Smoke, Smog, Dust 2018 Chiang Mai

[Rimmer]

A post has been removed, this is already covered in a locked topic HERE

[Ruffian Dick]

It's beginning to dawn on me that it's very popular to blame hill tribes for the smog.

When I ride my bike across town, it's very obvious that there's little to no regulation of auto (or songthaew or tuk-tuk or motocy' for that matter) emissions. Thailand's auto emissions are enough to account for Chiang Mai's smog, especially when you take the area's topography into account.

Then look at the charcoal fires that are lit on every street corner to cook moo ping and Thailand's beloved street food. You're choking on it.

But it's safer to blame the hill people (Kayan, Hmong, etc.) and their age-old burning practices.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

So I guess the governor has now answered the request of his vassals for help in reducing local smog levels. And that's to go after the entity that organized the clean air petition.

 

[peperobi]

Enjoy is no t Chang Mai. The government must really do something against! Or maybe the SUPERCOP BIG JOKE!

[EnlightenedAtheist]

29 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

So I guess the governor has now answered the request of his vassals for help in reducing local smog levels. And that's to go after the entity that organized the clean air petition.

 

Yes, he has. He probably has an air purifier on top of the a/c machine in his office. From his vantage point, the problem does not exist, I guess, but putting a mask on pictures is a problem. It is all relative.

 

There is enough material for another Samuel Beckett's play here, but, correct me if I am wrong, ...

 

... logically, if dead people can have feelings (which I guess is how I interpret the complaint), then it follows that they could also be hurt by the smoke. There is no denying there is smog/smoke and there is no denying that it is bad for one's health, so, in essence, putting masks on them would be an act of caring for them. I wonder what would be their reaction if they were to come back and see what Chiang Mai has become.

 

However, the truth, the underlying reason for the complaint is that we would not want to tarnish the image of Chiang Mai  (or Thailand) as having a pristine environment. 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 minutes ago, peperobi said:

Enjoy is no t Chang Mai. The government must really do something against! Or maybe the SUPERCOP BIG JOKE!

 

 

I guess if I were to believe ONE poster here, I must assume your photos are from Myanmar. Because at least one person here keeps insisting there is no burning going on in CM!!!  

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

However, the truth, the underlying reason for the complaint is that we would not want to tarnish the image of Chiang Mai  (or Thailand) as having a pristine environment.

 

Well, I'd also say part might be that one topic we just can't talk about, and the other part might be just plain simple retribution.

 

[Lacessit]

4 hours ago, sanemax said:

Thats not the only positive .

I have found that I no longer have to buy cigarettes anymore , just go outside and breath in

So there's nicotine in the haze also? Well I never.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, peperobi said:

Enjoy is no t Chang Mai. The government must really do something against! Or maybe the SUPERCOP BIG JOKE!

 

What date did you take those photos, and what was the general location?  Thanks!

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, sanemax said:

Thats not the only positive .

I have found that I no longer have to buy cigarettes anymore , just go outside and breath in

 

Actually, there's been a lot of scientific research that draws correlations between the health impacts of rising PM2.5 levels compared to cigarette smoking.

 

http://berkeleyearth.org/air-pollution-and-cigarette-equivalence/

 

Quote

Put another way, 1 cigarette is equivalent to an air pollution of 22 μg/m³ for one day.

 

The annual average in BKK for PM2.5 is 26 mcg, so a bit more than 1 cigarette per day equivalent just from the air pollution for a non smoker. CM supposedly has about the same annual average, but has higher peaks of pollution during the current burning season compared to BKK.

 

Quote

 

In this memo, we will derive the rough value of conversion, so people can think of air pollution in terms of cigarettes equivalent. The sole goal of this calculation is to help give people an appreciation for the health effects of air pollution. We will also discuss the apparent discrepancy with Arden Pope (now resolved), which stems from our comparing the health impacts of cigarettes, rather than the amount of PM_2.5 (the most deadly pollutant) delivered.

In summary, we find that air pollution can be approximated as cigarettes equivalent as follows:

Air Pollution Location	Equivalent in cigarettes per day
US, average	0.4
EU, average	1.6
China, average	2.4
Beijing, average	4.0
Handan, average	5.5
Beijing, bad day	25.0
Harbin, very bad day	45.0
Shenyang, worst recorded	63.0

 

 

Lately though, if you accept the above methodology, the CM smog has been the equivalent of up to 4 or more cigarettes per day for every man, woman and child in the area.

 

 

http://berkeleyearth.lbl.gov/air-quality/local/Thailand/Chiang_Mai

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, Ruffian Dick said:

It's beginning to dawn on me that it's very popular to blame hill tribes for the smog.

When I ride my bike across town, it's very obvious that there's little to no regulation of auto (or songthaew or tuk-tuk or motocy' for that matter) emissions. Thailand's auto emissions are enough to account for Chiang Mai's smog, especially when you take the area's topography into account.

