German minister warns Israel it faces growing frustration in Europe

[DaddyWarbucks]

The German Foreign Minister has cause to be concerned.

What will happen as Israel abandons the two-state solution remains a subject of much speculation.

It is important for the world, and in particular for Jews, to understand what has occurred in Palestine in historical terms. 

After WWII, Zionism was allowed to become a colonialist project at a time when colonialism was being rejected by the civilized world because the creation of a Jewish state offered Europe, and West Germany in particular, an easy way out of the worst excesses of anti-Semitism ever seen. 

Israel was the first to declare its recognition of 'a new Germany' - in return it received a lot of money, but also, far more importantly a carte blanche to turn the whole of Palestine into Israel.

Zionism offered itself as the solution to anti-Semitism, but ironically, has become the main reason for its continued existence.

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

You go for this dishonest tactic on almost every topic. Hijack a post as if replying, while actually ignoring the post's content and going on one of the routine propaganda tirades. Then complain when your faux "points" aren't addressed. Your straw man question and argument are hereby dully acknowledged and tossed aside where they belong.

 

I did not "accuse" the Palestinians, but rather opined that the concept of "guilt" and "innocence" when applied to a people in general, are not useful nor usually correct. If anything, it is you who's obsessed with laying blame and assigning guilt in a one-sided manner. That you try to spin this in order to push a contrived "question" addressing one of your propaganda talking points is a routine tactic by now.

 

Your own view is that Israel's existence is illegitimate. That is not a universally accepted view. That is not Gabriel's view. Just another bit of nonsense you made up. The rest of your fables are the same old contradictory and ridiculous bunch of slogans.

 

A peace agreement is a two-sided affair, whether you like to acknowledge it or not - so just in the same way that the Palestinian side can accept or reject it, so could Israel. There is no conclusion or imperative which prescribes that Israel should be the sole side to offer solutions, while the Palestinian side plays a passive role. If your misconception rests on the imaginary "legitimization" claim, it should be pointed out that not achieving an agreement takes its toll on the Palestinian side as well. And if to apply your bogus terminology, also denies them their own "legitimization". It's a two way street. Guess that's another avenue leading to the contradictory "time is on the Palestinian's side" slogan.

 

On this post the only kind of peace worth having is a permanent one, on other posts you advocated all sorts of temporary truces. And, of course, nothing which relates how this relates or effects the Palestinians. No worries, a coherent explanation is not expected.

 

You can make up whatever "simple" solutions waiting just around the corner. But you know very well that even if Israel's government was up for that (and I am not claiming that it is, despite your many attempts to misrepresent my views), it is not the case that the Palestinian side would readily accept, or even accept at all. And that's referring to the supposedly moderate factions, disregarding Hamas and Islamic Jihad positions which you habitually ignore. Trying to paint the Palestinian side as ready and willing is patently false.

The Palestinian two state solution has been on the table for the last 16 years. It is the same as German Foreign Minister Gabriel's. What is Israel's?

 

There are some things in this world that are plain wrong. The uninvited invasion by overwhemingly European colonizers, the ethnic cleansing of the native population, and a 50 year brutal occupation in de facto apartheid is one such evil.
No amount of spin, whitewash and defending the indefensible by you will alter that.

 

For the nth time you repeat the lie "Your own view is that Israel's existence is illegitimate". Wrong! It is the evil supremacist ideology of Zionism that is illegitimate and the root cause of the entire conflict. Something you never criticize, so don't lecture others about one sidedness.

 

FM Gabriel has presented 4 options for Israel outlined earlier. Israel has all the power to decide which one they choose.

 

The Palestinians are staying put, their population is growing as is the global awareness of Israel's injustice, especially among the younger generation of Jewish American voters...wonderful!

 

Israel has veered too far to the right pandering to religious fanatics and nationalists and currently has lost the plot. The pressure for Israel to see sense can only come now from outside: from its largest trading partner the EU or its largest financer USA. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by dexterm

[Jingthing]

I do think it is in Israel's long term interest to work harder on a two state solution. I think the common saying that Israel can be either a Jewish state or a democratic state but not both if the Palestinians don't have their own state is basically true. The status quo right now is a holding pattern, it's not good but it could be worse, but surely the status quo can't hold forever. 

[ilostmypassword]

27 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I do think it is in Israel's long term interest to work harder on a two state solution. I think the common saying that Israel can be either a Jewish state or a democratic state but not both if the Palestinians don't have their own state is basically true. The status quo right now is a holding pattern, it's not good but it could be worse, but surely the status quo can't hold forever. 

"Work harder?" Does that mean you believe that Israel is working on it at all? Or is this like the Mad Tea Party?

'Take some more tea,' the March Hare said to Alice, very earnestly.

'I've had nothing yet,' Alice replied in an offended tone, 'so I can't take more.'

