When Farangs Go Native

[Zooheekock]

9 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

some Thai think farang who learn customs to the nth degree are cute, some think they are try hards and lose respect for them. On the flip side, some Thai think farang who don't learn customs and make mistakes are cute and some think they should try harder.

On the whole, you are vastly better off and will be vastly more popular if you err on the side of caution and are too polite. When you don't know any better, it's wiser to stick with a ข้าพเจ้า than a กู, right? The only people who really care about returning an overly polite wai to the cashier in Big C are those immigrants who want to make the most of their (almost always) very limited knowledge of Thailand and Thai language and culture. Nobody else is likely to notice, and in the unlikely event that they do, they're not going to think much about it one way or the other.

[Puwa]

2 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Needs to be in sentence

kee maa = dog poop

maa leaw = I'm here

by wat maa = I just come back from the temple

kee maa = horse ride

 

Too many maa's

Dude you have no idea what you are talking about. Ask your sheila, she'll set you right. 

[canuckamuck]

2 hours ago, OldSiamHand said:

Wrong.  You return the wai.  The person "below your notice" will be the one initiating the wai. and not returning the wai makes you a douche.

It just isn't that simple. First it depends on what the service was. Cashier at a grocery store forget about it. Guy who pumps your gas, no way.  Someone who just spent a lot of time and got you exactly what you wanted, or fixed something valuable to you (you had a very positivist personal experience) yeah return the wai. In between those two events is a lot of grey. This is why I adopted the sincere smile and head nod approach. It works 100% of the time and you never look like a douche.

Sometimes a wai is like leaving a tip. and used in the same situations. 

[Thian]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the farang didn't get a quote BEFORE getting it fixed it's his own fault if it's too expensive. 

The only stupid person was the farang that tried to argue with Thais when he can't speak Thai.

I'm not surprised that Thais get PO with farangs when so many are like that ignorant idiot.

Some years ago i also went to buy a new car from Toyota or Honda...many dealers can't speak a word english (big dealers) and when they find out that you want to pay cash instead of a loan they are not interested AT ALL to sell the car.

 

When my wife bought her car i went with her, that salesguy couldn't speak a word english but there was a girl who sells the extra accessoiries and she speaks good english (she married a farang).

I asked if she could help us filling in the papers so i could also understand what was going on but that was impossible.

 

Thailand 4.0....no sapea inlit kab....mai pen lai...but Thailand wants quality tourists and high educated expats to come here.

[Thian]

2 hours ago, ravip said:

...they all looked so stupid for not being able to speak English.

... how important it is to speak English

 

I don't condone cheating anyone under any circumstance.

But, in Farang Land to they speak Thai or any other language the customer/Foreigner speaks?

Hmmm...

 

In Europe the salespersons can speak english or go home....maybe not in the fruitshop but for sure in shops where they sell expensive stuff over 1000 euro.

 

And this toyotadealer had to repair my wifes car, another driver drove into the back of hers...they both had the same prime insurance who would pay all. After 5 days she called the garage when her car would be ready, they said they were waiting for the insurance to aprove. So she called her insurance and they said that the claim for her car just came in that morning.....The garage needed 5!! days to estimate the price of the damage....my wife had to use taxi's to go to work which she had to pay herself, not the insurance and she couldn't get a replacement car. The accident was not her fault at all.

[OldSiamHand]

1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

It just isn't that simple. First it depends on what the service was. Cashier at a grocery store forget about it. Guy who pumps your gas, no way.  Someone who just spent a lot of time and got you exactly what you wanted, or fixed something valuable to you (you had a very positivist personal experience) yeah return the wai. In between those two events is a lot of grey. This is why I adopted the sincere smile and head nod approach. It works 100% of the time and you never look like a douche.

Sometimes a wai is like leaving a tip. and used in the same situations. 

Yes, you said it much better.  The smile and head nod is usually my way of returning a wai as well.

[ravip]

53 minutes ago, Thian said:

In Europe the salespersons can speak english or go home....maybe not in the fruitshop but for sure in shops where they sell expensive stuff over 1000 euro.

 

And this toyotadealer had to repair my wifes car, another driver drove into the back of hers...they both had the same prime insurance who would pay all. After 5 days she called the garage when her car would be ready, they said they were waiting for the insurance to aprove. So she called her insurance and they said that the claim for her car just came in that morning.....The garage needed 5!! days to estimate the price of the damage....my wife had to use taxi's to go to work which she had to pay herself, not the insurance and she couldn't get a replacement car. The accident was not her fault at all.

Sorry, you missed my point.

