What Would You Do?

[ThaiPauly]

At the begining of November we decided to build n extension on the back of our house to provide us with an extra bedroom,bathroom and a steam room.

The guy that we contracted to build it has been cleaning our pool three times a week for the last 2 years. He told us he had a building company as well and could offer a good price which he did

Now you may say "Well if you will use your pool cleaner to build an extension you are asking for trouble" which is a fair point..but we have known him a ling time and he is a smart,affable guy and the plans he had drawn up looked very professional.

Anyway they started on 11th Novemeber and told us all would be finished by 11th December..well in time for Xmas as we were expecting a lot of people.

11th December came and went....eventually we moved into our new bedroom on 24th December but many things were unfinished. mainly in the bathroom.

We said "OK well come back and finish it off after January 3rd"when all my guests were going.

We have given him staggered payments..he wanted another payment before Xmas as he said he was loosing money on the job. I said no..and said that if he had spent more time here instead of on another project in Mae Rim the job would have been finished on time and within his budget...as he only spent about 10% of the build time here it was no surprise to me that they made so many mistakes that had to be rectified ..plus his staff were not motivated in any way when he was not here.

Anyway...since January 10th they have come one day. The job is 99% complete. But we have no water in the bathroom so we cannot use it (obviously).

He snuck in to clean the pool on Saturday morning and said he would be back with his staff later...of course they nevere came.

Personally I want to tell him to **** off, but my wife is loathe to do it as he is "Chiang Mai People" and therefore she does not want to put us at risk from any reprisals if I dont pay him the rest of his money.

These are the choices I think I have and am posting this in the hope that somebody might give me some others or agree with one of the 4 options below.

1. When he next comes to clean the pool Pay him what I owe him and get the gate key back and tell him that he is no longer reqired..then pay someone else to sort the water.

2. get the key back and tell him to bugger off and NOT pay him anything as he has not finished the job.

3. Get someone to fix he water and deduct whatever it costs and give him the balance and tell him to get lost.

4. Do nothing..wait till he comes and finishes the job..pay him then tell him to get lost.

The problem with just waiting is ..thats what we have to do..we cannot go anywhere in case they turn up and do not want to leave them alone in the house with just the maid watching them. I wanted to take my Wife away for her birthday as I do every year,,but this year we just had to wait! when we call him his phone is on voice mailbox.

I am sure he wants to finish it as I owe him 57,000 baht..no small amount by anybodys reckoning. But I just do not understand why he does not do a maximum of one more days work to finish the job and get his dosh?

With the majority of these options its gonna mean upsetting him....and I obviously worry about our safety as his Men are pretty mean looking workers...who obviuosly dont like us becasue we are always complaining. I know that the Electrician, the only person that has been of help to us , has not been paid anything yet...maybee nor have the staff if his excuse is that "Farang not pay me" ..but I have paid him upon the agreed stages of completion...There are countless cock-ups which had to be rectified. If I specified them all this post would be even longer than it already is.

I dont think he will care much about loosing his job as our pool cleaner as things are bound to go wrong with his work and he wont want to be bothered to fix them so I am sure he would prefer to stay away.

Now I have posted this he is bound to turn up today

Anyway if you have any thoughts or have found yourself in a similar situation please feel free to add your response.

Cheers

TP

[BlissfullyIgnorant]

Get a quote from someone else to finish the job (shouldn't have many problems getting referrals here on TV), then give him the ultimatum - finish it within x days (whatever you think is a reasonable time frame), or you have no choice but to get someone else to do it, and to deduct the other contractors fees from the balance owed.

It's a difficult situation for your Thai wife to handle for sure, but if presented the right way it should come across as fair and equitable. Failing that, just pay him off and cut your losses - without a contract you've no leg to stand on unfortunately.

[londonthai]

go for 3 - but I wouldn't pay all the money straith, let him wait for a month or two, just in case you will find later some mistakes which you haven't spotted so far

[BlissfullyIgnorant]

Just recalled a similar situation a friend found himself in - same story where a house extension has gone over time and budget, and a stand-off was on the cards. The resolution in that case was to contract the guy to do an additional extension so he could make up for what had been lost. In the end, said friend probably paid an extra 20 or 30K Baht, but everyone walked away happy. A little unconventional and counter-intuitive, but it worked for him.

[mongoose]

Get a quote from someone else to finish the job (shouldn't have many problems getting referrals here on TV), then give him the ultimatum - finish it within x days (whatever you think is a reasonable time frame), or you have no choice but to get someone else to do it, and to deduct the other contractors fees from the balance owed.