'You mean you can't take less,' said the Hatter: 'it's very easy to take more than nothing.'

http://sabian.org/alice_in_wonderland7.php

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

More of your alternative facts.

 

There was no Palestinian two state solution. What you might be referring to is the Saudi (or Arab) Peace Initiative. Co-opting it as a Palestinian thing is quite rich - especially considering that the Hamas (representing at least half of the Palestinians) rejected it. Other than that, not all relevant parties to the Saudi Peace Initiative are currently able to commit, or are favorable toward it's implementation. Ignoring actual facts again, and again, and again...

 

That you try to turn each and every related and semi-related topic into a platform for your extreme views does not make your extreme views universally acceptable. Most of the world does not subscribe to your hateful positions, and vehement rhetoric. This, coupled with the insistence of ignoring anything reflecting negatively on the Palestinian side does not lend much credibility to your posts.

 

I do not lie. Twist it as much as you like, what you are after is the destruction of Israel. Call it this or that, the end result of your views leads to the same place. As for me not criticizing Israel or Zionism, more nonsense out of you. If by "criticism" you dictate taking up the sort of bile-filled emotive tirades you favor, then guess you have a "point". We can't all be zealots.

 

And on with your usual nonsense. One post it's all up to Israel. Another post it's all up to the Palestinians. Which is it? Israel's options are not disparate from the Palestinians', you are pretty much out there with the insistence on the Palestinians playing a passive role even when it comes to negotiations. That you repeat a variation of "time is on the Palestinians' side"' does not make this true, nor does it provide much hope for the Palestinians themselves - only, perhaps for such wannabe "activists" such as yourself, who actually thrive on conflict. The readiness in which you support consigning the Palestinian people to even more of the same, in the name of "victory" over compromise, is quite telling.

 

You are not suspected of having much of a handle when it comes to either Israeli or Palestinian politics, hence your decisive pronouncements on these matters are not to be taken seriously. That this is combined with your ongoing fantasies about upcoming outside extreme economic and political pressure being applied by the EU and the US, I wouldn't hold my breath. Not with regard to this materializing, and not with regard to it producing quite the effect fantasized about.

 

 

[Morch]

51 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I do think it is in Israel's long term interest to work harder on a two state solution. I think the common saying that Israel can be either a Jewish state or a democratic state but not both if the Palestinians don't have their own state is basically true. The status quo right now is a holding pattern, it's not good but it could be worse, but surely the status quo can't hold forever. 

 

Indeed.

 

I would add to that, though, that while these topic overly focus on Israel - it is also the Palestinians' best interest to reach an agreement. The more this is delayed, the less of their national aspirations will materialize - idle promises and predictions aside. This and more, in the same way that the ongoing occupation effects and changes Israeli society - it does so with regard to the Palestinians.

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

"Work harder?" Does that mean you believe that Israel is working on it at all? Or is this like the Mad Tea Party?

'Take some more tea,' the March Hare said to Alice, very earnestly.

'I've had nothing yet,' Alice replied in an offended tone, 'so I can't take more.'

'You mean you can't take less,' said the Hatter: 'it's very easy to take more than nothing.'

http://sabian.org/alice_in_wonderland7.php

 

The Israeli government isn't. But that's not altogether surprising considering its ideological/religious affiliations. It's also quite easy to maintain this stance with the Palestinian side not actually challenging the status quo in a creative manner, but sticking to its own guns, as it were (or going through the same routines).

 

The leadership crisis on both sides is such, that even a faux pro-peace move, aimed at exposing the other side's rejection and intransigence is almost unimaginable.

 

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post has been removed. 

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

More of your alternative facts.

 

There was no Palestinian two state solution. What you might be referring to is the Saudi (or Arab) Peace Initiative. Co-opting it as a Palestinian thing is quite rich - especially considering that the Hamas (representing at least half of the Palestinians) rejected it. Other than that, not all relevant parties to the Saudi Peace Initiative are currently able to commit, or are favorable toward it's implementation. Ignoring actual facts again, and again, and again...

 

That you try to turn each and every related and semi-related topic into a platform for your extreme views does not make your extreme views universally acceptable. Most of the world does not subscribe to your hateful positions, and vehement rhetoric. This, coupled with the insistence of ignoring anything reflecting negatively on the Palestinian side does not lend much credibility to your posts.

 

I do not lie. Twist it as much as you like, what you are after is the destruction of Israel. Call it this or that, the end result of your views leads to the same place. As for me not criticizing Israel or Zionism, more nonsense out of you. If by "criticism" you dictate taking up the sort of bile-filled emotive tirades you favor, then guess you have a "point". We can't all be zealots.

