Bangkok Air Pollution

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Btw interestingly the Sharp FP-J30TA-B is not listed on online but is available in store for B3,390.  I'm having trouble figuring out the difference between that and the very similar Sharp FP-J30TA-A.  It's not the color.  The -B model can generate steam which I'm not sure the -A can (and I'm not sure why anyone would want steam unless maybe they live in a dry place unlike Thailand).

 

I thought the difference WAS the color.... The B version has a black top surface, while the A version has a blue top surface...

 

When I compare the two models on Sharp's TH specs website, other than the color, their listings are identical in every listed spec:

 

https://www.th.sharp/compare/product

 

I bought the slightly smaller capacity FP-F30TA-A, which works very well in our master bedroom. And both the F30 and J30 series units use the exact same HEPA filter.

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TerraplaneGuy]

18 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I thought the difference WAS the color.... The B version has a black top surface, while the A version has a blue top surface...

 

When I compare the two models on Sharp's TH specs website, other than the color, their listings are identical in every listed spec:

 

https://www.th.sharp/compare/product

 

I bought the slightly smaller capacity FP-F30TA-A, which works very well in our master bedroom. And both the F30 and J30 series units use the exact same HEPA filter.

 

Thanks, I was having trouble making the compare page work but got it now and you're right.  About the Toshiba CAF-H20 unit, you mentioned it tops out at 24 sqm but it seems the Sharp FP-J30TA tops out at 23 sqm so they seem about the same on that.  I know you're not endorsing products but do you see a reason to prefer one, other that the Sharp is now discounted to B3,390 which is B900 cheaper than the Toshiba (IF the Sharp is available:  the website seems to indicate it's now out of stock) whereas the Toshiba has the built-in monitor?

Edited October 26, 2019 by TerraplaneGuy
correct

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Thanks, I was having trouble making the compare page work but got it now and you're right.  About the Toshiba CAF-H20 unit, you mentioned it tops out at 24 sqm but it seems the Sharp FP-J30TA tops out at 23 sqm so they seem about the same on that.  I know you're not endorsing products but do you see a reason to prefer one, other that the Sharp is now discounted to B3,390 which is B900 cheaper than the Toshiba (IF the Sharp is available:  the website seems to indicate it's now out of stock) whereas the Toshiba has the built-in monitor?

 

Those were the two units/brands I ended up seriously considering before I bought my Sharp. I could have gone either way.

 

But the reason I ended up going with the Sharp unit was I got a good deal via a Shoppee seller, whereas the Toshiba online store was out of stock at the time... and they also seemed to have problems with assuring availability of their replacement HEPA filters. So those two factors in the end pushed me to Sharp.

 

Sharp also has issues with availability of replacement filters, but at least they do have a 3rd party vendor in BKK who sells them (when they have them in stock). So I stocked up by buying several HEPA filters when they had them, and now have stock enough to last 4-6 years if needed.

 

Thus far, by using an added carbon prefilter sheet with my Sharp unit, I'm up to 1-1/2 years now on the original HEPA filter that came with the unit. The carbon prefilter sheet I added catches a lot of gunk that makes it thru the built-in prefilter the Sharp unit has in its rear cover. And without my own added carbon filter, a lot of that gunk would have instead ended up on my HEPA filter.

 

Also, the Sharp units seem to be more widely available at retail that the Toshiba units, and the same Sharp units and filters are also used and sold in other SE Asian countries. So I'm hoping that will mean the units will be supported for a longer period of time.

 

.

Edited October 26, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TerraplaneGuy]

Further research only complicates things, of course.  I see that both the Sharp and the Toshiba have an ionizing feature.  The way they work apparently is to project the ions onto certain particles to chemically combine with them and make them fall to the floor and other surfaces.  But they can also cause ozone which is dangerous:  https://molekule.science/air-purifiers-ionic-ionizers-bad-or-good/       I found a few sites that claim the Sharp ionizing method (plasmacluster) does not emit any (or significant) ozone, for example:   https://www.allergytech.com/sharp_plasmacluster.htm

 

Haven't found any such reassurance for the Toshiba ionizing feature which seems to use a different technology.  I do suspect that the ozone produced even by the Toshiba would be considerably less than the notorious ionizing purifiers (like Ionic Breeze) that relied solely on that method (no HEPA filter) and which were pilloried by Consumer Reports.  But I don't know whether there's any ozone risk with the Toshiba.  