I meant in Europe will a salesman speak Thai, Japanese, Portuguese depending on the customer?

In many countries English may not be spoken. Try Japan.

[Thian]

31 minutes ago, ravip said:

Sorry, you missed my point.

I meant in Europe will a salesman speak Thai, Japanese, Portuguese depending on the customer?

In many countries English may not be spoken. Try Japan.

I was in japan last year and in tokyo almost all could speak english. 

 

But Europeans don't need to speak anything else than english as 1st or 2nd language. And all good sales can do it or they wouldn't be sales...no matter who their daddy is.

 

 

[Zooheekock]

If you live in Thailand, learn to speak Thai. Unless you have some kind of learning difficulty, it's really not very difficult. All the whinging about how you bought a lovely Meissen figurine last time you were in Bratislava whilst speaking only Vedic Sanskrit is entirely pointless and only serves to underline how stupid, lazy and self-indulgent so many of the white immigrants in Thailand are.

[Jonah Tenner]

2 hours ago, Chrisdoc said:

I understand you are not meant to wai back to children but I do because they learn from mimicking.

The problem with that is that waiing a child is supposed to bring that child bad luck...

[jak2002003]

I found the article rather pathetic to be honest.  The author comes across as a Thai person who is ashamed of their own culture and who wants to be like her dream model of a Farang in the West.  When she sees Farangs liking the Thai culture and trying to become part of Thai society it destroys her dream and wastes all her hard work she has put in to become like a 'superior' culture Farang woman.  

 

She even refers to her fellow Thai people as 'natives' and says we live in 'tribes'!  How primitive does she think Thai society is?!

 

'learning some language, meeting some social expectations – can become annoying to the very natives whose approval is sought. '

 

Why?  This to any normal person would be a good thing.   'Natives'... hmm.. not very PC. If Thai people come to live in the UK we would expect them to learn our language and social customs.  No one would find it annoying.. in fact it would be annoying if they did not learn English, or integrate into general society!!

 

'Soon positive feedback is won for a few superficial gestures as novelty and intrigue leads to a false sense of being accepted'.

 

A false sense of beign accepted.  Is she saying Thai people won't accepts a farang as a fellow human being?  

 

'After years in Thailand, indications of his Christian upbringing are replaced by meditation, traditional medicine and sunrise alms-giving at his local temple. His determined stride is replaced by a shuffled gait and opinionated philosophy become internal monologue no longer expressed to others'.

 

She thinks all Farangs are religious fanatical Christians, who are opinionated? Where are her numbers to show how many Christians convert to Buddhism?  She will have to realise that Farangland has many religions, and also a big percentage of people are not religions at all... and yes, we even have Buddhist in Farangland, in fact its one of the fastest growing religions there!!

 

'they risk partially entering an unfamiliar group only to find their own kind also don’t like it'.   

Our own 'kind'... what is that?   Of course the new people are unfamiliar, this is why we have to enter the new group and make efforts to get to know the people.  

 

'Shedding one’s identity so effortlessly suggests little value placed on one’s tribe in the first place'.     

We don't live in tribes.  I have no idea what county you are thining about.  Also how are we shedding out identity?  

 

 'To please the natives, that’s understood, but if it’s to shed despised traits for complete reinvention of self?'  

What the hell is this about?  People are constantly changing as they grow up and experience different things in life.  No one stays the same all their lives... and the authors own Buddhist faith and  teachings place strong emphasis on change and growth... and about how everything constantly changes through time.  

 

And, why does she think we are despising ourselves?

 

And, here is where her real meaning comes through.   Its not about Farangs adapting to Thai culture... its about her lack of understanding about human beings. 

 

'To suddenly see those we admire abandon their personas and take ours to the n’th degree confounds the mind. Have they moved so far forward only to step back'

 

She is actually saying she has no understanding about Farangs.  She is actually saying Thai people are a backwards and worth less than Farangs... saying this about her own people!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Thian said:

Some years ago i also went to buy a new car from Toyota or Honda...many dealers can't speak a word english (big dealers) and when they find out that you want to pay cash instead of a loan they are not interested AT ALL to sell the car.

 

When my wife bought her car i went with her, that salesguy couldn't speak a word english but there was a girl who sells the extra accessoiries and she speaks good english (she married a farang).

I asked if she could help us filling in the papers so i could also understand what was going on but that was impossible.

 

Thailand 4.0....no sapea inlit kab....mai pen lai...but Thailand wants quality tourists and high educated expats to come here.

Can't your wife speak English?

I'd have thought that would be an incentive to learn Thai. Big face loss for your wife there.