 

And on with your usual nonsense. One post it's all up to Israel. Another post it's all up to the Palestinians. Which is it? Israel's options are not disparate from the Palestinians', you are pretty much out there with the insistence on the Palestinians playing a passive role even when it comes to negotiations. That you repeat a variation of "time is on the Palestinians' side"' does not make this true, nor does it provide much hope for the Palestinians themselves - only, perhaps for such wannabe "activists" such as yourself, who actually thrive on conflict. The readiness in which you support consigning the Palestinian people to even more of the same, in the name of "victory" over compromise, is quite telling.

 

You are not suspected of having much of a handle when it comes to either Israeli or Palestinian politics, hence your decisive pronouncements on these matters are not to be taken seriously. That this is combined with your ongoing fantasies about upcoming outside extreme economic and political pressure being applied by the EU and the US, I wouldn't hold my breath. Not with regard to this materializing, and not with regard to it producing quite the effect fantasized about.

 

 

Ah the old it's all in the too hard basket, these matters are too complex, you don't understand excuse.

 

The basis for the solution is very simple indeed, as are the consequences of failing to apply it, as Gabriel warned.
. 
1. Jerusalem
The German FM said he looked forward to the day when he could move his Israeli Embassy to West Jerusalem, his Palestinian Embassy to East Jerusalem.
2. Two state solution.
Europe supports a two state solution. Gabriel expressed his concern that Israel's words and actions suggest maybe it has changed its mind.
3. Based on 67 Borders

 

"Both parties have legitimate aspirations with regard to Jerusalem, and a solution can only be found in negotiations. We believe this move must come in support of the implementation of a negotiated two-state solution based on the 67 line. Until then we will follow international law regarding the status of the occupied territories." [i.e. it's an illegal occupation as are Israeli settlements]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/german-fm-is-israel-prepared-to-pay-price-of-perpetual-occupation-1.5783841

 

The only other cornerstone he did not touch upon in his speech was recognition of/compensation for refugees.

Of course there are security, resources sharing issues that could be ironed out in negotiations once the basics have been settled.

 

If you devoted as much time and verbiage as you do flaming other posters' suggestions with some practical ideas of your own as to how Israel can move forward addressing the German FM's concerns that Israel is drifting into an overt apartheid situation, your posts would be far more interesting.

[DaddyWarbucks]

3 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Ah the old it's all in the too hard basket, these matters are too complex, you don't understand excuse.

 

The basis for the solution is very simple indeed, as are the consequences of failing to apply it, as Gabriel warned.
. 
1. Jerusalem
The German FM said he looked forward to the day when he could move his Israeli Embassy to West Jerusalem, his Palestinian Embassy to East Jerusalem.
2. Two state solution.
Europe supports a two state solution. Gabriel expressed his concern that Israel's words and actions suggest maybe it has changed its mind.
3. Based on 67 Borders

 

"Both parties have legitimate aspirations with regard to Jerusalem, and a solution can only be found in negotiations. We believe this move must come in support of the implementation of a negotiated two-state solution based on the 67 line. Until then we will follow international law regarding the status of the occupied territories." [i.e. it's an illegal occupation as are Israeli settlements]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/german-fm-is-israel-prepared-to-pay-price-of-perpetual-occupation-1.5783841

 

The only other cornerstone he did not touch upon in his speech was recognition of/compensation for refugees.

Of course there are security, resources sharing issues that could be ironed out in negotiations once the basics have been settled.

 

If you devoted as much time and verbiage as you do flaming other posters' suggestions with some practical ideas of your own as to how Israel can move forward addressing the German FM's concerns that Israel is drifting into an overt apartheid situation, your posts would be far more interesting.

Excellent post.

It sums up the whole thread and cuts through the fog of propaganda surrounding it.

[Morch]

@dexterm

 

The same regurgitated spins and slogans.

 

What "too hard basket"? And when did pointing out that reality is not as simplistic as your present become an "excuse"? That you can't deal with your obvious "alternative facts" being highlighted is nothing new.

 

You can tout the German FM address all you like - but you still fail to explain how it relates to actual positions of both sides. It is not, despite your misrepresentations and lies, that the Palestinian side fully embraces these notions or that it is ready and willing. That you insist on the Palestinian actual position and capacity for accepting such terms as being either irrelevant or a reality, does not make it so.

 

What "other poster's suggestions" would these be? You did not "suggest" anything. Paraphrasing the German FM speech and adding your own bile-filled rhetoric is not a "suggestion". Furthermore, your so-called "suggestions" are often hollow, owing to the standing refusal to acknowledge anything whatsoever which might reflect less than favorably on the Palestinian side, or imply that it holds even some measure of responsibility and accountability with regard to the state of things.