[MaxYakov]

What Is True HEPA Filter? HEPA Filter In-depth Explanation [link]

Extract from above linked article:

 

But how do you know one air purifier has the True HEPA filter? First, it must meet strict standards set by the U.S. Department of Energy. The True HEPA filter needs to remove 99.97% of all particles that have a size greater than or equal to 0.3 microns, as defined by the United States Department of Energy (DOE). You should search for the HEPA class in your air filter, which either follows the European Standard, or the MERV rating. Below are the given efficiency of these HEPA classes for airborne particles down to 0.3 microns, which follows the European Standard:

HEPA class	Efficiency
E10	85%
E11	95%
E12	99.5%
H13	99.97%
H14	99.975%
U15	99.9975%
U16	99.99975%
U17	99.9999%

Gratuitous Link - w/r to particle size (Germicidal Aspects, below):

HEPA Type VS True HEPA Filters Explained - A Fresher Home [link]

The Germicidal Aspects of Air [HEPA] Filters [link]

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Further research only complicates things, of course.  I see that both the Sharp and the Toshiba have an ionizing feature.  The way they work apparently is to project the ions onto certain particles to chemically combine with them and make them fall to the floor and other surfaces.  But they can also cause ozone which is dangerous:  https://molekule.science/air-purifiers-ionic-ionizers-bad-or-good/       I found a few sites that claim the Sharp ionizing method (plasmacluster) does not emit any (or significant) ozone, for example:   https://www.allergytech.com/sharp_plasmacluster.htm

 

Haven't found any such reassurance for the Toshiba ionizing feature which seems to use a different technology.  I do suspect that the ozone produced even by the Toshiba would be considerably less than the notorious ionizing purifiers (like Ionic Breeze) that relied solely on that method (no HEPA filter) and which were pilloried by Consumer Reports.  But I don't know whether there's any ozone risk with the Toshiba.  

 

I went thru the same ionizing/ozone concern issues when I was shopping as well. Read the same things as you mention above, including Sharp's claims that their Plasmacluster technology doesn't emit any significant amount of ozone. Whether that's true or not, I have no idea.

 

But, at least in the case of my Sharp unit, I don't have to worry about that, because the Plasmacluster technology feature it has is NOT an automatically functioning one, but rather, is controlled by an On/Off toggle switch on the control panel.

 

So, you can run the air purifier and it functions normally as a purifier, and leave the Plasmacluster switch turned off and non functioning all the same, if so desired.  That aspect resolved my concerns.

 

[TerraplaneGuy]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

....

 

So, you can run the air purifier and it functions normally as a purifier, and leave the Plasmacluster switch turned off and non functioning all the same, if so desired.  That aspect resolved my concerns.

 

That’s good to know.  Is the Sharp steam function also optional? I’m not sure whether it is part of the plasma cluster function or what exactly it’s supposed to do.   

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

36 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

That’s good to know.  Is the Sharp steam function also optional? I’m not sure whether it is part of the plasma cluster function or what exactly it’s supposed to do.   

 

I have no idea what the "steam" thing is you're talking about. I'm guessing, it's a bad translation of something from TH to EN... The Sharp air purifiers don't do anything about steam that I'm aware of.

 

[TerraplaneGuy]

On 10/25/2019 at 1:02 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

This is a good product, whether you get it from Aliexpress or somewhere on Lazada....

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32826759103.html

I just got this product (SNDWAY PM2.5 detector) and fired it up.  Seems to work.  My condo is showing around 20 μg/m³ today (still haven't bought a purifier but intend to soon).  That calculates to 68 AQI which is a  lower than the nearby stations on Airvisual and aqicn.org (85-95).  Not sure if that's because I'm up pretty high (24th floor) although they say that doesn't have a big effect, or the SNDWAY reads a bit low.  Anybody notice a tendency of the SNDWAY in one direction or the other?  BTW I'm not currently running aircon.

Edited October 29, 2019 by TerraplaneGuy

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

I just got this product (SNDWAY PM2.5 detector) and fired it up.  Seems to work.  My condo is showing around 20 μg/m³ today (still haven't bought a purifier but intend to soon).  That calculates to 68 AQI which is a  lower than the nearby stations on Airvisual and aqicn.org (85-95).  Not sure if that's because I'm up pretty high (24th floor) although they say that doesn't have a big effect, or the SNDWAY reads a bit low.  Anybody notice a tendency of the SNDWAY in one direction or the other?  BTW I'm not currently running aircon.

