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Gun restraining order might have thwarted Florida shooting - experts

webfact

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webfact Grand Master Member

webfact

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Gun restraining order might have thwarted Florida shooting - experts

By Tina Bellon and Jan Wolfe

 

2018-02-15T231009Z_1_LYNXNPEE1E23K_RTROPTP_4_FLORIDA-SHOOTING.JPG

A message about grief counseling appears on an electronic signboard at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School one day after a shooting at the school left 17 dead, in Parkland, Florida, U.S., February 15, 2018. REUTERS/Jonathan Drake

 

(Reuters) - A few U.S. states have laws allowing police and family members to obtain orders barring people suspected of being a threat from possessing guns, but Florida does not. Some gun control proponents and legal experts said Wednesday's school shooting might have been thwarted if it had.

 

Suspected shooter Nikolas Cruz's history of violence in school and disturbing social media posts would have allowed authorities to prevent him from legally obtaining a firearm in California and Connecticut, which have gun violence restraining order (GVRO) statutes, the experts said.

 

The killing of 17 students and staff members at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, could give new momentum to such laws.

 

A federal GVRO law was proposed last year, and its supporters in Congress on Thursday urged its passage.

 

"Americans are grappling today with the fact that multiple warning signs failed to stop a young man from killing 17 students and teachers at a Florida school," said Representative Don Beyer, a Democrat from Virginia, in a statement.

 

The National Rifle Association and other groups have opposed such laws as violating gun owners' due process rights. A judge can issue an initial restraining order and confiscation of firearms without a hearing.

 

The NRA did not respond to a request for comment on Thursday.

 

Florida gun rights advocate Jon Gutmacher dismissed the idea that a GVRO law would have stopped the Parkland shooting.

 

"Intervention, counselling, and meaningful support are our only hope at preventing these things," he said.

 

A large number of states have laws allowing gun confiscation in cases involving suspected domestic violence or stalking offences. GVRO codes allow such an order to be issued when a person more broadly poses a risk to themselves or others.

 

Connecticut, Indiana and Texas allow law enforcement to seek such an order. California, Washington and Oregon extend the right to family, household members, and domestic partners.

 

The initial hearing takes place without the subject present, and the subject usually will not learn a restraining order has been issued until police contact them about turning over their guns. A hearing will then follow two or three weeks later, after which the order may be vacated or extended for up to a year.

 

Former classmates described Cruz, 19, as troubled and "crazy about guns" - talking a lot about firearms and knives.

 

One of the school’s math teachers told media that Cruz had been banned from returning to campus after he threatened students last year and that administrators sent an email to teachers, warning them about Cruz.

 

Cruz may have also left warning signs on social media. A person with his name wrote a comment last year under a YouTube video that read "I'm going to be a professional school shooter."

 

Cruz also participated in paramilitary training with a white nationalist militia called the Republic of Florida, a leader of the group said on Thursday.

 

If Cruz had lived in California, for example, a report by a household member or police officer would have been sufficient grounds for preventing Cruz from obtaining his AR-15 assault rifle, said John Donohue, a professor at Stanford Law School.

 

Cruz's YouTube comment was reported to the FBI in 2017 but FBI Special Agent in Charge Robert Lasky told reporters on Thursday that investigators were unable to find Cruz based on the comment.

 

The comment was likely too vague to trigger FBI action even if the agents had been able to locate him, said James Jacobs, a law professor at New York University School of Law.

 

Two Democratic lawmakers in Florida proposed GVRO bills for that state in October. Hearings have yet to take place, but Patricia Brigham, co-chair of the Florida Coalition to Prevent Gun Violence, said the proposals face long odds in a statehouse controlled by Republicans who tend to toe the NRA line.

 

Florida Governor Rick Scott's office did not respond to a call seeking comment.

 

"Florida should absolutely enact one ASAP," said Kris Brown, co-president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, one of the largest gun control groups. "If one had been in place in this case, we do believe it would have had the potential to save lives."