 

As for whining "flaming" (while constantly engaging in such) and about not bringing up "practical ideas" (while ignoring or rejecting any factual bit of relevant information which does not agree with your views) - must be getting desperate for grasping at this old straw. Not only have I posted such on many occasions, you even acknowledged them as such, on past topics. And not only this, but when details are brought up, your default response is contrived nonsense about "not seeing the big picture" or some such. Really pathetic you have try and pull this sad charade every few months, almost word for word. Do you wish to proceed directly to the step where you semi-apologize blaming memory and spinning the discussion to another direction? That's how it usually goes.

 

Instead of making up lies about what I post and do not post, how about taking a leaf from your own imaginary book and actually make an effort and objectively (lol...) address some of the less flattering aspects and issues related to the Palestinian side? Yeah, thought so. Or, alternatively, if "verbiage" was actually something you cared about, how about cutting down on the pointless emotive-vehement content of your repetitive rants and tirades? Not holding my breath.

[Jingthing]

 

Indeed.

 

I would add to that, though, that while these topic overly focus on Israel - it is also the Palestinians' best interest to reach an agreement. The more this is delayed, the less of their national aspirations will materialize - idle promises and predictions aside. This and more, in the same way that the ongoing occupation effects and changes Israeli society - it does so with regard to the Palestinians.

That goes without saying but thanks for saying it.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dexterm]

45 minutes ago, Morch said:

@dexterm

 

The same regurgitated spins and slogans.

 

What "too hard basket"? And when did pointing out that reality is not as simplistic as your present become an "excuse"? That you can't deal with your obvious "alternative facts" being highlighted is nothing new.

 

You can tout the German FM address all you like - but you still fail to explain how it relates to actual positions of both sides. It is not, despite your misrepresentations and lies, that the Palestinian side fully embraces these notions or that it is ready and willing. That you insist on the Palestinian actual position and capacity for accepting such terms as being either irrelevant or a reality, does not make it so.

 

What "other poster's suggestions" would these be? You did not "suggest" anything. Paraphrasing the German FM speech and adding your own bile-filled rhetoric is not a "suggestion". Furthermore, your so-called "suggestions" are often hollow, owing to the standing refusal to acknowledge anything whatsoever which might reflect less than favorably on the Palestinian side, or imply that it holds even some measure of responsibility and accountability with regard to the state of things.

 

As for whining "flaming" (while constantly engaging in such) and about not bringing up "practical ideas" (while ignoring or rejecting any factual bit of relevant information which does not agree with your views) - must be getting desperate for grasping at this old straw. Not only have I posted such on many occasions, you even acknowledged them as such, on past topics. And not only this, but when details are brought up, your default response is contrived nonsense about "not seeing the big picture" or some such. Really pathetic you have try and pull this sad charade every few months, almost word for word. Do you wish to proceed directly to the step where you semi-apologize blaming memory and spinning the discussion to another direction? That's how it usually goes.

 

Instead of making up lies about what I post and do not post, how about taking a leaf from your own imaginary book and actually make an effort and objectively (lol...) address some of the less flattering aspects and issues related to the Palestinian side? Yeah, thought so. Or, alternatively, if "verbiage" was actually something you cared about, how about cutting down on the pointless emotive-vehement content of your repetitive rants and tirades? Not holding my breath.

Half a dozen paragraphs of personal flaming, and none of it on topic.

 

I have outlined above what the Palestinian position is on a 2 state solution that concurs with the German FM's. Who knows what the real Israeli position is. They are putting out "mixed signals" as the OP puts it.

 

>>You can tout the German FM address all you like - but you still fail to explain how it relates to actual positions of both sides.

 

So with your insight tell TV members what the actual positions of both sides are.

 

 

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

You do realize that everything that was posted is a direct response to your own post, right? None of it on topic, seriously? And as for "personal  flaming", may want to take another look at your own posts.

 

You have not outlined a Palestinian position. The Palestinians did not actually agree to this, and rejected (or refrained from response) on similar offers in the past. But regardless, when you refer to the Palestinians - which faction and which leadership would these be? The unelected, unpopular Abbas's? The Hamas? There is no agreed upon Palestinian position, let alone a an agreed upon and legitimate leadership. The Palestinians can't seem to reach even a national reconciliation agreement, and can't seem to front a proper leadership. Glossing over them facts again, while pretending to make relevant points.

 

The German FM's speech did not address the Palestinian side much, at least not in the quotes linked. That does not mean that the Palestinian speak in one voice, that they are fully committed or that they subscribe to the conditions specified.

 

As for your last bit - is this your best troll attempt? You cannot (or will not) discuss an issue, following some contrived propagandist reasoning, hence trying to throw it back at me? If you're having trouble with the concept of actual positions and existing political realities, some prime pointers appear in this post and numerous others in the past. Pretending this was never brought up is disingenuous, if expected.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Morch

[dexterm]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

You do realize that everything that was posted is a direct response to your own post, right? None of it on topic, seriously? And as for "personal  flaming", may want to take another look at your own posts.