 

I have two at home, and their readings when in unpurified rooms usually pretty much mirror the settings of the official stations around where I live.

 

There's no calibration function available or needed on the Sndway 825 model, so it should work properly just by turning it on....

[TerraplaneGuy]

I understand humidity affects readings and not sure there’s a good way to factor that in.   I was just outside and got a 2.5 particle reading of 30 micrgm on the SNDWAY.  Coming into an office building lobby it dropped to 7!  Huge change.  I don’t see air purifiers but I do see humidity dropped on the SNDWAY from 75% to 59%. I wonder if that’s what accounts for the big reading drop.  

[lopburi3]

22 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Coming into an office building lobby it dropped to 7!

I suspect some of difference due to traffic (which often reason for higher readings at test locations than in more off road housing areas of Bangkok).  Then add the air conditioning filtering of the office building air.

[TerraplaneGuy]

Could be the Aircon in which case they must have quite a filter.  Don’t think it’s the traffic because earlier I compared the reading in my condo, which is just down the block, with no Aircon on.  Humidity and particle reading were similar to the street even though I’m 24 floors up and farther back from the street than this office lobby, and there’s a much better seal from outside air in my condo than this lobby.  I do think the lower lobby humidity (maybe resulting from the aircon) must be a factor.   

Edited October 29, 2019 by TerraplaneGuy

[edwardandtubs]

On 10/29/2019 at 4:04 PM, TerraplaneGuy said:

I understand humidity affects readings and not sure there’s a good way to factor that in.   I was just outside and got a 2.5 particle reading of 30 micrgm on the SNDWAY.  Coming into an office building lobby it dropped to 7!  Huge change.  I don’t see air purifiers but I do see humidity dropped on the SNDWAY from 75% to 59%. I wonder if that’s what accounts for the big reading drop.  

There was a discussion about this earlier in the thread and yes the Plantower sensor that the Sndway uses has been shown in one research paper to give excessively high readings in humid environments. 

[edwardandtubs]

Has anyone bought a box of 3M 9105 masks from Lazada and then authenticated them as genuine on the 3M website here:

 

https://safeguard.3m.com/Guest#/Validation

 

Given that the official Lazada 3M store is out of stock and has been for ages, I suspect those other shops are all selling fakes. 

 

[MaxYakov]

The "Happy and Healthy Bike Lane (Rest Area 1)" in Samut Prakan maybe be Happy, but not so Healthy according to AirVisual on 9/Nov/2019 @ 0200 ????:

 

[John Singer]

On 11/6/2019 at 4:28 AM, edwardandtubs said:

Has anyone bought a box of 3M 9105 masks from Lazada and then authenticated them as genuine on the 3M website here:

 

https://safeguard.3m.com/Guest#/Validation

 

Given that the official Lazada 3M store is out of stock and has been for ages, I suspect those other shops are all selling fakes. 

 

I did after reading your post with a different 3M model of mine. I entered the codes and was told this is a valid code combination and that any later attempts to authenticate with those codes would result in a negative result. 

[bbi1]

41 minutes ago, John Singer said:

I did after reading your post with a different 3M model of mine. I entered the codes and was told this is a valid code combination and that any later attempts to authenticate with those codes would result in a negative result. 

Do you have a link to the seller on Lazada who's selling those genuine 3M masks?

[edwardandtubs]

8 hours ago, bbi1 said:

Do you have a link to the seller on Lazada who's selling those genuine 3M masks?

I don't think you can validate the Vflex masks with that link, only the Aura and 8210 masks. The latter is available from 3Mdelivery and the official Lazada store. Homepro has the 9010 mask on sale for 29 baht and it's ok. Not as comfortable as Vflex but better than the earloop masks.

[bbi1]

45 minutes ago, edwardandtubs said:

I don't think you can validate the Vflex masks with that link, only the Aura and 8210 masks. The latter is available from 3Mdelivery and the official Lazada store. Homepro has the 9010 mask on sale for 29 baht and it's ok. Not as comfortable as Vflex but better than the earloop masks.

You can validate any 3M mask there. Look on the box at the top or bottom and you will see they have the same validation code details.