It's a difficult situation for your Thai wife to handle for sure, but if presented the right way it should come across as fair and equitable. Failing that, just pay him off and cut your losses - without a contract you've no leg to stand on unfortunately.

I like the above but would add, when he comes back to complete the work, he must bring at least x (2,3,4) men and have x men there working everyday untill it is done.

Careful about paying him too much before you get someone to finish it because there may be more than meets the eye. If water is not working there may be problem with pipe, clean water or drain, and that may mean opening up wall and/or floor to fix it and then redoing including possibly tile.

In any case, it sounds like you are holding a lot of money back, and you might consider paying him part of that to get it going. I know you are not happy but you could in fairness give him half of what you owe and still have enough to cover finishing it, couldn't you? He could be thinking you are not going to pay him any more even if he does finish it if he knows you are dissatisfied.

Also, try not to tell him to bugger off.

[BlissfullyIgnorant]

More random thoughts on this..

If the builder says he's losing money, and you don't see him very often, then I'd say he's not lying.

If he's losing (or stands to lose) money on the job, his motivation level is going to be extremely low.

Unlike larger outfits, there's a very real possibility he simply can't afford the loss. Forget about reputation or face - if he doesn't have the money, there's nothing he can do.

The most important aspect of any business deal is that everyone "wins". In this case you get what you want, and he makes a profit.

Thai contractors rarely quote adequately/accurately.

There's always unforseen pitfalls in any construction job, both sides ought to expect something to go wrong.

If he was a western contractor, he probably would have seen it coming and submitted an adjustment, but he's not.

The most unfortunate fact of the matter is that the quiality has been sub-standard by your expectations. His expectations are probably lower, leading to misunderstandings and frustration on both sides.

Thai contractors will listen to your suggestions and requirements, then duly ignore them as they know better.

With all that said, if the suggestion above (give him more work) isn't feasible, I'd probably re-negatiate the quote, increasing it to a level where he at least covers his expenses and you get the job done. Just sit him down and say "OK, how much do you need?". The way I see it, this is the only amicable resolution - the bottom line is that it's just what it really costs to get your extension done, regardless of what he quoted you orginally.

As for quality (or lack of it), this is to be expected IMHO. I always make myself abundantly clear on my expectations before any work begins, and even then I still get my wife to *really* warn them that I am incredibly picky - it usually results in a higher quote, but at the end of the job everyone's happy. Our expectations *are* higher, and you have to pay for that.

[ThaiPauly]

Excellent replies thank you.

yes of course I am very fussy, and his quote was very low, something like 280,000 baht to include all building materials ,paving, doors windows, etc..all we had to pay for was the steam room and the bath and fittings.

Back home you would have to take out a second mortgage to get something like this built.

He thought he could make money on the steam room...once we had his price we negotatiated a better deal with the same company -thus cutting him out.

They left the bathroom floor covered in cement and paint...I think he was very concerned that he would have to re-tile the whole floor, but I managed to get all the marks out with a pressure washer.

I dont like it either that he has lost money...but it really is his own fault, he was biting off more than he could chew doing two jobs at the same time..any good businessman knows that you should finish one job properly before starting the next ,but I guess he did not want to loose the job.

Blissfully Ignorant, You are right when you say that everyone should walk away happy. It should be a "Win Win" situation. In fact I cant help but agree with all your remarks

Having read what has been posted I would be happy to cover his losses, if we could pin him down to get the job completed..but again ,no sign of him and he normally comes to clean the pool at 7.30am on a Monday.

Thanks for all the replies so far..they have been very useful.

[BlissfullyIgnorant]

Having read what has been posted I would be happy to cover his losses, if we could pin him down to get the job completed..but again ,no sign of him and he normally comes to clean the pool at 7.30am on a Monday.

Get your wife to call him (I'm sure he's got a phone!) and explain that you don't want him to lose money on job, so let's chat. I'm sure he'll come around, and in a better frame of mind too. Losing money (escpecially money you don't have) is always depressing!

[Ta22]

not sure if the work is done . but i would suggest payment by STAGE .

breaking down the process . into different Stages . - and once he complete a certian stage he get Payment for it ..

This way might motivate him .. and also slove some of his cash flow problem .. at the same time . if he did not do wlel on a certain stage you woul dnto lsoe out .. and can get someone else to do it ..

alot of work is delay . for simple cash flow problem . from the worker .

i face the same problem before i try to be cheap and got a cheap workshop to retore my classic cars .. i end up got to put up with his slow work for almost a 1 years . i learn my lesson . i end up paying much more .

now i don't trust thai worker as much as i used to trust them .

some big company is earning for a reason .

good luck and hope your work is compelete soon .

try to get anotehr Quote . or a few more Quote might turn out well atthe same time would put some pressure on the worker who is doing a lousy job

[ThaiPauly]

Thank you for your imput TA22 , but I did say the work was 99% complete and I did pay him in stages...he has only one more payment to come.