 

You have not outlined a Palestinian position. The Palestinians did not actually agree to this, and rejected (or refrained from response) on similar offers in the past. But regardless, when you refer to the Palestinians - which faction and which leadership would these be? The unelected, unpopular Abbas's? The Hamas? There is no agreed upon Palestinian position, let alone a an agreed upon and legitimate leadership. The Palestinians can't seem to reach even a national reconciliation agreement, and can't seem to front a proper leadership. Glossing over them facts again, while pretending to make relevant points.

 

The German FM's speech did not address the Palestinian side much, at least not in the quotes linked. That does not mean that the Palestinian speak in one voice, that they are fully committed or that they subscribe to the conditions specified.

 

As for your last bit - is this your best troll attempt? You cannot (or will not) discuss an issue, following some contrived propagandist reasoning, hence trying to throw it back at me? If you're having trouble with the concept of actual positions and existing political realities, some prime pointers appear in this post and numerous others in the past. Pretending this was never brought up is disingenuous, if expected.

 

 

para2..

Ah the old catch 22 routine.
Israel cannot talk to the Palestinians because they do not have a united voice....and even if they unite with Hamas, Israel still won't talk to them because they have united with Hamas. 

 

How about just sitting down to talk with the PA and see what is on the table. Well, the PA have made their position clear, same as German FM's.

We only have a few leaked rumors about the supposedly "ultimate deal" that Israel supported...Jerusalem is off the table, a patchwork quilt of bantustans in a state minus, and "money only" in compensation for refugees.....but it's huge! Sad. Looks like a non starter and well out of synch with the EU position. But it would be interesting to know what the Israeli actual position is, because clearly you are not going to state it....more content just to criticize others' interpretations.

 

I hope the German FM follows up this mission with an international peace conference as soon as possible this year so the world can see what is on offer. If the positions are miles apart and the "mixed signals" are true, at least it would clear the air about 25 years of supposed negotiations towards a two state solution charade; then the fight for justice can move into the next phase.

 

I always try to comment on topic, because someone mysteriously keeps reporting me to the mods if I digress.

Edited February 5, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

Always the same nonsense, bringing up issues which were addressed over numerous posts and topics, feigning ignorance and making the same spurious comments.

 

There is no "catch 22". And the only routine here is the insistence on ignoring reality. The Palestinians do not have an agreed upon, legitimate leadership. That's a fact.

 

Hamas is not into talks with Israel, and does not subscribe to the points raised in the German FM's address. Also, the Hamas rejected the Saudi (Arab) Peace Initiative. Once more, trying to gloss over this won't change facts - this isn't solely do to Israel's stance. If Hamas was to reconcile with the PA while dropping the armed struggle and rejectionist stance, there wouldn't be a legitimate reason for the Israeli position. The propagandist reasoning on offer simply cannot address or accept this, even though is plain obvious.

 

And back to the same old chestnut about making peace only with the PA? How many times do we have to go through this? On a previous post in this topic, you claimed that permanent peace is the only kind worth having. Now you seem to tout a less permanent, less encompassing peace. Which is it, then? While at it, could you cite any substantial support for Abbas or the PA being in favor of binding negotiations and talks excluding issues pertaining to the Gaza Strip or the Hamas? Do you imagine that this faux separation on offer is a Palestinian negotiation position? Considering it would effectively annihilate any shred of legitimacy Abbas may still have as a national leader...I don't think so.

 

Abbas, even if he was so inclined, cannot or will not commit (let alone deliver) to the points raised in the German FM address. That he sometimes says this or that is all very fine, but the trouble is that there are almost always denials of things said, counter-statements, alternative interpertations and a whole lot of rhetoric which doesn't really seat well with the supposed peace talk. There's what Abbas says to the world, and there's what he says to the home crowd. Often not the same. Trying to paint it otherwise is nothing but at attempt to mislead.

 

Accordingly, the PA did not "make its position clear". The PA, under both Arafat and Abbas, refused or withheld response to actual offers. Conflating between statements and actual positions, and the will (or the capacity) to act on them is all very well for the purposes of posturing and propaganda. Even if the PA was ready and willing to act on such "positions", what would be the value of such, considering it cannot deliver and that it's legitimacy is unclear?

 

Before you spew more of the "too hard basket" type nonsense slogans - this is about acknowledging reality, rather than dabbling in falsehoods and make-believe. Pretending that things are simple does not make them so. Ignoring issues does not make them go away. Perhaps more appropriate to apply the "too hard basket" to your own refusal when it comes to addressing these realities.

 

I have no idea what the Trump administration supposed peace plan is like, and what it actually includes. Neither do you, for all of the guesswork and rumor presented as fact. As said on past topics, not holding my breath for a magic solution there.