[Neeranam]

16 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

I found the article rather pathetic to be honest.  The author comes across as a Thai person who is ashamed of their own culture and who wants to be like her dream model of a Farang in the West.  When she sees Farangs liking the Thai culture and trying to become part of Thai society it destroys her dream and wastes all her hard work she has put in to become like a 'superior' culture Farang woman.  

 

She even refers to her fellow Thai people as 'natives' and says we live in 'tribes'!  How primitive does she think Thai society is?!

 

'learning some language, meeting some social expectations – can become annoying to the very natives whose approval is sought. '

 

Why?  This to any normal person would be a good thing.   'Natives'... hmm.. not very PC. If Thai people come to live in the UK we would expect them to learn our language and social customs.  No one would find it annoying.. in fact it would be annoying if they did not learn English, or integrate into general society!!

 

'Soon positive feedback is won for a few superficial gestures as novelty and intrigue leads to a false sense of being accepted'.

 

A false sense of beign accepted.  Is she saying Thai people won't accepts a farang as a fellow human being?  

 

'After years in Thailand, indications of his Christian upbringing are replaced by meditation, traditional medicine and sunrise alms-giving at his local temple. His determined stride is replaced by a shuffled gait and opinionated philosophy become internal monologue no longer expressed to others'.

 

She thinks all Farangs are religious fanatical Christians, who are opinionated? Where are her numbers to show how many Christians convert to Buddhism?  She will have to realise that Farangland has many religions, and also a big percentage of people are not religions at all... and yes, we even have Buddhist in Farangland, in fact its one of the fastest growing religions there!!

 

'they risk partially entering an unfamiliar group only to find their own kind also don’t like it'.   

Our own 'kind'... what is that?   Of course the new people are unfamiliar, this is why we have to enter the new group and make efforts to get to know the people.  

 

'Shedding one’s identity so effortlessly suggests little value placed on one’s tribe in the first place'.     

We don't live in tribes.  I have no idea what county you are thining about.  Also how are we shedding out identity?  

 

 'To please the natives, that’s understood, but if it’s to shed despised traits for complete reinvention of self?'  

What the hell is this about?  People are constantly changing as they grow up and experience different things in life.  No one stays the same all their lives... and the authors own Buddhist faith and  teachings place strong emphasis on change and growth... and about how everything constantly changes through time.  

 

And, why does she think we are despising ourselves?

 

And, here is where her real meaning comes through.   Its not about Farangs adapting to Thai culture... its about her lack of understanding about human beings. 

 

'To suddenly see those we admire abandon their personas and take ours to the n’th degree confounds the mind. Have they moved so far forward only to step back'

 

She is actually saying she has no understanding about Farangs.  She is actually saying Thai people are a backwards and worth less than Farangs... saying this about her own people!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spot on. Good post. One of the few to actually read the article, I think.

[DrTuner]

The longer I stay here the less native I become. The interest in anything Thai is diminishing by the minute and I'm returning to my colonial master roots. Seems to work far better.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, Chrisdoc said:

If you want to talk relevance the post was about whether to wai to shop workers. Starting to talk about whether people in my village think I'm illegal is stretching relevance. To keep you happy I can post my resume if you like.

Sent from my SM-J120G using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

If a post causes confusion, it's normally down to the person who wrote it. I'm not psychic and can only go on what you wrote.

Have a nice day.

[Neeranam]

20 minutes ago, Zooheekock said:

If you live in Thailand, learn to speak Thai. Unless you have some kind of learning difficulty, it's really not very difficult. All the whinging about how you bought a lovely Meissen figurine last time you were in Bratislava whilst speaking only Vedic Sanskrit is entirely pointless and only serves to underline how stupid, lazy and self-indulgent so many of the white immigrants in Thailand are.

Right on, reminds me of one poster in particular, who goes on about his wealth and knowledge of many languages. Last week I was at an interview in relation to getting citizenship. The guy at the next table couldn't answer the first question, " what is your date of birth?" He asked if he could say it in English, and the interviewer, said no. Amazing as he must of been here at least 5 years.

[Chrisdoc]

Yes but I have heard alot of these. Don't point your feet at people,don't touch baby's head but I have asked my Thai wife about them and she has never heard of them. She has only told me about not getting haircuts on Wednesday but then all the hairdressers are open so people must be getting alot of bad luck. I wai back to my 2 y.o. nephew. Family told me I don't need to but I say that if I don't return it he will stop doing it and not learn. They have never told me not to as it is bad luck.

Sent from my SM-J120G using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Can't your wife speak English?

I'd have thought that would be an incentive to learn Thai. Big face loss for your wife there.