Then look at the charcoal fires that are lit on every street corner to cook moo ping and Thailand's beloved street food. You're choking on it.

But it's safer to blame the hill people (Kayan, Hmong, etc.) and their age-old burning practices.

 

I'm not saying which people/groups are burning more than any other people/groups. But if you read the recent Greenpeace report on air pollution in Thailand, it's pretty clear that open agricultural burning is the VASTLY largest cause of PM2.5 pollution here -- more than cars, industrial pollution, etc etc. In fact, it's listed as being a larger source than all the other category sources combined.

 

 

 

[orang37]

7 hours ago, LolaS said:

How far you can allow yourself to be ignorant, with all internet and information that are there to think Chiang Mai is pristine???

 

8 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

.. logically, if dead people can have feelings (which I guess is how I interpret the complaint), then it follows that they could also be hurt by the smoke.

 

Asked and answered. :)

 

~o:37;

[canopy]

LolaS that map does not appear accurate. There are many discrepancies. Let's take for instance Khon Ken has the worst air quality of all stations in Thailand at the moment yet it's in the white zone on your graph. Can you explain this? What is the source for that map?

 

 

 

[cmsally]

Quote

 

 

Lola do you have a source for the map that you posted ?

I trawled through some Thai Facebook posts and came up with the same map and 1 person gave credits to this web address

https://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/aerosol_web/7seas/7seas.html

 

However this link doesn't work (or at least it didn't for me). There was also a link to a CMU student in credits, so maybe there is a possibility they used data from "Naval research laboratory Monterey" (which the link is for) in order to do their own project on fires etc. Hence this could be their map rather than the actual websites map. I'm sure, having posted this map as "facts" you would have further info on this to clear up any confusion.

 

 

[bubba]

https://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/aerosol_web/7seas/7seas.html

 

Works for me.

[cmsally]

25 minutes ago, bubba said:

https://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/aerosol_web/7seas/7seas.html

 

Works for me.

For me the connection keeps timing out. Just tried it again and again timed out.

[peperobi]

15 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I guess if I were to believe ONE poster here, I must assume your photos are from Myanmar. Because at least one person here keeps insisting there is no burning going on in CM!!!  

I even don't know where is Myanmar..., I took those pics yesterday near Nakhon Sawan around 500 meters from my house, here is every day that situation for months every year!

[peperobi]

13 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

What date did you take those photos, and what was the general location?  Thanks!

 

Yesterday at around 4 pm around 500 meters from my house, Ban Makluea, Nakhon Sawan!

[EnlightenedAtheist]

I have a friend who has told me that his neighbours' trash (plastic and all) is being burnt on occasion. He told them to stop --politely-- even offering to pay for the trash removal expenses, but to no avail. It keeps happening. I guess they are now mad at the foreigner for deflating their ego or creating problems that are so minute he is the insane person. It seems that some do not have the foggiest (pun intended) idea of what they are causing to themselves or to others. Any pesticide residue in the trash? I guess, no one has told them that those particles enter the bloodstream and their brain. I guess no one has the guts to tell anyone for fear of retaliation, which seems to be part of the culture here --and as we have seen very recently -- all the way to the top. Mind you, the older one gets, the more set in one's ways one is, no matter what nationality you are or where one lives. This belief that elders must be respected because they are is also preventing progress, but not just in Thailand. Young and poor people must wai,... Rich and older folks not so much.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

17 hours ago, Ruffian Dick said:

When I ride my bike across town, it's very obvious that there's little to no regulation of auto (or songthaew or tuk-tuk or motocy' for that matter) emissions. Thailand's auto emissions are enough to account for Chiang Mai's smog, especially when you take the area's topography into account.

Then look at the charcoal fires that are lit on every street corner to cook moo ping and Thailand's beloved street food. You're choking on it.

 

No.

 

Hint 1: if it's all the cars then surely a place with minimal traffic would be much better right? (Wrong.)

 

Hint 2: if it's all the cars then surely it would be just as bad or worse on work days during the school season right? (Wrong.)

 

Note that I'm not saying that therefore hill tribe people are to blame, just that forest fires and agricultural fires are the cause.

 

BTW, noticed that today is relatively better?  Big drop in fires in the region in the last 48 hours: 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

45 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Mind you, the older one gets, the more set in one's ways one is, no matter what nationality you are or where one lives.

 

Yes, I believe that as we get older, we tend to get set in our ways. BUT, that doesn't mean we can't learn and change and adapt. Look at me!!!

 

A year ago, I don't think I'd ever heard of PM2.5 and wouldn't have had any idea what it was about. Likewise, never really paid any attention to smog here in Thailand, espec. since there's not a lot of overt open burning going on it BKK.

 

Now, today, I've got an air purifier in my living room, another air purifier in my bedroom, both running whenever I'm in either room, I've got Filtrete sheets on both of my air con units' filters, and I've got a box of 3M masks for wearing outside when I'm outside and the smog is anywhere near the unhealthy levels. But, I'm a reasonably educated soul with a lifelong habit and interest in learning new things.