 

As for your ongoing lame trolling attempt - I have actually commented, in-depth and on numerous topics, about the Israeli government's positions - whether actual or those issued for the sake of posturing, and the same is true with regard to opposition and non-government views. That you pretend otherwise is disingenuous, and is only aimed at covering your own inability (or unwillingness) to objectively discuss Palestinian positions in the same manner.

 

Not that there is much to recommend your interpretations and predictions, but I hope that you do realize that the "charade", at least with regard to your own presentation, is that the "miles apart" part applies all around. Similarly, and disregarding the pompous "fight for justice" bit, the "next phase" is mainly a figment of the imagination. Seems like you're more interested in perpetual struggle and strife, rather than focus on fact and reality.

 

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

Always the same nonsense, bringing up issues which were addressed over numerous posts and topics, feigning ignorance and making the same spurious comments.

 

There is no "catch 22". And the only routine here is the insistence on ignoring reality. The Palestinians do not have an agreed upon, legitimate leadership. That's a fact.

 

Hamas is not into talks with Israel, and does not subscribe to the points raised in the German FM's address. Also, the Hamas rejected the Saudi (Arab) Peace Initiative. Once more, trying to gloss over this won't change facts - this isn't solely do to Israel's stance. If Hamas was to reconcile with the PA while dropping the armed struggle and rejectionist stance, there wouldn't be a legitimate reason for the Israeli position. The propagandist reasoning on offer simply cannot address or accept this, even though is plain obvious.

 

And back to the same old chestnut about making peace only with the PA? How many times do we have to go through this? On a previous post in this topic, you claimed that permanent peace is the only kind worth having. Now you seem to tout a less permanent, less encompassing peace. Which is it, then? While at it, could you cite any substantial support for Abbas or the PA being in favor of binding negotiations and talks excluding issues pertaining to the Gaza Strip or the Hamas? Do you imagine that this faux separation on offer is a Palestinian negotiation position? Considering it would effectively annihilate any shred of legitimacy Abbas may still have as a national leader...I don't think so.

 

Abbas, even if he was so inclined, cannot or will not commit (let alone deliver) to the points raised in the German FM address. That he sometimes says this or that is all very fine, but the trouble is that there are almost always denials of things said, counter-statements, alternative interpertations and a whole lot of rhetoric which doesn't really seat well with the supposed peace talk. There's what Abbas says to the world, and there's what he says to the home crowd. Often not the same. Trying to paint it otherwise is nothing but at attempt to mislead.

 

Accordingly, the PA did not "make its position clear". The PA, under both Arafat and Abbas, refused or withheld response to actual offers. Conflating between statements and actual positions, and the will (or the capacity) to act on them is all very well for the purposes of posturing and propaganda. Even if the PA was ready and willing to act on such "positions", what would be the value of such, considering it cannot deliver and that it's legitimacy is unclear?

 

Before you spew more of the "too hard basket" type nonsense slogans - this is about acknowledging reality, rather than dabbling in falsehoods and make-believe. Pretending that things are simple does not make them so. Ignoring issues does not make them go away. Perhaps more appropriate to apply the "too hard basket" to your own refusal when it comes to addressing these realities.

 

I have no idea what the Trump administration supposed peace plan is like, and what it actually includes. Neither do you, for all of the guesswork and rumor presented as fact. As said on past topics, not holding my breath for a magic solution there.

 

As for your ongoing lame trolling attempt - I have actually commented, in-depth and on numerous topics, about the Israeli government's positions - whether actual or those issued for the sake of posturing, and the same is true with regard to opposition and non-government views. That you pretend otherwise is disingenuous, and is only aimed at covering your own inability (or unwillingness) to objectively discuss Palestinian positions in the same manner.

 

Not that there is much to recommend your interpretations and predictions, but I hope that you do realize that the "charade", at least with regard to your own presentation, is that the "miles apart" part applies all around. Similarly, and disregarding the pompous "fight for justice" bit, the "next phase" is mainly a figment of the imagination. Seems like you're more interested in perpetual struggle and strife, rather than focus on fact and reality.

 

>>Seems like you're more interested in perpetual struggle and strife, rather than focus on fact and reality.
...just the opposite.

Facts are the global community overwhelmingly rejects Israel's annexation of Jerusalem cheerled by the nutjobs in the White House. And the German FM has just put Israel on notice regarding its phony two state solution plan.

 

Last year the PA was nagging Trump to begin direct peace talks until he stabbed them in the back. 
Be interesting to see what new excuse willing-to-talk-peace-anytime-anyplace Netanyahu comes up with if an international peace conference emerges from Gabriel's visit...
Only if the Palestinians recognize Israel as the Jewish State.
Only if the USA is the facilitator.