From posts on TVF it appears than many farang think their wife is incapable of doing anything and it is up to them to negotiate everything, despite not speaking a word of Thai.

Hence the posts asking what they need to get married/ divorced/ buy something etc, as apparently their Thai wives are not capable of speaking to other Thais.

[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, Beats56 said:

Well I discussed this with my wife. She said it is ok to sawdee. But I am not talking about a cashier. It is when one of her family comes over for a visit and they Wai me because I  am elder to them and i greet them with a hello or sawdee cup. Perfectly ok.

Yes I know how to say thank you in Thai.

You were replying about what to do when a cashier wais you. You said you say "sawadee cup".

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, OldSiamHand said:

Yes, you said it much better.  The smile and head nod is usually my way of returning a wai as well.

Lots of people changing their minds here. You said you must return the wai, yesterday.

[thaibeachlovers]

31 minutes ago, Zooheekock said:

If you live in Thailand, learn to speak Thai. Unless you have some kind of learning difficulty, it's really not very difficult. All the whinging about how you bought a lovely Meissen figurine last time you were in Bratislava whilst speaking only Vedic Sanskrit is entirely pointless and only serves to underline how stupid, lazy and self-indulgent so many of the white immigrants in Thailand are.

Many of us expats do have a learning difficulty. It's called age related hearing loss and prevents one learning a tonal language.

Perhaps you are young and like all young people don't understand that age does change things. Anyway, everyone gets old and gains hearing and vision defects.

[Chrisdoc]

If a post causes confusion, it's normally down to the person who wrote it. I'm not psychic and can only go on what you wrote.
Have a nice day.

Thank you. And a nice day or evening to you.

Sent from my SM-J120G using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Chrisdoc]

The problem with that is that waiing a child is supposed to bring that child bad luck...

Hi. I did reply to this but it posted as a separate comment.

Sent from my SM-J120G using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Neeranam]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

From posts on TVF it appears than many farang think their wife is incapable of doing anything and it is up to them to negotiate everything, despite not speaking a word of Thai.

Hence the posts asking what they need to get married/ divorced/ buy something etc, as apparently their Thai wives are not capable of speaking to other Thais.

And many think asking their wife, who left school at 14, about the finer nuances of the Thai language or when to wai people, or other cultural issues, better than asking a farang who has studied the language for 25 years.

[Neeranam]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Many of us expats do have a learning difficulty. It's called age related hearing loss and prevents one learning a tonal language.

Perhaps you are young and like all young people don't understand that age does change things. Anyway, everyone gets old and gains hearing and vision defects.

Oldest excuse in the book. Can you read Thai? 

[kokesaat]

18 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Many of us expats do have a learning difficulty. It's called age related hearing loss and prevents one learning a tonal language.

Perhaps you are young and like all young people don't understand that age does change things. Anyway, everyone gets old and gains hearing and vision defects.

I learned Thai during my 5 year denial period of needing hearing aids.  I don't buy the argument that you can't learn the language because you're old or your hearing isn't up to par.  I do buy the argument that you can't learn Thai because you haven't found the right teacher or you don't have the motivation.....or both.

[MrPatrickThai]

33 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Many of us expats do have a learning difficulty. It's called age related hearing loss and prevents one learning a tonal language.

Perhaps you are young and like all young people don't understand that age does change things. Anyway, everyone gets old and gains hearing and vision defects.

Can I ask how many years you've been trying to learn Thai? I have a qualification in linguistics and interested in this. How many hours a day do you put aside for learning? Do you try to learn a certain amount of new vocabulary each week or day? I know old people in their 50's/60's who have become fluent in 6 months by going to intensive classes. I know one guy 60's who has lived in a village in the middle of nowhere for 20 years and honestly has never had a conversation with any of his neighbours. 

[MrPatrickThai]

16 minutes ago, kokesaat said:

I learned Thai during my 5 year denial period of needing hearing aids.  I don't buy the argument that you can't learn the language because you're old or your hearing isn't up to par.  I do buy the argument that you can't learn Thai because you haven't found the right teacher or you don't have the motivation.....or both.

I agree. The older people here are retired and have all day to learn. Often it's the wife or girlfriend that doesn't want them to know what's really going on. 

[Puwa]

1 hour ago, jak2002003 said:

I found the article rather pathetic to be honest.  The author comes across as a Thai person who is ashamed of their own culture and who wants to be like her dream model of a Farang in the West.  When she sees Farangs liking the Thai culture and trying to become part of Thai society it destroys her dream and wastes all her hard work she has put in to become like a 'superior' culture Farang woman.  