 

The question is -- what proportion of the Thai population has the interest, ability and willingness to educate themselves and adapt in the same kinds of ways. That part, I'm not so sure about. Environmental interest and awareness doesn't seem to be a very high priority here.

 

[bubba]

I did a drive from Chiang Mai to Phitsanulok and back last week. The air was horrible the whole way with poor visibility. But still, I can't even remember how many people I saw burning rubbish or leaves out in front of their houses. Some were just smouldering and putting out copious amounts of smoke. I saw one guy that brought out a chair to sit in from of his burning leaves so he could play with his fire.

 

I mean...seriously...

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

More fallout in the news today:

 

Quote

Due to smoke problem from forest fires which usually takes place in the morning for flights in northern provinces, he said the airline would reschedule the morning flights for the routes to Tak, Lampang, Mae Hong Son and Loei to the afternoon.

 

 

[LolaS]

16 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

You need to read the prior poster's comment more clearly. He wasn't saying he believed CM had a pristine environment.

 

He was saying the local government has a strong interest in maintaining the FALSE IMPRESSION that it does in the interest of not diminishing tourism.

 

 

but they never had this reputation. South East asia pristine? I think we are confusing with Amazon. I remeber my primary school when we learn about Jakarta and BKK as most poluted cities, 20 years ago!!! even more

 

[HaleySabai]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

More fallout in the news today:

 

 

 

Early evening yesterday I had to wonder why within one hour I heard 5 passenger planes circle about out here in Mae Rim,normally we get 1 or 2 per day going to Chiang Rai. Thought it was either congestion or perhaps a visibility issue....????

[metisdead]

A post containing a link to Bangkok Post has been removed:

 

26) The Bangkok Post and Phuketwan do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post or Phuketwan publications will be deleted from the forum.

These restrictions are put in place by the above publications, not Thaivisa.com
In rare cases, forum Administrators or the news team may use these sources under special permission.
 

 

Please discuss the topic which is about Smoke, Smog and Dust, rather than making personal attacks on other posters.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Yes, I believe that as we get older, we tend to get set in our ways. BUT, that doesn't mean we can't learn and change and adapt. Look at me!!!

 

A year ago, I don't think I'd ever heard of PM2.5 and wouldn't have had any idea what it was about. Likewise, never really paid any attention to smog here in Thailand, espec. since there's not a lot of overt open burning going on it BKK.

 

Now, today, I've got an air purifier in my living room, another air purifier in my bedroom, both running whenever I'm in either room, I've got Filtrete sheets on both of my air con units' filters, and I've got a box of 3M masks for wearing outside when I'm outside and the smog is anywhere near the unhealthy levels. But, I'm a reasonably educated soul with a lifelong habit and interest in learning new things.

 

The question is -- what proportion of the Thai population has the interest, ability and willingness to educate themselves and adapt in the same kinds of ways. That part, I'm not so sure about. Environmental interest and awareness doesn't seem to be a very high priority here.

 

Wow! Good for you! you are rare breed!

 

I was wearing a mask the other day as I was playing a sport. I was the only one, naturally. The Thais thought it was really funny. I could not quite get what they were laughing about, but I am sure that it was either the look of it (it is one of those heavy duty 3M filter, not the cheaper masks they sell here, or the fact I was wearing one. Then, the next day, one Thai biologist wore one. I have been playing since for many reasons. Are Europeans wearing masks now, now that some know that diesel exhaust is not as clean as they were led to believe?

 

There are few Thais that do wear masks. They really should when they drive the scooters. Still, how many do wear the better ones? I have not seen one. Their physiognomy is different, so the cheaper ones might not be as bad a fit as it is for us. Still, is the fabric okay?

 

As I stated, the neighbours of a friend of mine routinely burn stuff. He has offered for trash removal services for ALL his neighbours and they do not want it. Maybe they are not able to get it. Maybe the earth is really flat.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Another example from "pristine", "non-burning" CM:

 

Quote

According to records of daily averages this week from the PCD, the PM2.5 level in Chiang Mai reached the highest level yesterday of 80.06 micrograms.

The severe haze problem in the province coincided with a rapid increase in hotspots within the province. The Thailand Fire Monitoring System of Geo-Informatics and Space Technology Development Agency detected 17 hotspots on Tuesday.

 

 

[bubba]

1 hour ago, HaleySabai said:

Early evening yesterday I had to wonder why within one hour I heard 5 passenger planes circle about out here in Mae Rim,normally we get 1 or 2 per day going to Chiang Rai. Thought it was either congestion or perhaps a visibility issue....????

I noticed that they reversed the landing and departing runways last evening due to the strong south wind that kicked up. That is, they usually do landings on RWY 36, but they switched it to RWY 18. That stacks things up a bit and aircraft can be put into hold for a few minutes until they get everybody sorted out, and the landing approach may have taken them over where you are in Mae Rim as well.