 

Meanwhile Israel sleepwalks into an inevitable one state solution. That's the next messy phase (for both peoples), but the dark before the dawn will ultimately lead to the end of the hateful supremacist ideology of Zionism, when the two peoples can live in peace with lives akin to something most of us on this forum enjoy.

Edited February 5, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

So basically, you have nothing of substance to add, nothing factual that relates to the nonsense you post even.

 

The global community does not agree nor support many of Israel practices and policies in the context of the conflict. That, however is still a far cry from your own extreme positions, no matter how much you try to present otherwise or how many times you attempt to co-opt views and statements.

 

Re-hashing the same bit from your previous post, does not make it relevant or even verified. This was addressed earlier, without any meaningful response other than the usual waffle. And, of course, still no explanation on how the Abbas's PA can be a credible side to any negotiations, while its position and legitimacy are under doubt. That you refuse to acknowledge that, and while repeating the same old mantras over and over again, does not change facts.

 

Your  one-state nonsense was addressed on many posts and topics. It is disconnected from Palestinians aspirations and rhetoric. And the rosy future you paint is disconnected from the realities you habitually ignore or perhaps, just unfamiliar with. The insinuation that the Palestinians are all for peaceful, democratic, secular co-existence is not even a myth, but an out right plain lie.

 

As expected, yet another pointless rant rather than addressing actual issues. Whether this is due to ignorance or propagandist reasoning may be questioned.

[simple1]

41 minutes ago, dexterm said:

<snip>

Meanwhile Israel sleepwalks into an inevitable one state solution. That's the next messy phase (for both peoples), but the dark before the dawn will ultimately lead to the end of the hateful supremacist ideology of Zionism <snip>

In reality you're talking to genocide. IMO Morch is correct to reject you.

[dexterm]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

So basically, you have nothing of substance to add, nothing factual that relates to the nonsense you post even.

 

The global community does not agree nor support many of Israel practices and policies in the context of the conflict. That, however is still a far cry from your own extreme positions, no matter how much you try to present otherwise or how many times you attempt to co-opt views and statements.

 

Re-hashing the same bit from your previous post, does not make it relevant or even verified. This was addressed earlier, without any meaningful response other than the usual waffle. And, of course, still no explanation on how the Abbas's PA can be a credible side to any negotiations, while its position and legitimacy are under doubt. That you refuse to acknowledge that, and while repeating the same old mantras over and over again, does not change facts.

 

Your  one-state nonsense was addressed on many posts and topics. It is disconnected from Palestinians aspirations and rhetoric. And the rosy future you paint is disconnected from the realities you habitually ignore or perhaps, just unfamiliar with. The insinuation that the Palestinians are all for peaceful, democratic, secular co-existence is not even a myth, but an out right plain lie.

 

As expected, yet another pointless rant rather than addressing actual issues. Whether this is due to ignorance or propagandist reasoning may be questioned.

>>[previous post]Abbas, even if he was so inclined, cannot or will not commit (let alone deliver) to the points raised in the German FM address. 
>>And, of course, still no explanation on how the Abbas's PA can be a credible side to any negotiations, while its position and legitimacy are under doubt. 

...well, that's mighty strange, because just 2 days ago, 
"The Palestine Liberation Organization’s Executive Committee decided Saturday night to demand that the UN Security Council recognize a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders." [exactly same as OP EU position]
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/plo-to-demand-un-security-council-to-recognize-palestine-1.5787277

 

>>Your  one-state nonsense was addressed on many posts and topics. It is disconnected from Palestinians aspirations and rhetoric.
...another lie!

 "Nearly half of Israeli Jews and 60 percent of Palestinians believe settlements have expanded so much that the two-state solution is no longer feasible, according to the poll [Jan 25 2018]. Meanwhile, 48 percent of all Israelis believe the two-state solution is still viable, as opposed to 42 percent who do not."

https://972mag.com/support-for-two-states-drops-below-50-among-israelis-palestinians-alike/132682/

 

..the times are a changing.

 

As I have said previously, the one state solution is inevitable when two peoples are geographical neighbors for eternity with their history, religion and economies so intertwined.

 

Getting there via an initial two state solution is  preferable, in that it could build up trust over a few decades and for old sores to heal, for both sides to realize they are both much better off as friends than as enemies.

Edited February 5, 2018 by dexterm

[dexterm]

31 minutes ago, simple1 said:

In reality you're talking to genocide. IMO Morch is correct to reject you.

Genocide...wow!
That's rather an over the top description of people living together in a western secular democracy, same as the majority on this forum do. 

 

If you approve of the preferential apartheid treatment for one people in the right to citizenship, freedom of movement, freedom of speech, immigration, who they can marry, the right to live in their own homes...based purely on their religion, then I guess I can see where you are coming from.

Edited February 5, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

Hard to tell if you're clueless, feign ignorance while trying to mislead or plain trolling. Probably a mixture of all. Linking bits supposedly supporting your posts, but without context, is one of the usual dishonest ways in which you engage.

