look a little farther past the 7.17 crap and get to the last page. # 8 #9 #

10 # 11 # 12 and the one that really means anything # 13... Look at it closely. Sunbelts translation should be looked at closely.. Grandfathered, I beg to differ... But on a sense yes...

I HAD TO JUMP THROUGH SOME HOOPS, AND THEY WILL TELL YOU WHICH ONES TO JUMP THROUGH.

And yes, I have an ulcer from the ordeal too, but I made it..

It really is based on a case by case, their liking foreigners, having a good day or a bad day, or quite

frankly their impression of you and your situation...

I am under 50 and am not married too.....

Good luck to you people under 50, unmarried who have children that you love.. It can be done

Uncletom

[Maestro]

I just received my extension based upon support of a child the other day.

I never have had an extension before and here it is January 2007 already... look a little farther past the 7.17 crap... the one that really means anything # 13...I am under 50 and am not married too...

You are right to point to paragraph 13 of the National Police Order 606/2006. It gives Immigration the possibility to consider cases not covered by the other rules on an individual basis. I remember somebody else (Sunbelt?) mentioning it once before. The way I read it, applications under this clause can be made only until 30 September 2007 at the latest:

Provisional Section

13. Within 1 year from the enforcement date of this Order, for the case of the foreigner who has entered Thailand and has been granted to stay temporarily in the Kingdom of Thailand before this Order will be enforced and disqualifies to the criterions set forth on this Order, the Commander of the Immigration Bureau or the authorized officer shall be responsible to consider granting the permission, based on the necessity of the applicant, case by case.

--

Maestro

[keenok]

it makes no sense at all that the foreigner should be over 50. i read the rules as over 50 refering to the person being supported. pattaya immigrations site seems a bit easier to understand. seems they are interpreting it as the person being supported being over 50(which makes sense)http://pattaya-immigration.e-webonline.com...&groupid=19. i think the officers who are interpreting it as the foreigner needs to be over 50 are the ones that have got the wrong end of the stick. there will be dozens of interpretations no doubt

Edit by Maestro: made quoted URL a live link.

[Maestro]

i read the rules as over 50 refering to the person being supported. pattaya immigrations site seems a bit easier to understand.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.

The text on the web page you quote looks the same to me as the other English translations. It says, in essence, if the foreigner applying for the reason of wanting to live with a family member of Thai nationality and if this foreigner is a parent (of the Thai national he/she wants to live with) then this foreigner must be at least 50 years old.

Incidentally, there is no mention of “support” or “supporting” in this rule. For applications under 7.17(5), no evidence is required that the Thai child is supporting his/her foreign parent. It is about the foreign parent living with his Thai child. Whether the parent supports the child, the child supports the parent, or neither supports the other does not enter into the equation.

The Pattaya translation does seem a little more intelligible, though, because it uses “parent” instead of “father or mother”. (Apparently, the Thai language does not have a single word for “parent”, which explains the other English translations’ use of “father or mother”, a more literal translation from Thai)

--

Maestro

[gpt]

i read the rules as over 50 refering to the person being supported. pattaya immigrations site seems a bit easier to understand.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.

The text on the web page you quote looks the same to me as the other English translations. It says, in essence, if the foreigner applying for the reason of wanting to live with a family member of Thai nationality and if this foreigner is a parent (of the Thai national he/she wants to live with) then this foreigner must be at least 50 years old.

Incidentally, there is no mention of “support” or “supporting” in this rule. For applications under 7.17(5), no evidence is required that the Thai child is supporting his/her foreign parent. It is about the foreign parent living with his Thai child. Whether the parent supports the child, the child supports the parent, or neither supports the other does not enter into the equation.

The Pattaya translation does seem a little more intelligible, though, because it uses “parent” instead of “father or mother”. (Apparently, the Thai language does not have a single word for “parent”, which explains the other English translations’ use of “father or mother”, a more literal translation from Thai)

--

Maestro

Why would a Thai child supporting his/her foreign parent(s) need a visa?

Edited January 20, 2007 by gpt

[fat boy slim]

Why would you need to be over 50 to get a child support visa. It just doesn't make sense.

If you were over 50 it would be much easier and less hassle to apply for a retirement visa.

[roamer]

Care to clarify gpt ?

"The Thai translation refers to 'the child of his/her spouse, Sunbelt put it differently - child of the marriage (sic) couple. "

There is no Thai translation only an English translation of a Thai document.

Sunbelt translation - Sunbelt's translatiom of Thai Police Order 606/2549

Thai translation - Immigration's translation of Thai Police Order 606/2549

Precisely. And the only version of this that matters is Thai Police Order 606/2549 in its original language, Thai. I think its pretty far fetched to imagine the Thai govt introducing a new category that would allow almost anyone to remain in LOS at a time when they are clearly intent on doing otherwise.

I would like to think that your interpretation of an English interpretation of a Thai document was correct but I believe your clutching at straws....and interpreted straws at that.

Really hope I'm wrong.

[Lite Beer]

Why would you need to be over 50 to get a child support visa. It just doesn't make sense.

If you were over 50 it would be much easier and less hassle to apply for a retirement visa.

To get an extension to allow you to live with your child (not support) if you are over 50 you do not need to show any income or money in the bank.

[Cyberstar]

i read the rules as over 50 refering to the person being supported. pattaya immigrations site seems a bit easier to understand.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.

The text on the web page you quote looks the same to me as the other English translations. It says, in essence, if the foreigner applying for the reason of wanting to live with a family member of Thai nationality and if this foreigner is a parent (of the Thai national he/she wants to live with) then this foreigner must be at least 50 years old.

Incidentally, there is no mention of “support” or “supporting” in this rule. For applications under 7.17(5), no evidence is required that the Thai child is supporting his/her foreign parent. It is about the foreign parent living with his Thai child. Whether the parent supports the child, the child supports the parent, or neither supports the other does not enter into the equation.

The Pattaya translation does seem a little more intelligible, though, because it uses “parent” instead of “father or mother”. (Apparently, the Thai language does not have a single word for “parent”, which explains the other English translations’ use of “father or mother”, a more literal translation from Thai)

--

Maestro

Why would a Thai child supporting his/her foreign parent(s) need a visa?

Why do you ask that silly question?

Edited January 20, 2007 by Cyberstar