 

(Reporting by Tina Bellon and Jan Wolfe; Editing by Anthony Lin and Grant McCool)

 
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-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-02-16
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RandG Explorer Member

RandG

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1 hour ago, HappyinNE said:

Might it not be smart to train school teachers in the use of handguns and then arm them while on the job.  All of these other BS laws are not working quit wasting the time playing games and solve the problem.

Perhaps teachers joined the profession to teach, and not become part of a paramilitary defence force.

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cornishcarlos Platinum Member

cornishcarlos

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1 hour ago, HappyinNE said:

Might it not be smart to train school teachers in the use of handguns and then arm them while on the job.  All of these other BS laws are not working quit wasting the time playing games and solve the problem.

 

Yup, more guns...

Arm every student, parent and bus drivers too.

Only one way to stop shootings, arm everyone !!!!!

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natway09 Platinum Member

natway09

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I will say it again

NO civilian needs nor should have the right to own a semi or automatic weapon

If needed for a necessary task they could be rented from the armed forces after very thourough

scrutiny    (as I have done)

USA will not take the blinkers off

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thaibeachlovers Star Member

thaibeachlovers

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, HappyinNE said:

Might it not be smart to train school teachers in the use of handguns and then arm them while on the job.  All of these other BS laws are not working quit wasting the time playing games and solve the problem.

Apparently many of the teachers are legal to use firearms but school policy does not allow them to have on school property, so left at home, where they were unable to be used to save lives.

 

What occurs to me about yet another display of mass grief after this atrocity is that while there is an outpouring of "solutions" over 17 deaths in Florida, apparently no one cares about the HUNDREDS of gun deaths in Chicago and other cities with high crime rates, even though those cities have the most severe gun laws in the country.

Edited by thaibeachlovers
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thaibeachlovers Star Member

thaibeachlovers

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20 minutes ago, natway09 said:

I will say it again

NO civilian needs nor should have the right to own a semi or automatic weapon

If needed for a necessary task they could be rented from the armed forces after very thourough

scrutiny    (as I have done)

USA will not take the blinkers off

There is a need, which the founding fathers foresaw, to arm the populace, but if you don't know what it is I am not going to educate you about it. You can do research as easily as I.

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thaibeachlovers Star Member

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5 hours ago, webfact said:

Florida gun rights advocate Jon Gutmacher dismissed the idea that a GVRO law would have stopped the Parkland shooting.

 

"Intervention, counselling, and meaningful support are our only hope at preventing these things," he said.

Someone with a sensible suggestion.

Disarmament is not going to happen.

Arming everyone probably wouldn't work in the US ( it works in Switzerland though ).

Intervention, counselling, and meaningful support work, but the conversation is all about gun control and sensible ideas get lost in the uproar.

 

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dick dasterdly Senior Member

dick dasterdly

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12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There is a need, which the founding fathers foresaw, to arm the populace, but if you don't know what it is I am not going to educate you about it. You can do research as easily as I.

I'm not an American, and was always horrified by the lax US gun laws - until an American friend pointed out the possible need to arm against draconian (home) governments.

 

Even so, those with a history of 'aggression issues' should obviously not be allowed to legally own guns, but it's a difficult subject as the violently inclined will still find a way to buy weapons :sad:.

Edited by dick dasterdly
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Enoon Gold Member

Enoon

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1 hour ago, doggie1955 said:

In a DUI, we blame the driver... In a bombing, we blame the bomber... In a shooting, we blame the gun?

 

No, guns in the hands of the wrong people.

 

ie Everyone who doesn't need them for legitimate "work".

 

Or who are not part of a "Well Regulated Militia".

 

There you are, that's your New Improved 2nd Amendment.

 

"It's Traditional aaand New!"