 

She even refers to her fellow Thai people as 'natives' and says we live in 'tribes'!  How primitive does she think Thai society is?!

 

'learning some language, meeting some social expectations – can become annoying to the very natives whose approval is sought. '

 

Why?  This to any normal person would be a good thing.   'Natives'... hmm.. not very PC. If Thai people come to live in the UK we would expect them to learn our language and social customs.  No one would find it annoying.. in fact it would be annoying if they did not learn English, or integrate into general society!!

 

'Soon positive feedback is won for a few superficial gestures as novelty and intrigue leads to a false sense of being accepted'.

 

A false sense of beign accepted.  Is she saying Thai people won't accepts a farang as a fellow human being?  

 

'After years in Thailand, indications of his Christian upbringing are replaced by meditation, traditional medicine and sunrise alms-giving at his local temple. His determined stride is replaced by a shuffled gait and opinionated philosophy become internal monologue no longer expressed to others'.

 

She thinks all Farangs are religious fanatical Christians, who are opinionated? Where are her numbers to show how many Christians convert to Buddhism?  She will have to realise that Farangland has many religions, and also a big percentage of people are not religions at all... and yes, we even have Buddhist in Farangland, in fact its one of the fastest growing religions there!!

 

'they risk partially entering an unfamiliar group only to find their own kind also don’t like it'.   

Our own 'kind'... what is that?   Of course the new people are unfamiliar, this is why we have to enter the new group and make efforts to get to know the people.  

 

'Shedding one’s identity so effortlessly suggests little value placed on one’s tribe in the first place'.     

We don't live in tribes.  I have no idea what county you are thining about.  Also how are we shedding out identity?  

 

 'To please the natives, that’s understood, but if it’s to shed despised traits for complete reinvention of self?'  

What the hell is this about?  People are constantly changing as they grow up and experience different things in life.  No one stays the same all their lives... and the authors own Buddhist faith and  teachings place strong emphasis on change and growth... and about how everything constantly changes through time.  

 

And, why does she think we are despising ourselves?

 

And, here is where her real meaning comes through.   Its not about Farangs adapting to Thai culture... its about her lack of understanding about human beings. 

 

'To suddenly see those we admire abandon their personas and take ours to the n’th degree confounds the mind. Have they moved so far forward only to step back'

 

She is actually saying she has no understanding about Farangs.  She is actually saying Thai people are a backwards and worth less than Farangs... saying this about her own people!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well put, allow me to add two cents. The author represents the view that while it is normal for Thais to aspire to western living, it is unacceptably abnormal for westerners to even participate in Thai culture. This is a classic example where deep feelings of shame and inferiority manifest as arrogance. She fails to understand the difference between, on one hand, the grasping upper-middle-class Thai parent who dreams of status and riches, and on the other, the individual farang whom she encounters not in a determined  scuffle for economic advancement, but in an attempt to learn and show respect. Because her frame of reference is people rejecting inferior Thai options for better foreign ones, she mistakenly assumes that when we speak Thai or wai she has caught us in the act of also aspiring to something better.  She concludes that we are foolishly, desperately seeking approval for participating as amateurs in something essentially worthless to all but native experts. Thus it is her supreme triumph to  claim superiority by withholding approval. 

 

Such narrowmindedness has been programmed over decades of authoritarian rule. All Thais know the country is corrupt, backward, ruled by idiots. Everyone wants to flee abroad. Most can't, so they establish a pecking order of aspiration. The lowest end might be knowing some foreign songs or movies, the high end is attaining citizenship elsewhere. Some Thais, like the author, seem unnerved that foreigners will "know too much" and discover their secret shame of backwardness and dream to flee. It's no great discovery; we all knew before we landed. This seems to be why some Thais prefer tourists to expats and become decidedly squirrelly when confronted with a foreigner speaking Thai. The barbarians have breached the wall and seen the empty quivers in the armory. But there's good news: we come in peace.

 

 

[Zooheekock]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Many of us expats do have a learning difficulty. It's called age related hearing loss and prevents one learning a tonal language.

Perhaps you are young and like all young people don't understand that age does change things. Anyway, everyone gets old and gains hearing and vision defects.

If you have hearing loss then obviously you will have difficulty learning any foreign language, not just a tonal one; the range of frequencies over which Thai speech ranges is perfectly normal so it's not as if the loss of hearing at higher frequencies which older people typically experience is going to be bad for learners of Thai but of no consequence for learners of French.

And it's just not true that older people can't learn foreign languages. If you're 70, not suffering from some kind of disability or condition which is obviously going to cause problems, and you put the effort in, you can learn Thai.