[edwardandtubs]

2 hours ago, bbi1 said:

You can validate any 3M mask there. Look on the box at the top or bottom and you will see they have the same validation code details.

Thanks. I think I'll buy a box of Vflex from Lazada then and if they fail the validation I'll return them. The 9010 masks leave some deep lines on the face. I'm suspicious though about how these small online vendors are managing to source the Vflex masks when they are sold out at all reputable retailers not only in Thailand but also Singapore where they are manufactured.

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by edwardandtubs

[MaxYakov]

Holy <deleted>! Where were you the morning of 11/11/19? I hope cuddled up next to an air purifier.

 

The RTAQ folks are forecasting more of the same all day next Friday and Saturday. How can they forecast this level of pollution? This is far worse than November 2018 according to the RTAQ historic data.

 

 

FIRMS: 11/11/19 @ 0425, Bangkok area:

 

[wasabi]

What is the least polluted city in Thailand that has amenities like shopping malls and good hospitals? Seems like it may be Phuket but I found it hard to get around without a car and it is more expensive than other cities.

[Youlike]

Warning: Code RED again in BKK.....

[MaxYakov]

2 hours ago, wasabi said:

What is the least polluted city in Thailand that has amenities like shopping malls and good hospitals? Seems like it may be Phuket but I found it hard to get around without a car and it is more expensive than other cities.

Have you eliminated Delhi, India as a potential place to move to? Not too expensive there I hear. 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by MaxYakov

[wasabi]

47 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

Have you eliminated Delhi, India as a potential place to move to? Not too expensive there I hear. 

I don't believe Delhi is a city in Thailand unless there's something I missed. I'm looking for cities in Thailand with the lowest pollution not worldwide. And yes I realize you are joking.

Edited November 11, 2019 by wasabi

[Misty]

3 hours ago, wasabi said:

What is the least polluted city in Thailand that has amenities like shopping malls and good hospitals? Seems like it may be Phuket but I found it hard to get around without a car and it is more expensive than other cities.

Phuket may be your best bet, although pollution from Borneo burning did hit them a couple of months back.

 

I wonder if Rayong could be a runner up. 

[Jason Green]

HOLY CHIRSTMAS! 90 pages here...

 

Can anyone fill me in: WHY IS IT SO SMOKEY? 

 

Has anything been figured out? Burning in Indonesia? China pollution?

[MaxYakov]

7 minutes ago, Jason Green said:

HOLY CHIRSTMAS! 90 pages here...

 

Can anyone fill me in: WHY IS IT SO SMOKEY? 

 

Has anything been figured out? Burning in Indonesia? China pollution?

Bangkok has its own base level of pollution plus there  are many fires to the north. This is much worse than Nov 2018 and was somehow predicted on the RTQA site here: http://aqicn.org/city/bangkok/  It's the best I can offer and their ability to predict the pollution days in advance is a little disconcerting to me (what is it they know that we don't? and why can't they use this to prevent it?).

 

Here are the current fires to the north according to the FIRMS system linked HERE :

 

 

 

 

[TerraplaneGuy]

Getting back to indoor AQ:  Has anyone noticed that running aircon impairs AQ?  Here's what I found:

 

I recently bought a Hatari HT-AP1 purifier.  In my bedroom (about 10 sq m) it reduces PM 2.5 to zero running the fan at the lowest level (1).  But when I run the aircon, PM 2.5 goes up to 10 or more within 30 minutes or so, with the Hatari still on the same fan level.  When I turn the aircon off, PM 2.5 goes back to zero.  I changed nothing else in the room besides the aircon.  I've repeated this experiment several times and the results are the same.

 

The only other variable I could think of was humidity, which I know can fool the particle monitor.  I noticed the humidity did rise with aircon on, from 61% to 66%.  But that doesn't seem enough to account for such a big jump in PM 2.5.  AND when I turned off the aircon, the PM 2.5 dropped to zero while the humidity was still at 64%.  So that doesn't seem to be the culprit. (BTW I'm using a SNDWAY 2.5 monitor which has proved quite accurate in many settings)

 

I've read that aircon does not bring in outside air.  My aircon is a supposedly good Daikin system, with the compressor etc. outside on the deck and the indoor cooling vents flush against the upper walls of my rooms.  Just had the filters cleaned a few days ago (before the above tests).

 

Does anyone understand why this happens?