 

You are conflating between posturing and actual positions, never mind the realistic capacity to apply such "positions". The PA can declare whatever it feels like - as long as the Hamas (and other organizations) act independently, these pronunciations are essentially hollow. Most of these statements and declarations of intent are more of a response to domestic pressures and internal political struggles (pretty much the same happens on the Israeli political scene). Notably, even the link provided does not touch on all the points raised by the German FM - and obviously the same goes with regard to the the Saudi (Arab) Peace Initiative. So no, not "exactly the same" as the "OP EU position"(?) - just another misleading co-opting effort on your part.

 

This isn't a negotiation position, but a petulant, unilateral move, and ultimately a futile one. The PA cannot commit, cannot guarantee, cannot deliver and cannot vouch for anything much with regard to the the Hamas. It does not have the required stature to make the necessary adjustments and compromises - which is precisely why these issues do not feature in this statement. Making such announcements is nothing new, pretty  much a trademark of the PA by now, even Palestinians (or rather, especially Palestinians) do not take them too seriously.

 

With regard to your one-state nonsense, the key word was your. The way you tend to portray and paint this outcome got little to do with actual realities, trends and views. Even the link provided in this context does not support your pronunciations and predictions on this score.

 

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

There is nothing in your posts which explains the basis for applying "western secular democracy" to a one-state solution, considering existing attitudes, positions and realities. Nothing whatsoever. The "forum" analogy is inane - members do not live together in any meaningful sense, participation is optional, and that's beside the forum being governed by a non-democratic system.

 

What you are for, essentially, is the replacement of one problematical (and wrong) system with its opposite. That, while often chanting "two wrongs don't make a right".

[dexterm]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

Hard to tell if you're clueless, feign ignorance while trying to mislead or plain trolling. Probably a mixture of all. Linking bits supposedly supporting your posts, but without context, is one of the usual dishonest ways in which you engage.

 

You are conflating between posturing and actual positions, never mind the realistic capacity to apply such "positions". The PA can declare whatever it feels like - as long as the Hamas (and other organizations) act independently, these pronunciations are essentially hollow. Most of these statements and declarations of intent are more of a response to domestic pressures and internal political struggles (pretty much the same happens on the Israeli political scene). Notably, even the link provided does not touch on all the points raised by the German FM - and obviously the same goes with regard to the the Saudi (Arab) Peace Initiative. So no, not "exactly the same" as the "OP EU position"(?) - just another misleading co-opting effort on your part.

 

This isn't a negotiation position, but a petulant, unilateral move, and ultimately a futile one. The PA cannot commit, cannot guarantee, cannot deliver and cannot vouch for anything much with regard to the the Hamas. It does not have the required stature to make the necessary adjustments and compromises - which is precisely why these issues do not feature in this statement. Making such announcements is nothing new, pretty  much a trademark of the PA by now, even Palestinians (or rather, especially Palestinians) do not take them too seriously.

 

With regard to your one-state nonsense, the key word was your. The way you tend to portray and paint this outcome got little to do with actual realities, trends and views. Even the link provided in this context does not support your pronunciations and predictions on this score.

 

The usual flaming preamble.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) 

 

Hard to tell what you are referring to when you repeatedly fail to quote my post, which is against forum rules.

16) You will not make changes to quoted material from other members posts, except for purposes of shortening the quoted post. This cannot be done in such a manner that it alters the context of the original post.

 

No new points emerging except deflections, so I'll leave it there for now.

[dexterm]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

There is nothing in your posts which explains the basis for applying "western secular democracy" to a one-state solution, considering existing attitudes, positions and realities. Nothing whatsoever. The "forum" analogy is inane - members do not live together in any meaningful sense, participation is optional, and that's beside the forum being governed by a non-democratic system.

 

What you are for, essentially, is the replacement of one problematical (and wrong) system with its opposite. That, while often chanting "two wrongs don't make a right".

You have distorted my post again by failing to quote it in context (against forum rules).

I originally wrote: "Genocide...wow!
That's rather an over the top description of people living together in a western secular democracy, same as the majority on this forum do." 

 

Clearly I was referring to the countries we live in, where most forum members enjoy the benefits of a western secular democracy, not the forum... I visit here occasionally but I don't live here.

 

Maybe you don't live in a western secular democracy, hence your perhaps understandable confusion about the freedoms most of the people here enjoy.

 

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

Once more, there is no forum rule which compels quoting a post replied to, "in context" or otherwise. And I did not distort your post - but commented on your ongoing misleading presentation. If your post was as advertised, what does it have to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

 

Amazing you would go about "in context" while posting such deflections.

[simple1]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

Genocide...wow! <snip>

To quote your words...

 

"the dark before the dawn"

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply removed.