 

 

Edited by Enoon
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thaibeachlovers Star Member

thaibeachlovers

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1 minute ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

Not armed with automatic guns though, maybe ??

Absolutely. There is no point arming the population with muskets as a bulwark against government dictatorship if the government has machine guns.

The founding fathers had no illusions when it comes to governments exceeding their legitimate power. After all, they had just fought a war against their LEGAL government.

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Enoon Gold Member

Enoon

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The constitution disagrees with you. If people don't like it, change the constitution.

The founding fathers wanted an armed populace.

 

Exactly, it needs changing.

 

The 2nd amendment needs repealing, just as the 18th was by the 21st.

 

It only requires a procedure.

 

The "founding fathers", who also condoned slavery and owned slaves, are long dead.

 

 

 

 

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Jonnapat Advanced Member

Jonnapat

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1 hour ago, Enoon said:

 

Exactly, it needs changing.

 

The 2nd amendment needs repealing, just as the 18th was by the 21st.

 

It only requires a procedure.

 

The "founding fathers", who also condoned slavery and owned slaves, are long dead.

 

 

 

 

As long as the NRA is in control of so many politicians there is zero chance of any change.

Search online for the list of politicians receiving upwards of 3 million dollars for the 2016 election campaign from the NRA. You would be amazed, or perhaps not!

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observer90210 Gold Member

observer90210

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Would a gun ban prevent such carnage in US schools ? Maybe yes, maybe not ?...the problem could lie deeper...

 

Any individual grabbing a weapon and endulging in mass shooting is obviously not in a normal state of mind.

 

The shooter was a former student in the school as most of the school shooters have been.  What happened during his period in that school ? Was he picked on ? Was he bullied ? Did he have to go through humiliating hazing rituals ? Did all this lead to hate and frustrations towards his peers ? 

 

It could be interesting to explore this path and perhaps enforce strict and unconditionnal rules on interactions and behaviour between students and their peers, within school boundries. Extra pre-screening by teachers could also be useful to detect and counsel the more introvert personnalities who can become potential prey for bullying or being singled out by their peers.

 

Baning guns sure...it sounds sensible and politically correct. But any deranged individual on a personnal vendetta of hate, will always find the means to acquire any kind of weapon to meet his ends.

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Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, doggie1955 said:

In a DUI, we blame the driver... In a bombing, we blame the bomber... In a shooting, we blame the gun?

Depends on the gun. Why was a mentally ill 18 year old (or ANY 18 year old) able to legally buy an AR-15 rapid mass murdering machine in Florida when he couldn't even buy a beer there until 21? Hmm? 

Can anyone SANE really defend the need for the general public to have those kinds of weapons? Ruling out NRA types. I said SANE. 

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thaibeachlovers Star Member

thaibeachlovers

Posted
Posted (edited)
On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:00 AM, observer90210 said:

Would a gun ban prevent such carnage in US schools ? Maybe yes, maybe not ?...the problem could lie deeper...

 

Any individual grabbing a weapon and endulging in mass shooting is obviously not in a normal state of mind.

 

The shooter was a former student in the school as most of the school shooters have been.  What happened during his period in that school ? Was he picked on ? Was he bullied ? Did he have to go through humiliating hazing rituals ? Did all this lead to hate and frustrations towards his peers ? 

 

It could be interesting to explore this path and perhaps enforce strict and unconditionnal rules on interactions and behaviour between students and their peers, within school boundries. Extra pre-screening by teachers could also be useful to detect and counsel the more introvert personnalities who can become potential prey for bullying or being singled out by their peers.

 

Baning guns sure...it sounds sensible and politically correct. But any deranged individual on a personnal vendetta of hate, will always find the means to acquire any kind of weapon to meet his ends.

They can't even stop bullying, so how do you suggest they "enforce strict and unconditionnal rules on interactions and behaviour between students and their peers, within school boundries."?

There are apparently 3,000+ students in that school, so how to monitor all of them every minute of the school day?

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