We tried calling him again this morning...but voice mailbox.

Some guys HAVE actually turned up this morning to complete the outside work...so he is definatley gonna want paying.

I feel sorry for him I really do...but I think his mind is elsewhere most of the time...his wife has left him with their child...but he is having an affair with another woman..so its hardly surprising really...however I have always worked on the principal that you leave your personal problems at home when you go to work...but I know thats easier said than done...but I have been married 4 times and have been in similar situations myself ...but always knew that without work I could not provide for my children. I am sure he needs money now more than ever !!

We will keep trying to contact him.

[maccaroni man]

i had the same type of thing happen in the end he asked for money to visit his family, leaving a balance due that would cover the cost of unfinished business. he never returned and the cost of finishing the job was more than i owed him. take the risk of making him angry cut your losses and have someone else finish the job and pay him the balance. good luck as this will fall into a "face" thing and there is no happy ending.

[BlissfullyIgnorant]

Send him an SMS? Wouldn't be a bad idea to pay him some of the remaining 57K as a guesture of good will either - never know, his phone just might start working again

[Ta22]

well . what i gonna say may not apply to everyone .

Since is 99% done i think it would be fair to give him at least 90% of the payment .

and hold the last 10 % till it done .

I know is his problem . and his delay and so on ..

but by creating more problem to the existing one - you would not slove the problem .

- help those who make you suffer , you might not in return get good deed from him .. but you know by helping him . you make a friends . and live in peace .

i had bad investment before and trusted the wrong person . and lose money .

what i do now is i helping that person to find a job .. and also provide him with chaces to make money .. so he can repay me back .

is like help him help you .

good luck

[chownah]

Is he losing money? 280,000 baht for an extension to a house containing a bedroom, bathroom and steam room (small room I assume)....how many square metres?....what was the material cost (do you have receipts)...should have been one months work....how many workers, how many days, how much per worker? Average pay is probably about 300 baht per worker (maybe less)....5 workers.....30 days.....45,000 baht? I don't know but seems like this entire act might be a way to try to get you to pay more money....which MIGHT be a reasonable thing....or it might not be reasonable and is simply a grab for money. As for the fact that it took longer.......well his workers "were not motivated".....so of course it will take longer!!!!.......sounds like you are going to pay for their lack of motivation!!!!.....if he can't keep his workers productive then of course he will lose money on a job....on ANY job.

Chownah

[ThaiPauly]

Well as I stated in my original post..it would be sod's law that after you all posting excellent replies to my situation...in he bowls at 10am.

We managed to sit him down with a list of all the outstanding little jobs to be done.

My Wife explained to him in no uncertain terms that I was not a "Bad Man" and that I actually WANT to pay him and am very sorry that he had lost money...but that was not my fault. eg he had a new window made for the steam room..forgetting he had taken one out somewhere else that was meant to go there..so he lost money on that....but recognises its his mistake. He said that he had been working on a project in Lamphun where he had lost 100 thousand baht...but admitted that he was still learning and making mistakes.

He appologised and we went round the house with the snag list and he has PROMISED to return with his men tomorrow...we have told him that if he does not show we will get someone else in to finish the job and cut the cost from what we owe him.

I did not give him any money since he says the job will be finished by Thursday so he can wait 3 more days (he has managed to get by for the last month without it-so a few more days should motivate him.)

I did however say that I would pay him extra for little jobs he has done that should have been included in the price but he says were not. I would like him to at least break even...however I am not a charity, when I was in business nobody gave me anything if I cocked up and it was my fault...sympathy yes...cash no! We have to learn from our mistakes as he is learning from his.

I think the lesson he has to learn here is: DONT QUOTE FARANG CHEAP----we expect a 100% job and are willing to pay for it. my wife told him this and he accepted it.

I am looking for that "Win Win" situation wherby he walks away a reasonably happy man, without any ill-will towards us and we ..at last are pleased with our house.

Now all we have to do is see if he turns up again tomorrow !!!!

I will keep you posted.

[mongoose]

Sounds like there is a good chance it will work out. Be careful about the thought he is loosing money on the job. That is often said and not always true. Bottom line for him is that he can now finish it up and get a big payment for a few more days work.

Often it is not so much about money for many of us, it is the run around, delays and double talk which make it difficult. There are a few straight contractors and sub contractors, is there any forum posting for their names or the possibility of one?